Calvin vs. Arminius

[larryt]

This whole post boils down to do you believe that man is totally depraved as one of the points of Calvinism or do you believe that man is only wounded and can raise himself from the dead, see though blind from birth on his own ...... choose to love God on his own. After all you seem to say that God bases His choice in salvation on those that He sees will choose Him if I understand your point.

Well, then you really missed the point of this thread.

So what is the point that you think I have missed. I do believe that points of Calvinism, though I do not believe in preaching Calvinism, are the essence of the Gospel/The Faith once delivered to the Saints. Your specific post referred to above was the reason for my question on "Do you see man as totally depraved or just wounded?" I was linking the post to the first point of Calvinism which is the point of the thread as I see it.

grace & peace

By your words, if I understand them correctly, tells me that you do not understand what people, including myself, have said. Your exact words are "can raise himself from the dead, see though blind from birth on his own". Nobody that I am aware of claims to be able to raise themselves from the dead, or can see though blind by themselves. They can, however, answer His call of salvation. It is , and always has been, God who does the work.

So the direct question that I have been trying to get an answer to is:

Is man totally depraved or is he only wounded?

And the referrence to being raised from the dead is a spiritually dead person, I am talking about spiritually deadness and spiritual blindness. To answer the call is in my view only possible if God does a work first, giving prevenient grace to those He chose in His sovereign will before the foundation of the world to save not loosing any that were given to Christ.

Just wondering if you were going to address my response.

[larryt]

For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Arminianism

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeso...th/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due.

I 100% reject BOTH of these.

They both go "too far"

They both subject Scripture to WAY to much HUMAN, sinful, fallen "logic."

They both embrace SOME Scriptures, put too much into them, and then largely "dismiss" others because they don't seem to agree.

I think there is "mystery" here - and that's okay. We don't NEED to understand; we NEED to trust/rely.

I don't UNDERSTAND how or why all these things "crank out." God does. That's all that matters.

I believe that because I believe, GOD did that. ALL good things from God. ALL related to salvation is God's doing.

I believe that we are justified by Grace, because of Christ, through faith - and that's ONE inseparable doctrine and article of faith.

HOW GOD does that - I don't know (fully).

I thus reject TULIP and DAISY.

I am currious as to how long you have been thinking about this. Take just the first point in Tulip & DAISY. Total depravity or Depraved but just partially. You personnally, where do you see yourself?

Grace & Peace

On that SINGULAR point, I'm with the Calvinists.

Then on to the second point.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

This poils down to: Is God absolutely sovereign or does man have some sovereignty?

[OneLight]

This whole post boils down to do you believe that man is totally depraved as one of the points of Calvinism or do you believe that man is only wounded and can raise himself from the dead, see though blind from birth on his own ...... choose to love God on his own. After all you seem to say that God bases His choice in salvation on those that He sees will choose Him if I understand your point.

Well, then you really missed the point of this thread.

So what is the point that you think I have missed. I do believe that points of Calvinism, though I do not believe in preaching Calvinism, are the essence of the Gospel/The Faith once delivered to the Saints. Your specific post referred to above was the reason for my question on "Do you see man as totally depraved or just wounded?" I was linking the post to the first point of Calvinism which is the point of the thread as I see it.

grace & peace

By your words, if I understand them correctly, tells me that you do not understand what people, including myself, have said. Your exact words are "can raise himself from the dead, see though blind from birth on his own". Nobody that I am aware of claims to be able to raise themselves from the dead, or can see though blind by themselves. They can, however, answer His call of salvation. It is , and always has been, God who does the work.

So the direct question that I have been trying to get an answer to is:

Is man totally depraved or is he only wounded?

And the referrence to being raised from the dead is a spiritually dead person, I am talking about spiritually deadness and spiritual blindness. To answer the call is in my view only possible if God does a work first, giving prevenient grace to those He chose in His sovereign will before the foundation of the world to save not loosing any that were given to Christ.

Sorry if I missed your reply.

If you can tell me what you mean by "Is man totally depraved or is he only wounded?". I am afraid that I don't understand the question and do not want to misaddress your question. Yes, I have thought I understood, but now believe I do not.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I 100% reject BOTH of these.

They both go "too far"

They both subject Scripture to WAY to much HUMAN, sinful, fallen "logic."

They both embrace SOME Scriptures, put too much into them, and then largely "dismiss" others because they don't seem to agree.

I think there is "mystery" here - and that's okay. We don't NEED to understand; we NEED to trust/rely.

I don't UNDERSTAND how or why all these things "crank out." God does. That's all that matters.

I believe that because I believe, GOD did that. ALL good things from God. ALL related to salvation is God's doing.

I believe that we are justified by Grace, because of Christ, through faith - and that's ONE inseparable doctrine and article of faith.

HOW GOD does that - I don't know (fully).

I thus reject TULIP and DAISY.

Then on to the second point.

I reject that.

While I accept the concept of Election, I reject the idea that God gets off and is gloried by seeing people fry for all eternity in hell.

If we believe, it is solely because of God. if we don't, it's soley because of us.

Those in heaven have Christ to thank. Those in hell have self to blame - not God.

I don't thank God for seeing people fry for eternity in hell. And I don't think He smiles or laughs or is pleased with such - I do NOT believe such is His glory and desire.

.

Edited April 20, 2013 by CaliforniaJosiah

[larryt]

This whole post boils down to do you believe that man is totally depraved as one of the points of Calvinism or do you believe that man is only wounded and can raise himself from the dead, see though blind from birth on his own ...... choose to love God on his own. After all you seem to say that God bases His choice in salvation on those that He sees will choose Him if I understand your point.

Well, then you really missed the point of this thread.

So what is the point that you think I have missed. I do believe that points of Calvinism, though I do not believe in preaching Calvinism, are the essence of the Gospel/The Faith once delivered to the Saints. Your specific post referred to above was the reason for my question on "Do you see man as totally depraved or just wounded?" I was linking the post to the first point of Calvinism which is the point of the thread as I see it.

grace & peace

By your words, if I understand them correctly, tells me that you do not understand what people, including myself, have said. Your exact words are "can raise himself from the dead, see though blind from birth on his own". Nobody that I am aware of claims to be able to raise themselves from the dead, or can see though blind by themselves. They can, however, answer His call of salvation. It is , and always has been, God who does the work.

So the direct question that I have been trying to get an answer to is:

Is man totally depraved or is he only wounded?

And the referrence to being raised from the dead is a spiritually dead person, I am talking about spiritually deadness and spiritual blindness. To answer the call is in my view only possible if God does a work first, giving prevenient grace to those He chose in His sovereign will before the foundation of the world to save not loosing any that were given to Christ.

Sorry if I missed your reply.

If you can tell me what you mean by "Is man totally depraved or is he only wounded?". I am afraid that I don't understand the question and do not want to misaddress your question. Yes, I have thought I understood, but now believe I do not.

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive)OR WOUNDED. Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

Grace and peace

The points of Calvinism and Armianism are the 2 positions.

[larryt]

I 100% reject BOTH of these.

They both go "too far"

They both subject Scripture to WAY to much HUMAN, sinful, fallen "logic."

They both embrace SOME Scriptures, put too much into them, and then largely "dismiss" others because they don't seem to agree.

I think there is "mystery" here - and that's okay. We don't NEED to understand; we NEED to trust/rely.

I don't UNDERSTAND how or why all these things "crank out." God does. That's all that matters.

I believe that because I believe, GOD did that. ALL good things from God. ALL related to salvation is God's doing.

I believe that we are justified by Grace, because of Christ, through faith - and that's ONE inseparable doctrine and article of faith.

HOW GOD does that - I don't know (fully).

I thus reject TULIP and DAISY.

Then on to the second point.

I reject that.

While I accept the concept of Election, I reject the idea that God gets off and is gloried by seeing people fry for all eternity in hell.

If we believe, it is solely because of God. if we don't, it's soley because of us.

Those in heaven have Christ to thank. Those in hell have self to blame - not God.

I don't thank God for seeing people fry for eternity in hell. And I don't think He smiles or laughs or is pleased with such - I do NOT believe such is His glory and desire.

Who said anything about God taking joy in the death of the wicked. You draw a conclusion based on your human logic. God says directly that He takes no joy in the death of the wicked. This is a question of God's sovereignty and not how can we rationalize the scripture to our puny thinking process.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

grace and peace

[Guest]

....Only those that are thirsty, and hear, and will; will choose to drink of the water of Life. Those that are not thirsty and refuse to hear and have no desire to drink won't. So where does the desire to drink come from? How do the deaf hear? How is it that the natural man could ever choose anything of the Spirit for it is foolishness to him?

Don't

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

Forget

And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely Revelation 22:17(e)

The Power Of God

And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Mark 10:26-27

The Mighty Holy Spirit

Of sin, because they believe not on me; John 16:9

Yet We Know Most Men

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:13-14

Will Turn

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Romans 1:16-19

Away

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

From Grace

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

I Wonder Just What Part Of "Whosoever" God Left Out?

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

[CaliforniaJosiah]

While I accept the concept of Election, I reject the idea that God gets off and is gloried by seeing people fry for all eternity in hell.

If we believe, it is solely because of God. if we don't, it's soley because of us.

Those in heaven have Christ to thank. Those in hell have self to blame - not God.

I don't thank God for seeing people fry for eternity in hell. And I don't think He smiles or laughs or is pleased with such - I do NOT believe such is His glory and desire.

Who said anything about God taking joy in the death of the wicked. You draw a conclusion based on your human logic. God says directly that He takes no joy in the death of the wicked. This is a question of God's sovereignty and not how can we rationalize the scripture to our puny thinking process.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

grace and peace

Then you reject Calvin's double predestination and agree with me? If so, you reject TULIP.

.

[Qnts2]

Sorry for my intrusion.

I am not a Calvinist, or an Arminian, but I do have friends who are Calvinists.

Double predestination is just one variety of Calvinism, so not all Calvinists believe in double predestination.

Double predestination falls under the sub-heading of the Ordo Salutis (order of salvation). The Ordo Salutis is the order in which God decided or decreed certain things to save some people.

From site :

http://www.spurgeon....es/sup_infr.htm

Supralapsarianism

1. 
   
   • Elect some, reprobate rest
     
   • Create
     
     • Permit Fall
       
     • Provide salvation for elect
       
     • Call elect to salvation
       

Infralapsarianism

1. Create
   
   • Permit Fall
     
     • Elect some, pass over the rest
       
       • Provide salvation for elect
         
         • Call elect to salvation
           

Amyralidism

[*]Create

• Permit Fall
  
  • Provide salvation sufficient for all
    
    • Elect some, pass over rest
      
      • Call elect to salvation
        

Arminianism

[*]Create

[*]Permit Fall

[*]Provide salvation for all

[*]Call all to salvation

[*]Elect those who believe

Edited April 24, 2013 by Qnts2

[larryt]

While I accept the concept of Election, I reject the idea that God gets off and is gloried by seeing people fry for all eternity in hell.

If we believe, it is solely because of God. if we don't, it's soley because of us.

Those in heaven have Christ to thank. Those in hell have self to blame - not God.

I don't thank God for seeing people fry for eternity in hell. And I don't think He smiles or laughs or is pleased with such - I do NOT believe such is His glory and desire.

Who said anything about God taking joy in the death of the wicked. You draw a conclusion based on your human logic. God says directly that He takes no joy in the death of the wicked. This is a question of God's sovereignty and not how can we rationalize the scripture to our puny thinking process.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

grace and peace

Then you reject Calvin's double predestination and agree with me? If so, you reject TULIP.

Again you make assumptions based on your presuppositions about what I believe. As I have stated earlier I am not a Calvinist for If I preach Calvinism I will not be preaching Christ. If I preach Christ the ideas expressed in Calvinism will be evident IMHO.

Grace and peace