Calvin vs. Arminius

[serotta]

mcm42, do you think humans are capable of doing any good on their own? So what I'm trying to save is that totally does not mean completely as in 100% of our being, but that it touches every part of our being. If we're able to do good "works" apart from God, we're also capable of recognizing our depravity and choosing to submit to God.

And if Christ died once for all (every single sinful human), that means salvation is open to all, and so yes, some accept God's grace and some do not. Certainly God chooses to work harder on some than others at different times. And intercessory prayer works, so we're able to ask God to select certain individuals. So maybe a good way of saying this is that every person is capable of asking God to select him/her and allow him/her to submit to God's will, and that God never rejects that request. What do you think?

[Guest mcm42]

We are capable of making a good decision under the influence of Sin

Ahhh... O.k. that will clear it up for me easily. See I believe in a Totaly Depravity (Totally Depraved, totally incapable of making a God honoring decisions, or as Paul would write it, Dead in trespasses and Sins.)

I believe that we can not come to Christ on our own, that we naturally deny him, and the God of the universe (cf. Rom 1). The only way we can Choose Christ is if He first does something in our lives. I believe that I can not Choose Christ, prior to his choosing me, because I am totally incapable, as a fallen creature. Only when the Spirit causes me to have Faith, do I make the decision to follow Christ. It is his influence in my life, not my decision, that saves me.

I don't believe that any single work, be it a prayer, baptism or "belief" saves. I believe that "Faith" is a gift from God, so we are saved when we have faith and our faith is given to us by the Father (see Eph 2:8,9)

Every outword act, whether it's me simply saying "I believe" or if I pray or am baptism, is only a result of a true inward condition. An inward condition initiated by God, not me.

That is why, it is by Grace, not by works, I can not boast in anything but my God with this belief, any other I feel I am able to boast in, whether it be my faith, or my Belief or my prayer or my baptism or whatever.

So then, I boast not in my belief, but in faith, which was given to me by Jesus Christ my Lord...

I think I see where your coming from, I hope you can see where I am. (hey where is WIP when I need him, i feel like I'm flying solo in here.)

God Bless

[keslc]

The real issue here isn't really about predestination, but of free will and whether or not people have free will. It sounds like it is suggested that we can't have free will because God is Soveirgn (sp?) and has control over everything. Well, yes, God is soveirgn, and He CAN do anything He wants to do, but! He has also given us choices that we have to make on our own. Here is some scripture:

Genesis 2:16 - God is telling Adam, "you are free to eat of any tree in the garden....." he gives Adam and Eve a choice, to obey or not to obey. He knew they wouldn't, but that doesn't mean He MADE them disobedient. God cannot tolerate sin because He is HOLY, it is His will that we live a holy life (1 Thessolonians 4:3"It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body") therefore, He can't pre-destine people to be un-holy, that would be against His own will. He knows who will live an un-holy life and choose not to follow Him, but that is due to the choices He has allowed us to have and make, not because He made them that way. Make sense?

Also 2 Peter 2 is very good in explaining this particularly verses 9,10,12!

As far as Romans 9, I think that to use that for a predestination theory may be taking it out of context. Verse 11 is what says something specifically about the "elect". I think that is in reference to God "electing" the line of Israel to come through Jacob rather than Esau, not electing so and so from the history of the world to be saved. Also, the underlying theme for that entire chapter is more of a faith vs. works idea. Paul is talking about Israel and even though they tried to obtain righteousness through works instead of faith, those who are "my people" (followers of Christ, both Jew and gentile) will still inherit what God promised them. God can't go back on a promise, He doesn't lie. (just how I took that passage after some prayerful thought and consideration)

On the cross, Jesus made a way for the WHOLE world to come to HIM, knowing that not everyone would, however. hence John 3:16 "....whosoever WILL MAY be saved".

2 Peter 3:8,9, "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (bold added by me)

I understand that this is one of those areas on which two christians may never see eye to eye. I appreciate the challenge to explain my position as it makes me seek the Word of God! I hope you feel the same! God Bless you!

[Guest mcm42]

He knew they wouldn't, but that doesn't mean He MADE them disobedient

This is an interesting way of putting it, and your emphasis on the word "made" is very intruiging. (It is interesting that as we argue for differing points, we inevitably prove the other belief to the other person, isn't that odd? )

IF God knew that they would sin and still "MADE" them, didn't he "make them" disobedient? If God didn't want them to sin, could he have stopped it? Who said he had to make adam and Eve? He could have said, NOPE If their going to sin I"m not Going to make them, because I don't want anyone in sin. IN fact, why create satan, obviously God knew satan would fall, yet he created him anyway! Why?

It's all in HIS Plan. It's all to His glory. I don't understand it all, and maybe never will, But the fact is if God allows a decision to be made, It's within His plan. Therefore it is predestined, predetermined. Fact is God plays an active role in every decision, he made you and allowed your decision to occur, and therefore he has predestined it to be so.

He can't pre-destine people to be un-holy, that would be against His own will

God Made people who would choose to deny Him, and He knew they would deny Him! That's against His will! How could he make something that would choose to deny him? Oh he can and he did, all to show His mercy on those of us whom he has chosen.

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In 1 Thessolonians 4:3 paul is not talking to unbelievers an Believers, He is only speaking to believers...this verse doesn't really apply here.

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As far as the Book of Romans goes... It is very much a book about Salvation. The first 11 chapters are explicitly talking about Salvation and how it all works. 12-16 are simply, now that your saved live like this.

I'm glad we can toss ideas back and forth freely, usually by now someone would have told me to send my False Doctrine to hell with me (o.k. maybe not but some have come close ) God bless you, and your belief, even if it disagrees with mine in this area.

[keslc]

He knew they wouldn't, but that doesn't mean He MADE them disobedient

This is an interesting way of putting it, and your emphasis on the word "made" is very intruiging. (It is interesting that as we argue for differing points, we inevitably prove the other belief to the other person, isn't that odd? )

IF God knew that they would sin and still "MADE" them, didn't he "make them" disobedient? If God didn't want them to sin, could he have stopped it? Who said he had to make adam and Eve? He could have said, NOPE If their going to sin I"m not Going to make them, because I don't want anyone in sin. IN fact, why create satan, obviously God knew satan would fall, yet he created him anyway! Why?

It's all in HIS Plan. It's all to His glory. I don't understand it all, and maybe never will, But the fact is if God allows a decision to be made, It's within His plan. Therefore it is predestined, predetermined. Fact is God plays an active role in every decision, he made you and allowed your decision to occur, and therefore he has predestined it to be so.

He can't pre-destine people to be un-holy, that would be against His own will

God Made people who would choose to deny Him, and He knew they would deny Him! That's against His will! How could he make something that would choose to deny him? Oh he can and he did, all to show His mercy on those of us whom he has chosen.

---------

In 1 Thessolonians 4:3 paul is not talking to unbelievers an Believers, He is only speaking to believers...this verse doesn't really apply here.

---------

As far as the Book of Romans goes... It is very much a book about Salvation. The first 11 chapters are explicitly talking about Salvation and how it all works. 12-16 are simply, now that your saved live like this.

I'm glad we can toss ideas back and forth freely, usually by now someone would have told me to send my False Doctrine to hell with me (o.k. maybe not but some have come close ) God bless you, and your belief, even if it disagrees with mine in this area.

This is an interesting way of putting it, and your emphasis on the word "made" is very intruiging. (It is interesting that as we argue for differing points, we inevitably prove the other belief to the other person, isn't that odd? )

IF God knew that they would sin and still "MADE" them, didn't he "make them" disobedient? If God didn't want them to sin, could he have stopped it? Who said he had to make adam and Eve? He could have said, NOPE If their going to sin I"m not Going to make them, because I don't want anyone in sin. IN fact, why create satan, obviously God knew satan would fall, yet he created him anyway! Why?

(ok, having problems with the quoting mechanics, lol!)

Anyway, my use of the word "made" was not as in "created" I meant as in "caused them to sin".

I, too, have no answers as to why God allowed sin to enter the world or why he created satan or why he created man knowing man would disobey, so I am with you there. That's one of the reasons we have faith right? To follow Christ even when there are things we don't understand!

It's all in HIS Plan. It's all to His glory. I don't understand it all, and maybe never will, But the fact is if God allows a decision to be made, It's within His plan. Therefore it is predestined, predetermined. Fact is God plays an active role in every decision, he made you and allowed your decision to occur, and therefore he has predestined it to be so.

I just have a hard time with God playing a part in disobedience. I can't imagine that is in His nature as I understand it. It would leave us unaccountable for everything we do. I just can't see it! We are responsible for our decisions, we are accountable for our decisions, that is why we can be punished for our decisions unless we are repentant and come to Christ.

I think I have stated my view and I know you've heard what I had to say, as I did you. Unless you ask another question or want me to say something else, I will agree to disagree. Like I said, though, I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you about this. I hope you feel like this has been a good discussion and hold no ill feelings, I don't hold any ill feelings at all! Take care, friend! God bless!

[Shelby]

QUOTE

He knew they wouldn't, but that doesn't mean He MADE them disobedient

This is an interesting way of putting it, and your emphasis on the word "made" is very intruiging. (It is interesting that as we argue for differing points, we inevitably prove the other belief to the other person, isn't that odd? )

IF God knew that they would sin and still "MADE" them, didn't he "make them" disobedient? If God didn't want them to sin, could he have stopped it? Who said he had to make adam and Eve? He could have said, NOPE If their going to sin I"m not Going to make them, because I don't want anyone in sin. IN fact, why create satan, obviously God knew satan would fall, yet he created him anyway! Why?

Of Course, God could stop anything, he could have stopped Jesus's Crucifixion, but where would we be? It is important to know that God allows a person to choose and he does know what they will choose, but does that not mean that that person's life couldn't have been a testimony to another person. It could have been that one fallen person's life that helped another person realize God in his wisdom and plan. Just because every story doesn't have a happy ending doesn't mean that it was all for naught.

I read your previous post and think I understand better what you are saying, yet I do not believe the same way. I think it is about perspective. It is important to me to know and understand that God chooses everyone. He does. He didn't send his son to die for some, he did to die for all, but it was each person's choice not to choose Christ. It hurts him, but it is important that there must be a baance, if you believe in John 3:16 I don't believe that your view fits that view. The WHOLE WORLD. Anyone, everyone, whosoever. It is your choice. God did call you, when he breathed life into you. Giving life, is that not the greatest gift. No one is worthless to God, yet no one is worthy of him, that is why he gives us grace. I could go on forever. But i do know we are not going to make eachother see what we want, but we can pray that God will help us to understnad his word and eachother better.

GBU

[Guest mcm42]

I have some thoughts on your last statement, but I feel as though I've buried the horse, and I don't feel like digging it up and beating it anymore .

God bless

[Guest mcm42]

Side note...

I don't know if anyone has told you how to quote yet... so I'll throw in a helping hand

once you have the quote in the post....

Highlight the quote and click the "Quote" button

Or

Go to the beginning of your quote and click the quote button (You'll see

in front of your statement) *Notice a * next to your button. Now you must go to the end of your quote and clikc the "QUOTE*" button.

A quote should look like this

your quote here

Hope that helps... Take care you two

[Shelby]

Thanks, I couldn't figure it out. I appreciate your openess and understanding. I think it is important to chat and make sure not only do we know what we believe, but we believe what we believe. If that makes sense. Sorry if you felt bombarded. Not our intention at all.

GBU and your family!!

[Work in Progress]

sorry WIP, i really do like you, but that comment came across very, uh, i'm not sure of the word i'm looking for, but it wasn't very flattering