World Dedicated to Creation of Terrorist State

[Guest yod]

Smalcald is claiming innerancy and infallibillity for the entire "true Church" as he calls it. Neither that nor papal infallibility are biblical.

that isn't what I got from him.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think he is only saying that those who are "in" the Holy Spirit (aka "true church") hear His voice and therefore can not be against God's plan for Israel. We may disagree on exactly what that plan is....and we may not be discerning of the details... but we will not be found fighting against the Head of this Body.

But I think he has overlooked one exception to that rule; Deception.

While I agree that "true saints" can hear His voice if they are listening for it, I also believe it is a MAJORITY of christians who are deceived by theological devices of a european (greek) cultural perspective. They simply can not hear the Spirit speaking of the Israel we know.

This is compounded by the deception of secular media and world opinion pouring gasoline on the fires of prejudice.

The way I see it, our only choices are writing them off as enemies or patiently trying to undo 2,000 years of theological errors. There is no common ground outside of Yeshua but they don't know Him as King of the Jews...yet

[Guest shiloh357]

Smalcald is claiming innerancy and infallibillity for the entire "true Church" as he calls it. Neither that nor papal infallibility are biblical.

that isn't what I got from him.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think he is only saying that those who are "in" the Holy Spirit (aka "true church") hear His voice and therefore can not be against God's plan for Israel. We may disagree on exactly what that plan is....and we may not be discerning of the details... but we will not be found fighting against the Head of this Body.

But I think he has overlooked one exception to that rule; Deception.

While I agree that "true saints" can hear His voice if they are listening for it, I also believe it is a MAJORITY of christians who are deceived by theological devices of a european (greek) cultural perspective. They simply can not hear the Spirit speaking of the Israel we know.

This is compounded by the deception of secular media and world opinion pouring gasoline on the fires of prejudice.

The way I see it, our only choices are writing them off as enemies or patiently trying to undo 2,000 years of theological errors. There is no common ground outside of Yeshua but they don't know Him as King of the Jews...yet

Okay, I could be misreading him. I never thought of it like that. I could agree with that.

[stan4257]

Casting Aside The Pure Words Of God As A Mere Historical Source

Elevating The Musings Of Sinners As Supreme Authority And Daring To Call It Good

Now THAT Is An Interesting Teaching For This Christ-Centered Bible Believing Ministry

I am not an authority of what the Catholic church believes, nor am I a Catholic, but being fair to what they say, it seems from the words used that they are trying to avoid the circular argument that is so often used to prove the bible by using the bible as proof.

It seems that what they are advocating is that the words of Jesus Christ, certainly in this case, can be taken as historical evidence, even if the books in which they were recorded had not yet been declared by the church to be inspired by God, and that the historical evidence leads to a non arguable right of the church to make decisions about what writings are inspired, which they then go on to do by saying that the writings in which the historical evidence is contained are inspired by God.

Now I know that is a circular argument on its own, but it does satisfy the criteria that arguments from the bible to prove the bible are invalid as logic.

Incidentally, I have great difficulty in following the logic of their argument, though respect their right to advance it.

[Guest]

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it." John 5:21

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." 1 Timothy 2:4-6

Casting Aside The Pure Words Of God As A Mere Historical Source

Elevating The Musings Of Sinners As Supreme Authority And Daring To Call It Good

Now THAT Is An Interesting Teaching For This Christ-Centered Bible Believing Ministry

I am not an authority of what the Catholic church believes, nor am I a Catholic, but being fair to what they say, it seems from the words used that they are trying to avoid the circular argument that is so often used to prove the bible by using the bible as proof.

Or Are They Just Trying To Avoid The Bible By Any Argument

What Say Ye Christ?

The Trouble With Bible Critics Is That They Begin Their Study By Missing The Heart Of The Bible, The Lord Jesus Christ

"Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God." Hebrews 10:7

And Then They Go On To Add To Or Subtract From Calvary And From The One Who Hung There

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2

Then They Become Ashamed Of The Holy Bible

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16

And Start To Apply Man's Wicked Heart

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9

To God's Holy Word

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men." 1 Corinthians 1:21-25

And They Are Lost

"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." Luke 9:26

Unless The Lord

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Gifts Them

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

There Are Untold Thousands Of Brothers And Sisters Some Raised In The RC Church Who Love The Lord Jesus Christ With All Their Hearts And Who Have Gone Or Who Will Go To Their LORD Through A Martyr's Death.

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:32-33

They Will Not Deny Their Lord And Savior And He Will Not Leave Them Nor Forsake Them

"When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee." Isaiah 43:2

The Trouble Some Have With The Living Word Of God Is That It Is Really God's Word

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12

And There Is Power In The Bible And In The Holy Ghost

".... and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" Ephesians 6:17

Because The Bible Will Surly Accomplish God's Pleasure

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Writing The Words Of Christ Into Some Hearts

"Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." 2 Corinthians 3:3

While Hardening Others For The Wrath To Come

"While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." Hebrews 3:15

Yet God Still Calls

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[stan4257]

[quote name='FresnoJoe'

Or Are They Just Trying To Avoid The Bible By Any Argument

[Smalcald]

I am not that good at always explaining myself. I do mean more along the lines of what Yod has said. So also let me respond to Nebula at the same time.

I think we have had this discussion about what the true Church is before; I believe we all agreed it was not buildings or hierarchies or administrators nor denominations.

Consider:

Col 1:18

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

So we see the true Church right here. So our leader of this Body, the Church is Christ. Can Christ go against the eternal plan of God? Can He defy Himself? Certainly not, we can be deceived as was mentioned; we can go against our own Church. My original point which was actually a simply a small point really, was that when we say the "Church" is wrong we are not speaking of this Church described above whose head is Christ and we are all a part of if we have true faith.

Ephesians 2:19-22: 19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Here is another description of this Church the one that scripture shows Christ as the head of, the Body!

Of course we can look at the classic scripture describing the Church that Christ founded:

15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven."

So the Church belongs to Christ, He built it and sustains it today.

So we then look at the Church described above, the one Christ Himself says that He is founding and sustaining and is the leader of, that Church being against Christ, being totally wrong?

This Church is eternal it stretches back in time Moses belongs to this Church today right now as does Abraham and Peter and Paul, they all are members worshipping Christ. It is a mighty thing, and I think we get a glimpse of some of it when we gather for worship together.

[nebula]

Sorry, Smalcald, but you are still not making sense.

I understand techically what you are saying, but I fail to see how it applies practically. Your claim assumes the people who make up the Church have clear hearing to what Christ is speaking to them, and so any decisions or interpretations of Scripture the individuals of the Church make come directly from Christ.

I fail to see this ever happening in real life.

[Smalcald]

Sorry, Smalcald, but you are still not making sense.

I understand techically what you are saying, but I fail to see how it applies practically. Your claim assumes the people who make up the Church have clear hearing to what Christ is speaking to them, and so any decisions or interpretations of Scripture the individuals of the Church make come directly from Christ.

I fail to see this ever happening in real life.

Well wait a couple of million years I think we will all see more clearly, some see more clearly now, but the rest of us might have to wait, but what is a million years for an eternal soul in an eternal Church? The majority of people who make up the Christian Church don't live on this earth, and yes they are correct so it is very practical. Our leaders are literally the Apostles.

I think we just need to be clear that the Church of Christ, founded by Him will not be wrong will not turn its back on Isreal or persecute people, it can't persecute itself.

[Guest yod]

Sorry, Smalcald, but you are still not making sense.

I understand techically what you are saying, but I fail to see how it applies practically. Your claim assumes the people who make up the Church have clear hearing to what Christ is speaking to them, and so any decisions or interpretations of Scripture the individuals of the Church make come directly from Christ.

I fail to see this ever happening in real life.

Well wait a couple of million years I think we will all see more clearly, some see more clearly now, but the rest of us might have to wait, but what is a million years for an eternal soul in an eternal Church? The majority of people who make up the Christian Church don't live on this earth, and yes they are correct so it is very practical. Our leaders are literally the Apostles.

I think we just need to be clear that the Church of Christ, founded by Him will not be wrong will not turn its back on Isreal or persecute people, it can't persecute itself.

but here is where your idealistic concept falls apart;

There is no such thing as a "christian church" in the bible. It is a totally post-biblical concept. Yeshua didn't come to start a new religion. The kahal, or assembly, was never a separate institution from Israel in the scriptures; yet that separation happened quickly after the assembly had become completely gentile and began stigmatizing anything jewish.

So when you say the "christian church" could never be separate from it's head, my response is that the institution known as the christian church voluntarily separated itself from all things Israel and/or jewish within the first 3 centuries of its inception even though they claim the King of the Jews as the head. This is how we got the Crusades, Inquisitions, Pogroms, and even the Nazis justifying their policies towards the jews using Martin Luther's writings.

Deception doesn't seem to have any boundries. Ignorance has lead to drastic deception even among well-meaning christians....and it continues today.

[MorningGlory]

And what they'll get is a Iranian type Islamic dictorial government. An impoverished, corrupt, terrorist state that will leak continued aid like a sieve into other terrorist groups, and for greater amounts of weapons with which to attack Israel.

Couldn't have said it better myself.