Calvin vs. Arminius

[His_disciple3]

you know my friend I am not here to say you said, I said, the people here have access to your post as well as mine. this ain't about you or me being right. it is about the Gospel, if any man or angel comes with another gospel let them be accursed, and we can either call upon the name of the Lord and be saved by Grace through faith. and encourage people to seek the Lord, for it clearly says to seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened. The Lord said behold I stand at the door knocking, if any man will open I will come and sup with Them, it didn't say that He would bust the door down, and make you eat with Him. three were bidden and refused, and they didn't get in. the scriptures says that us being evil know how to give good gifts to our chilren ( sorta blows your theory that we being men can't choose good, now don't it?) but it says that our Father even more so knows how to give the gift of the Holy Spirit TO THOSE THAT ASK! this is the gospel That i see from scriptures, so this is the Gospel that I preach, if you want to preach what you preach contrary to to this, then My friend you had better pray that you are right, for this is not about you or me. this is about souls, and doesn't the Bible say that if we see danger and don't warn them then their blood is on our hands.

And the evidence that God chose them before the foundation of the world is that they knock, and seek and believe. And you are right about someone preaching another gospel they are accursed. I praise God that He chose me before the foundation of the earth to reveal His Son IN ME.

and Isaiah 14:1 says that God has yet to choose Israel, see the thing that Calvinism and apparently you also is that you ommit a very key word in God choosing you before the foundation of the world, and that key word Is By His "FOREKNOWLEDGE" So either we have a contradiction in scriptures( which can't be), As in that God has yet to choose Israel after Isaiah was born or according to calvinism God chose Israel before time begin. so with no contradiction in scriptures then my conculsion of the matter is that calvinism has misunderstood "FOREKNOWLEDGE" and according to Isaiah 14:1 God did not elect then judge but rather judged then elected By His "FOREKNOWLEDGE" of the Judgement.

[

quote]no. my friend calvinism makes God a respect of persons.

How so?

all have sin by the sin of one (Adam) all will fall but according to calvinism all will not be given the chance to be redeemed.

all have sinned, but God won't give all the equal chance to be redeemed, from the curse of a sin nature!

Why does He have to? He did not give the angels that fell a second chance.

Because He has some charactoristics that make Him whom He is, and He can not waiver from these qualities, He is a JUST GOD, one without respect of persons concerning His judgement, if he redeems just by simply picking you are in and I am out, (ALL have sinned) then His judgement for your sins was different from his Judgement toward my sins, for the wages of sin is death, But the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. He is just! If He allows you in, then He must give me the same chance. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and as I see scriptures He gives mercy to those that ask, call upon the name of the Lord and thy shall be saved. but calvinism will tell the sovereign God that He can't allow us to call upon Him that he must force some to or no one would ever love Him( that in around about way; forcing your love on someone who don't want. it is abuse or could even be called a type of rape) that is not God of the scriptures as I see Him. and He can not lie, if He word says that if I believe then I am saved and if I don't believe then I am condemned already, this goes back to the forceful god, will he allow some to believe or does he force some to believe, He says to ask and it shall be given, a gift is a gift you can't earn it, if you buy it then it is not a gift, but one can ask for a gift, I want heaven over hell, and if it is given it is still a gift. then He said in His word that Christ was the propitiation for the WHOLE world

[larryt]

Because He has some charactoristics that make Him whom He is, and He can not waiver from these qualities, He is a JUST GOD, one without respect of persons concerning His judgement, if he redeems just by simply picking you are in and I am out, (ALL have sinned) then His judgement for your sins was different from his Judgement toward my sins, for the wages of sin is death, But the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.

All men are judged the same. All are condemned in Adam. All men deserve the death penalty. If the Governor decides based on his own will to pardon someone on death row, does he have to pardon everyone. No he only pardons whom he chooses. It is not a matter of God just picking someone to not judge them and picking others to judge. We are all judged and found guilty. All on the way to be put to death. Because He loved me and foreknew me He predestinated me to be conformed to Jesus Christ. Those He predestinated He called and whom He called He justified. And those He justified He glorified. My debt was paid. Are you saying that God is unjust in making some vessels for honor and some fitted for wrath?Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

He is just! If He allows you in, then He must give me the same chance. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy,

Why must he give you any chance at all if His mercy is given according to His will and not man's will.

and as I see scriptures He gives mercy to those that ask, call upon the name of the Lord and thy shall be saved. but calvinism will tell the sovereign God that He can't allow us to call upon Him that he must force some to or no one would ever love Him( that in around about way; forcing your love on someone who don't want.

You have a faulty understanding of what Calvin taught. God never makes someone love Him. All who love God do so because they want to. The fact that they want to shows that God gave them grace. None of us would ever ask or call to God unless He removes the stoney heart and gives us a heart of flesh.

I mentioned at the out set that man does not come to a knowledge of Christ through doctrine. You can argue doctrine all day long and never come to a knowledge of the truth. You come to doctrine through knowing Jesus Christ. You are arguing against strawmen. Ideas you have that are based on erroneous conclusions.

if He word says that if I believe then I am saved and if I don't believe then I am condemned already,

This is exactly what scripture says.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[His_disciple3]

Because He has some charactoristics that make Him whom He is, and He can not waiver from these qualities, He is a JUST GOD, one without respect of persons concerning His judgement, if he redeems just by simply picking you are in and I am out, (ALL have sinned) then His judgement for your sins was different from his Judgement toward my sins, for the wages of sin is death, But the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.

All men are judged the same. All are condemned in Adam. All men deserve the death penalty. If the Governor decides based on his own will to pardon someone on death row, does he have to pardon everyone. No he only pardons whom he chooses. It is not a matter of God just picking someone to not judge them and picking others to judge. We are all judged and found guilty. All on the way to be put to death. Because He loved me and foreknew me He predestinated me to be conformed to Jesus Christ. Those He predestinated He called and whom He called He justified. And those He justified He glorified. My debt was paid. Are you saying that God is unjust in making some vessels for honor and some fitted for wrath?Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

He is just! If He allows you in, then He must give me the same chance. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy,

Why must he give you any chance at all if His mercy is given according to His will and not man's will.

and as I see scriptures He gives mercy to those that ask, call upon the name of the Lord and thy shall be saved. but calvinism will tell the sovereign God that He can't allow us to call upon Him that he must force some to or no one would ever love Him( that in around about way; forcing your love on someone who don't want.

You have a faulty understanding of what Calvin taught. God never makes someone love Him. All who love God do so because they want to. The fact that they want to shows that God gave them grace. None of us would ever ask or call to God unless He removes the stoney heart and gives us a heart of flesh.

I mentioned at the out set that man does not come to a knowledge of Christ through doctrine. You can argue doctrine all day long and never come to a knowledge of the truth. You come to doctrine through knowing Jesus Christ. You are arguing against strawmen. Ideas you have that are based on erroneous conclusions.

if He word says that if I believe then I am saved and if I don't believe then I am condemned already,

This is exactly what scripture says.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Because He has some charactoristics that make Him whom He is, and He can not waiver from these qualities, He is a JUST GOD, one without respect of persons concerning His judgement, if he redeems just by simply picking you are in and I am out, (ALL have sinned) then His judgement for your sins was different from his Judgement toward my sins, for the wages of sin is death, But the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.

All men are judged the same. All are condemned in Adam. All men deserve the death penalty. If the Governor decides based on his own will to pardon someone on death row, does he have to pardon everyone. No he only pardons whom he chooses. It is not a matter of God just picking someone to not judge them and picking others to judge. We are all judged and found guilty. All on the way to be put to death. Because He loved me and foreknew me He predestinated me to be conformed to Jesus Christ. Those He predestinated He called and whom He called He justified. And those He justified He glorified. My debt was paid. Are you saying that God is unjust in making some vessels for honor and some fitted for wrath?Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

He is just! If He allows you in, then He must give me the same chance. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy,

Why must he give you any chance at all if His mercy is given according to His will and not man's will.

and as I see scriptures He gives mercy to those that ask, call upon the name of the Lord and thy shall be saved. but calvinism will tell the sovereign God that He can't allow us to call upon Him that he must force some to or no one would ever love Him( that in around about way; forcing your love on someone who don't want.

You have a faulty understanding of what Calvin taught. God never makes someone love Him. All who love God do so because they want to. The fact that they want to shows that God gave them grace. None of us would ever ask or call to God unless He removes the stoney heart and gives us a heart of flesh.

I mentioned at the out set that man does not come to a knowledge of Christ through doctrine. You can argue doctrine all day long and never come to a knowledge of the truth. You come to doctrine through knowing Jesus Christ. You are arguing against strawmen. Ideas you have that are based on erroneous conclusions.

if He word says that if I believe then I am saved and if I don't believe then I am condemned already,

This is exactly what scripture says.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

what is your definition of irresistable Grace? if you say that Calvinist don't say that God forces himself on people, then you couldn't have irresistable grace, some that God called could resist the call. as scriptures shows that some has.

a judge is not always just, they are men, God is Just, not a respect of persons, he can't radomly pick you in and me out, after making both of us be born with a sin nature. yes you say that all are borned in sin and are condemned, but scriptures disagrees with You and says if we believe in Christ we are saved and those that don't believe are condemned already. you contradict election to say that all are condenmed, if all are condemned then none was elected before time begin as we know it, if some were elected, before they were borned, then they weren't condemned already

the potter made the two vessels from the SAME LUMP/ one being, two vessels; a fleshly vessel made of dishonour, a Spiritual vessel made for honour. that is not agreeing with calvinism and God makes someone just to throw away. God is perfect He can't make anything imperfect, yeah the flesh gets meshed up, the flesh was made as a veil between us and God and that veil was made to be ripped one day the veil/flesh was not made to last, as the Spirit was. do you really believe that God took one lump and split it into and said ok I will make this half/person to honour me and I will make this half/person to dishonour me. sorta makes a mockery out of every knee will bow now don't it. and even a mockery out of, let everything that hath breath Praise ye the Lord, I guess every thing that hath breath could not mean everything, guess you will hath the believe that it means only the ELECT right?

[larryt]

Because He has some charactoristics that make Him whom He is, and He can not waiver from these qualities, He is a JUST GOD, one without respect of persons concerning His judgement, if he redeems just by simply picking you are in and I am out, (ALL have sinned) then His judgement for your sins was different from his Judgement toward my sins, for the wages of sin is death, But the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.

All men are judged the same. All are condemned in Adam. All men deserve the death penalty. If the Governor decides based on his own will to pardon someone on death row, does he have to pardon everyone. No he only pardons whom he chooses. It is not a matter of God just picking someone to not judge them and picking others to judge. We are all judged and found guilty. All on the way to be put to death. Because He loved me and foreknew me He predestinated me to be conformed to Jesus Christ. Those He predestinated He called and whom He called He justified. And those He justified He glorified. My debt was paid. Are you saying that God is unjust in making some vessels for honor and some fitted for wrath?Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

He is just! If He allows you in, then He must give me the same chance. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy,

Why must he give you any chance at all if His mercy is given according to His will and not man's will.

and as I see scriptures He gives mercy to those that ask, call upon the name of the Lord and thy shall be saved. but calvinism will tell the sovereign God that He can't allow us to call upon Him that he must force some to or no one would ever love Him( that in around about way; forcing your love on someone who don't want.

You have a faulty understanding of what Calvin taught. God never makes someone love Him. All who love God do so because they want to. The fact that they want to shows that God gave them grace. None of us would ever ask or call to God unless He removes the stoney heart and gives us a heart of flesh.

I mentioned at the out set that man does not come to a knowledge of Christ through doctrine. You can argue doctrine all day long and never come to a knowledge of the truth. You come to doctrine through knowing Jesus Christ. You are arguing against strawmen. Ideas you have that are based on erroneous conclusions.

if He word says that if I believe then I am saved and if I don't believe then I am condemned already,

This is exactly what scripture says.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

what is your definition of irresistable Grace? if you say that Calvinist don't say that God forces himself on people, then you couldn't have irresistable grace, some that God called could resist the call. as scriptures shows that some has.

a judge is not always just, they are men, God is Just, not a respect of persons, he can't radomly pick you in and me out, after making both of us be born with a sin nature. yes you say that all are borned in sin and are condemned, but scriptures disagrees with You and says if we believe in Christ we are saved and those that don't believe are condemned already. you contradict election to say that all are condenmed, if all are condemned then none was elected before time begin as we know it, if some were elected, before they were borned, then they weren't condemned already

When that term was coined the idea was that if God decided to do something man would not be able to resist IN THE END. INVINCIBLE GRACE is more to the understanding that I have. Men resist the grace all the time. The idea of invincible grace is that God will accomplish ALL His purpose. God never fails in doing what He sets out to do.

Grace is getting that which we do not deserve. We are saved by Grace through Faith. Where does the faith come from? Paul tells us the the faith to believe is not of ourselves, it is the GIFT OF God. Eph. 2:8

I mentioned the actions of a Governor that pardons according to his own will as an example of God doing just the same. Just as all men in prison are guilty deserving the penalty for their crimes all men are GUILTY before God. There is none righteous, no not one. All have gone astray and deserve death for the wages of sin is death. God does not pick and choose RANDOMLY. He chooses according to His good pleasure. And this was all done even before the foundation of the world, before anything of recorded history.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We ARE ALL born in sin and we are all condemned in Adam. it is true that those that believe are given salvation because Christ paid the price of death for those He chose and gave the gift of faith to believe.

Those that were elect were elected to receive the pardon for their sins. They were chosen to be the recipients of the grace of God.

How do you recond this verse.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

It does not say that they believed and this is the reason they were ordained. It says they believed BECAUSE they were ordained/chosen to eternal life.

the potter made the two vessels from the SAME LUMP/ one being, two vessels; a fleshly vessel made of dishonour, a Spiritual vessel made for honour. that is not agreeing with calvinism and God makes someone just to throw away. God is perfect He can't make anything imperfect, yeah the flesh gets meshed up, the flesh was made as a veil between us and God and that veil was made to be ripped one day the veil/flesh was not made to last, as the Spirit was. do you really believe that God took one lump and split it into and said ok I will make this half/person to honour me and I will make this half/person to dishonour me. sorta makes a mockery out of every knee will bow now don't it. and even a mockery out of, let everything that hath breath Praise ye the Lord, I guess every thing that hath breath could not mean everything, guess you will hath the believe that it means only the ELECT right?

The potter made the vessels out of the same lump of clay. The clay was the same for both vessels. Mankind is the clay. Adam is of the earth, the red man. The vessels are used for honor or dishonor. They can be the same shape and size but they are used for 2 different purposes.

You are correct that God does not make anything imperfect. Man in Adam chose to disobey God.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

You have asked me to answer many of your objections. How do you explain:

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Is Jesus lying when He says He will not loose any of His people who were given to Him by the Father?

[His_disciple3]

You are correct that God does not make anything imperfect. Man in Adam chose to disobey God.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

You have asked me to answer many of your objections. How do you explain:

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Is Jesus lying when He says He will not loose any of His people who were given to Him by the Father?

and him that cometh to me: is man's response to the calling of the Holy Spirit to God, but I beleive if you read John 17, there is a bibical exception to your verse here, Jesus said that He had kept all, and none are lost, but the son of perdition, because the Son of perdition would not come to Him,( now you may say that I am assuming that judas didn't come to HIM, but I am not assuming but banking on what Jesus said in your verse He has kept ALL that has come to Him so why was Judas not kept because He didn't come to Jesus, so does prophecy come about because God said it would happen or because God knew it would happen, did God prophesy Judas' betrayal to make it happen, or did He prophesy of foreknowledge of knowing it would happen?. keep in mind Judas told the scribes I will show you the One you want by a kiss, the scribes knew Who Jesus was! Judas didn't have to show them, whom Jesus was.

verse 37 explains verse 39, there is a calling from God (the great supper, there was an invitiation sent out) there was a response from the invited, three refused, others filled their spot, so who was given To Jesus the ones that refused( NO WAY) He was given the ones that answered yes to the invitiation, whosoever (who) calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, and these in no way will be cast out, were the three that refused allowed to the supper? NO! Were they cast out? NO! they never was there to be cast out, but the ones that did respond yes they are there and they will never be cast out, even if there don't have the proper table manners, they will remain at the Great Supper which is like unto the Kingdom of God.

Revelation 22:16-17

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

KJV

it says "let him take of the Water of Life freely, not force him to! was Jesus lying in John 6? no , is there a contradiction between John 6 and john 17 No way! only the way people try and make scriptures fit their doctrine, instead of making their doctrine fit scriptures.

Edited July 11, 2012 by His_disciple3

[Guest yod]

I can't follow a murderer and I'm not armenian.

My trust is in the Word of God. If it says something, I believe it.

If it appears to be contradictory the problem is with my understanding. I may never resolve some of those issues perfectly, but I still trust that God's Word is true.

[rjp34652]

For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Arminianism

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeso...th/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due.

I want to begin by thanking Ovedya for reiterating the TULIP and DAISY ideological outlines. It's simply put and very welcome.

The sniping began almost immediately after the initial post as it has done for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Do you know that a lot of the philosophical background for both ideologies rests in classical paganism, not the Bible. If you read the philosophers and theologians of the early Christian and pre-Christian era you'll see the parallels quite clearly. One of the reasons there is so much disagreement about this range of opinion is that the entire discussion is based on an incompatible mixture of pagan culture and Biblical revelation.

Did you ever wonder why God added this stuff to the Bible in the first place? Jesus spent a lot of time correcting false impressions and bad teaching. Could it be that both doctrinal flowers are in fact little more than silk imitations of the real thing - false representations of a truth that has always been right there in front of our faces?

When folk are discussing floral arrangements of tulips and daises in the Kingdom of God, they somehow forget to include the brambles, thistles, thorns and cactus that grow in the garden as well as their interaction with one another and the acts of the gardener. Does someone have a detailed dogma about them too? Jesus did and the gospels record a couple versions of it. His agricultural allusions always seem to illustrate a natural flow and purpose to things whereas the doctrines of man seem to always be more mechanical, with subsequent occasional breakdowns in logic.

Truly truly, something else is going on.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[His_disciple3]

For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Arminianism

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeso...th/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due.

I want to begin by thanking Ovedya for reiterating the TULIP and DAISY ideological outlines. It's simply put and very welcome.

The sniping began almost immediately after the initial post as it has done for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Do you know that a lot of the philosophical background for both ideologies rests in classical paganism, not the Bible. If you read the philosophers and theologians of the early Christian and pre-Christian era you'll see the parallels quite clearly. One of the reasons there is so much disagreement about this range of opinion is that the entire discussion is based on an incompatible mixture of pagan culture and Biblical revelation.

Did you ever wonder why God added this stuff to the Bible in the first place? Jesus spent a lot of time correcting false impressions and bad teaching. Could it be that both doctrinal flowers are in fact little more than silk imitations of the real thing - false representations of a truth that has always been right there in front of our faces?

When folk are discussing floral arrangements of tulips and daises in the Kingdom of God, they somehow forget to include the brambles, thistles, thorns and cactus that grow in the garden as well as their interaction with one another and the acts of the gardener. Does someone have a detailed dogma about them too? Jesus did and the gospels record a couple versions of it. His agricultural allusions always seem to illustrate a natural flow and purpose to things whereas the doctrines of man seem to always be more mechanical, with subsequent occasional breakdowns in logic.

Truly truly, something else is going on.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

sorry dude, But what does the synod of dort. prove, that a group of calvinist can get together and disagree with someone who disagreed with them, the choir loft is a place to sing not holler. also with your example of a agricultural allusions always seem to illustrate a natural flow, you must have never been in agricultural and seen the nature flow of things produce hailballs the size of golf balls and totally destory your crop

[rjp34652]

For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Arminianism

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeso...th/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due.

I want to begin by thanking Ovedya for reiterating the TULIP and DAISY ideological outlines. It's simply put and very welcome.

The sniping began almost immediately after the initial post as it has done for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Do you know that a lot of the philosophical background for both ideologies rests in classical paganism, not the Bible. If you read the philosophers and theologians of the early Christian and pre-Christian era you'll see the parallels quite clearly. One of the reasons there is so much disagreement about this range of opinion is that the entire discussion is based on an incompatible mixture of pagan culture and Biblical revelation.

Did you ever wonder why God added this stuff to the Bible in the first place? Jesus spent a lot of time correcting false impressions and bad teaching. Could it be that both doctrinal flowers are in fact little more than silk imitations of the real thing - false representations of a truth that has always been right there in front of our faces?

When folk are discussing floral arrangements of tulips and daises in the Kingdom of God, they somehow forget to include the brambles, thistles, thorns and cactus that grow in the garden as well as their interaction with one another and the acts of the gardener. Does someone have a detailed dogma about them too? Jesus did and the gospels record a couple versions of it. His agricultural allusions always seem to illustrate a natural flow and purpose to things whereas the doctrines of man seem to always be more mechanical, with subsequent occasional breakdowns in logic.

Truly truly, something else is going on.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

sorry dude, But what does the synod of dort. prove, that a group of calvinist can get together and disagree with someone who disagreed with them, the choir loft is a place to sing not holler. also with your example of a agricultural allusions always seem to illustrate a natural flow, you must have never been in agricultural and seen the nature flow of things produce hailballs the size of golf balls and totally destory your crop

I would welcome the opportunity to exchange views with you - if I could figure out what you're saying. Try using smaller words and shorter sentences next time.

If you want to discuss natural disasters, try this one on for size; how about the prayer of a man I know that averted an accident that would have killed two dozen men? By the grace of God they escaped with minor difficulties. How about the kindness of God that stopped a hurricane dead in its tracks. Ever been through one of those babies? Makes your hail stones look like a child's ice cream cone, makes your crop devastation look like a kid's yard work done wrong. Imagine an F5 tornado TWO TO THREE HUNDRED miles across and you begin to get the idea of what I'm talking about. Now imagine the God of Hosts redirecting TWO of them at the same time to avoid the loss of life. I've been there and I've seen it. Hurricanes man, not a tiny little hail storm that ruined a crop. I'm talking about Biblical devastation, man. I've been there and I've seen it, so don't presume to lecture me about your tiny trauma in the barn yard, you'll get no sympathy from me.

I've seen shipwrecks at sea avoided by divine mercy. I've seen car wrecks that could have killed and did not because God decided ahead of time to turn the situation around. I've seen plane accidents avoided because of miracles sent from heaven and I've seen God heal limbs that were born wrong and I've heard Him speak in the thunder of the clouds.

*** removed personal attack *** I'll holler and I'll scream of the glory and mercy of God if I want to. Close your eyes and ears if you don't like it. There are millions of people and millions upon millions of angels who holler and cry and scream from choir lofts from city streets and from the holy halls of heaven itself. PRAISE GOD.

Holy Holy Holy Worthy is He who sits upon the throne to receive glory and honor and praise. I praise and honor the Lord of Hosts because I know Him who has given Himself for me and who has spared me and given me life. He deserves the praises of men and angels because he's earned it.

but that's just me HOLLERING from the choir loft...

Edited July 16, 2012 by OneLight
No personal attacks or insults allowed.

[larryt]

I want to begin by thanking Ovedya for reiterating the TULIP and DAISY ideological outlines. It's simply put and very welcome.

The sniping began almost immediately after the initial post as it has done for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Do you know that a lot of the philosophical background for both ideologies rests in classical paganism, not the Bible. If you read the philosophers and theologians of the early Christian and pre-Christian era you'll see the parallels quite clearly. One of the reasons there is so much disagreement about this range of opinion is that the entire discussion is based on an incompatible mixture of pagan culture and Biblical revelation.

Did you ever wonder why God added this stuff to the Bible in the first place? Jesus spent a lot of time correcting false impressions and bad teaching. Could it be that both doctrinal flowers are in fact little more than silk imitations of the real thing - false representations of a truth that has always been right there in front of our faces?

When folk are discussing floral arrangements of tulips and daises in the Kingdom of God, they somehow forget to include the brambles, thistles, thorns and cactus that grow in the garden as well as their interaction with one another and the acts of the gardener. Does someone have a detailed dogma about them too? Jesus did and the gospels record a couple versions of it. His agricultural allusions always seem to illustrate a natural flow and purpose to things whereas the doctrines of man seem to always be more mechanical, with subsequent occasional breakdowns in logic.

Truly truly, something else is going on.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

HI rjp,

The discussion of these doctrines are essentially a dicussion of the nature of man and the nature of God. Is man really dead or is he just wounded? Is God sovereign, omnipotent, onniscient, ..... or is God unable to do all that He set out to do from the foundation of the world?

You mention that there is a mixture of pagan philosophy mixed in. Calvin never taught TULIP. The idea of TULIP came about as an answer to what was viewed as heresy with the idea that this would clarify the true doctrine as apposed to the heresies that were creeping in.

What do you find objectionable or incorrect in the ideas put forth in the council of Dort? And as I have mentioned before I do not believe that we can know Christ through understanding doctrine. We come to know doctrine by knowing Christ.