Mental Illness, why is it treated as a sin?

[Scarletprayers]

Amen!

[Vickilynn]

Vickilynn~from what I gather about this tread is that the only posting you want are those that agree with your stance???

Shalom Karen,

Well now, that's pretty rude and ungracious of you dear.

What I don't want in this thread is you promoting casting out demons. THAT is off topic. Thank you.

[Vickilynn]

Hey Axx, this is not a soapbox for rants against the psychiatric practitioners, OK? Please, let's stick to the topic at hand.

If psychiatric practitioners are not part of the "topic" concerning mental illness...then you understand less about mental illness than you think.

Shalom Axx,

Hey now, you don't know what I know and don't know so, please leave the personal barbs at the door, OK?

You have an ax to grind with the psychiatric medical establishment and that's what not we're talking about. We're talking about the patients and our Christian reaction to them.

And yes, you had a CHOICE to drink alcohol.

Really? I did? Not according to you and your mental illness theory. According to the American Psychiatric Assoc. I had a mental illness. Of course, thats hogwash. I didn't have a mental illness, I had an addiction and the cure was repentance. I praise God that I had a strong man of faith in my life that pointed me to Gods solution rather than man's.

And that has nothing to do with the topic at hand Axx. Addiction is not mental illness. OCD is not an addiction as you claim, it is an illness. You are the one who brought alcoholism into this and it doesn't apply because, as you yourself admit, alcoholism is an addiction, not an mental illness.

[Vickilynn]

Matthew 9:

10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

First, let me say that I do not consider mental illness a sin, but a sickness. We are ALL sinners and without Jesus we would perish!

My son is 28-years-old and mentally ill. He accepted Jesus into his heart at the tender age of 3. He loves the Lord.

He admits, at times, that something is "wrong" with him, yet rarely admits to being mentally disabled. He chooses to believe that he has an "anger problem and anxiety". It has taken years for him to even consider taking medication. Just recently, he decided to try meds. This is good, yet he will go from one brand of medication to another because he reads the side effects and they scare him. (They scare me too!)

My son is capable of rage, disrespect, vulgarity, etc. Yet, he is also tender-hearted, generous, sensitive, and loving. When he goes to church, his love and respect for the Lord are very evident. I pray for healing. I pray for help. It is not easy to get help for the mentally ill. Not even from professionals.

I ask you not to condemn the mentally ill, but pray for them. Their lives are tortured from one moment to the next. They need compassion. They need people who are Christ-Like to pray for them, not judge them.

Shalom LadyJane,

EXACTLY the point of this whole thread. Thank you and G-d bless you! May the L-rd touch your son and G-d's people stop condemning and start loving as Jesus would.

[Vickilynn]

Sister Vicki. Thank you for raising this topic. I have battled with depression and the LORD brought me out many times. I am guilty of what you speak of. I was just kept in a battle with my parents and their mental illnesses. I asked God for forgiveness and my parents have forgiven me as well. If you have some advice on what I can say to them, I would appreciate a private message. For so long, I have been upset about the life that they live in poverty, illnesses, etc. and I've been coming in and out of denial and complete detachment to complete co-dependency and worrisome demeanor to anger and being mean tongued towards them in judgement.

I can't seem to find a healthy line and I've prayed to ask God for guidance. He hasn't given me an answer yet. I've been extremely frustrated over this and often times, I can't seem to find the right words to say to them when I am presented with their issues, etc. But when I read your topic, I know He has and I know you are the one to advise me on this.

Thank you very much...

Shalom JamiLea,

I don't know that I can advise you except by what the Word of G-d says. I'll PM you for further discussion.

[Axxman]

Shalom Axx,

Hey now, you don't know what I know and don't know so, please leave the personal barbs at the door, OK?

You have an ax to grind with the psychiatric medical establishment and that's what not we're talking about. We're talking about the patients and our Christian reaction to them.

And that has nothing to do with the topic at hand Axx. Addiction is not mental illness. OCD is not an addiction as you claim, it is an illness. You are the one who brought alcoholism into this and it doesn't apply because, as you yourself admit, alcoholism is an addiction, not an mental illness.

Hey Vickilynn...

It wasn't intended as a personal barb...the comment was prefaced with an "If," I apologize for the way it sounded. If any of my posts sound like a personal attack, please forgive me. It is not intended. I am passionate about this topic because of my personal experiences and those of my wife (hers were way worse than mine.) Please accept my passion for what it is and know that I won't intentionally try to say hurtful or personal things.

Of course I have an ax to grind with the psychiatric (not medical) establishment. It is what we are talking about because I believe that industry is leading people further into oppression. If you ask me "why i treat mental illness as a sin?' The answer lies in the psychiatric industry. You don't want me to use the psychiatric industry as evidence because the very industry that invented the whole "mental illness" theory undermines your position that mental illnesses are real.

I brought alcoholism into it because it is classified as a mental illness by the APA...and we both KNOW its not a mental illness. Now you claim that alcohol can't "apply" to the convo either because it undermines your position and beliefs that mental illnesses (as defined by the APA) are not really mental illnesses. If the APA is wrong about alcoholism (and they are)...then how can you be so sure that they are right about "illnesses" like OCD, depression, post-partum, etc. They have the same amount of biological etiology for those 'illnesses' as they do for alcoholism...NONE!

Maybe you can tell me why you believe so strongly that OCD is a biological illness. We've kind of focused on why I believe the way I do...maybe it would help to see why you can't see it my way.

(edited to remove something that sounded a bit harsh... )

[anitarose]

Can I add something to this?

As someone who is currently suffering from clinical depression and PTSD, I can say that mental illness is not a sin persay, IMHO. The problem is, when you wander away from God and dwell in the mental illness and not allow Him to heal you and use you in the healing of others.

I know this is an area that I feel I have gotten attacked in recently. It's very difficult to deal with an illness when you have others around you (not just here, but other sites and IRL) telling you to "get off the pity party". Sorry, this isn't a pity party. It's a chemical problem.

I've been on St John's Wort for almost a week now, and I'm starting to see results. I'm also doing a lot of studying and praying. You know, some of the great leaders in the Bible were depressed. Moses, David, Elijah---all suffered from it. Some of the early leaders of Christianity were, too, like Spurgeon. So I guess I'm in good company. God used all these men and women. I guess he can use me, too.

Anita

[Vickilynn]

Hey Vickilynn...

It wasn't intended as a personal barb...the comment was prefaced with an "If," I apologize for the way it sounded. If any of my posts sound like a personal attack, please forgive me. It is not intended. I am passionate about this topic because of my personal experiences and those of my wife (hers were way worse than mine.) Please accept my passion for what it is and know that I won't intentionally try to say hurtful or personal things.

Shalom Axx,

Thank you Bro. I understand passion, believe me. Thank you for clarifying that you were not making a personal attack.

Of course I have an ax to grind with the psychiatric (not medical) establishment. It is what we are talking about because I believe that industry is leading people further into oppression. If you ask me "why i treat mental illness as a sin?' The answer lies in the psychiatric industry. You don't want me to use the psychiatric industry as evidence because the very industry that invented the whole "mental illness" theory undermines your position that mental illnesses are real.

No, I disagree. The psychiatric establishment does not call sin an illness, but rather identifies medical causations for mental illness.

Now, I agree that some of the MEDICAL community has wrongly labeled addictions as diseases, but you and I agree that addictions are not diseases, so I don't see that we need to argue that fact.

I brought alcoholism into it because it is classified as a mental illness by the APA...and we both KNOW its not a mental illness. Now you claim that alcohol can't "apply" to the convo either because it undermines your position and beliefs that mental illnesses (as defined by the APA) are not really mental illnesses. If the APA is wrong about alcoholism (and they are)...then how can you be so sure that they are right about "illnesses" like OCD, depression, post-partum, etc.

Because of my experience and because in addiction, one has the CHOICE (as you did to drink or not) and in true illness or disorder, the person cannot choose not to exhibit their behavior.

They have the same amount of biological etiology for those 'illnesses' as they do for alcoholism...NONE!

Again, that is not the standard we are referring to here. There are plenty of diseases recognized NOW that had no physiological proof until a test was developed. Until it was people were told MS and other diseases "were all in their head" because no test could prove their claims that they were ill. The same with mental illness. The argument that no test exists does not negate the medical causation of the disease or disorder.

Maybe you can tell me why you believe so strongly that OCD is a biological illness. We've kind of focused on why I believe the way I do...maybe it would help to see why you can't see it my way.

I believe it is a disorder with a medical causation because the patient desires to NOT behave in the manner of OCD, yet they cannot control their behavior, even with repentance and trying with all their might, praying etc. I believe that many emotional disorders and mental illnesses are definitely chemically-related (being the body's lack of a balance of hormones etc.) and in those cases, medications DO help.

I believe depression is the big one, as is Post-partum depression (caused by hormones).

I've seen it working in the field of emergency medical response and in the lives of loved ones.

(edited to remove something that sounded a bit harsh... )

Thank you Bro for editing that out!

[Axxman]

Maybe you can tell me why you believe so strongly that OCD is a biological illness. We've kind of focused on why I believe the way I do...maybe it would help to see why you can't see it my way.

I believe it is a disorder with a medical causation because the patient desires to NOT behave in the manner of OCD, yet they cannot control their behavior, even with repentance and trying with all their might, praying etc. I believe that many emotional disorders and mental illnesses are definitely chemically-related (being the body's lack of a balance of hormones etc.) and in those cases, medications DO help.

I believe depression is the big one, as is Post-partum depression (caused by hormones).

I've seen it working in the field of emergency medical response and in the lives of loved ones.

You just described most smokers that I've known. They don't desire to smoke, they feel they can't control it, and no amount of prayer, repentance, or "trying with all their might" can make them stop. They are addicted both physically and mentally. People with mental illnesses exhibit certain behaviors because they are addicited to whatever stimuli they receive from their behavior, both physical and mental.

I gotta admit that your killin' me with the constant references to chemical-related disorders...lol. They don't exist. You'd think that with almost 400 APA recognized mental illnesses that they would have discovered at least one chemical imbalance to prove it existed. Just because they give you a seratonin reuptake pill (SSRI) and it makes you "feel" better...doesn't mean that you had a seratonin imbalance. Maybe its because the pill has about 25 side-effects. On a side note...I've always found it odd that SSRI's are given as an anti-depressant, but one of its leading side-effects is depression and suicidal ideation. Weird.

Postpartum depression doesn't have a biological cause. There are theories about a hormonal imbalance, but thats just as unproven as any other chemical imbalance. There are just as many theories that PPD is caused by social factors including low income, low self-esteem, or a bad marriage. And did you know that the APA says men can get PPD too??? How ridiculous! For the record, if you are depressed after you have a baby you will be diagnosed as having PPD if you fall into socio-statistical catagories...not medical catagories. Are you comfortable with women being drugged because they are depressed after having a baby based on how much money they make, or stressing about childcare, or are a single parent? Believe it or not, those are determining factors and psychiatrists will prescribe drugs based on those factors without doing a SINGLE medical test.

More quotes from qualified professionals...

"Low serotonin levels are no more the cause of depression than low aspirin levels are the cause of headaches." -- Leo and Lacasee, Public Library of Science Medicine, DOI: 10.1371/journal.pmed.002092

"First, no biological etiology has been proven for any psychiatric disorder (except Alzheimer's disease, which has a genetic component) in spite of decades of research. ... So don't accept the myth that we can make an 'accurate diagnosis.' ... Neither should you believe that your problems are due solely to a 'chemical imbalance.'" Edward Drummond, M.D., Associate Medical Director at Seacoast Mental Health Center in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, in his book The Complete Guide to Psychiatric Drugs Dr. Drummond graduated from Tufts University School of Medicine and was trained in psychiatry at Harvard University.

"In medicine, strict criteria exist for calling a condition a disease. In addition to a predictable cluster of symptoms, the cause of the symptoms or some understanding of their physiology must be established. ... Psychiatry is unique among medical specialties in that... We do not yet have proof either of the cause or the physiology for any psychiatric diagnosis. ... In recent decades, we have had no shortage of alleged biochemical imbalances for psychiatric conditions. Diligent though these attempts have been, not one has been proven. Quite the contrary. In every instance where such an imbalance was thought to have been found, it was later proven false. ... No claim of a gene for a psychiatric condition has stood the test of time, in spite of popular misinformation." Joseph Glenmullen, M.D., clinical instructor in psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, in his book Prozac Backlash

[Vickilynn]

You just described most smokers that I've known. They don't desire to smoke, they feel they can't control it, and no amount of prayer, repentance, or "trying with all their might" can make them stop. They are addicted both physically and mentally. People with mental illnesses exhibit certain behaviors because they are addicited to whatever stimuli they receive from their behavior, both physical and mental.

Shalom Axx,

Sorry, people are not born smoking, nor is smoking addiction a result of anything BUT choice. Yes, there is a physical and mental addiction that occurs AFTER one's CHOICE, but this does not reflect the same circumstances as a true mentla illness or disorder, let's drop these Strawmen arguments!

Just because they give you a seratonin reuptake pill (SSRI) and it makes you "feel" better...doesn't mean that you had a seratonin imbalance.

Not true. While I was in critical condition and dying, I was having chest pains. They could not determine if I was having an MI, so the "test" was to give me nitroglycerin and if I "felt" better, they would conclude I was having cardiac issues and proceed with that initial treatment. As it turned out, the nitro DID make me feel better and I was found later to have cardiac issues as a result of bleeding around the heart. So, don't tell me that a challenge of medication and assessing the symptoms is not standard medical protocol - it is.

If one does truly have a seratonin imbalance, many times the SSRI will address the problem and the patient will see symptoms subside. Caveat: Many people with and without mental illness experience something called a "placebo effect" and so a medication challenge is not the only course of treatment, but it is a valid one.

I gotta admit that your killin' me with the constant references to chemical-related disorders...lol. They don't exist. You'd think that with almost 400 APA recognized mental illnesses that they would have discovered at least one chemical imbalance to prove it existed.

For someone who condemns the medical and psychiatric establishment, you sure use them to support your position when it suits your position, even though the argument has been proven to be false in this discussion.

More quotes from qualified professionals...

The same "qualified professionals" that you vilify and condemn as not knowing what they are talking about? Sorry, you can't have it both ways AXX.

Yes, chemical imbalances exist. And no, just because the documentation is being disputed does not mean they don't exist. AGAIN: this is not the standard for diagnosing some illnesses that have no blood test or other diagnostic tests, (such as years ago, MS was thought to be "all in the patient's" head, the same as fibromyalgia). In these cases, certain disorders are ruled out by the tests they DO have and the patient undergoes trial treatment of symptoms. If the symptoms abate it carries a great deal if weight in the diagnosis.

However AXX, I really think we are chasing a false topic here. The OP asks HOW we should treat these people?

No one is ever going to convince you that these dear people are really ill because you absolutely refuse to accept the possibility.

I know, from experience and training, that mental illnesses ARE true illness.

Let's stop going around this mulberry bush of repeated the same things over and over (you say they are made up, I say they are real) and get to the REAL issue - HOW should these people be treated by Christians? Just telling them to repent of some nebulous "sin" is not the correct response according to the Scriptures.