Pre-destiny or Choice

[DjZed]

When a person's name is written in the book of life they are destined to receive life. Receiving life (eternal) is being born into God's kingdom. Once they have received the gift of life, THEN they have a choice as to what they do with the gift. Some to eternal reward and some to eternal punishment. The parables relate to these people (those in the kingdom) - not all of mankind.

explain with a little more depth. not sure exactly what you are saying.

[DjZed]

okay so are we dispensible or not? Let us say Noah was called and instructed...and Noah replied NO! Would Jesus find someone else?

I an getting a better understanding of what is being said..

in romans 8-30 i am not sure I am understanding all of the explanation.

If what I read I believe what is being said is that one is discussing Jesus as being predestined and His work.. but I find some counfusion in the plurality of the pronouns being used. Jeus's work is done and even He I am sure was given a choice as well as he also, knowing what had to be done asked His Father if there be any other way..to pass this cup.

All have a function in the kingdom of God whether they acknowledge it or not. Ceaser, judas, pharoah. Jesus I KNOW had a hand on me since a child , but was not aware until I met up with Him. What if I never came to know Him then I was not predestined.?

Cant say if he would have chosen someoneelse. if he did it would mean the same for the redemption of man. Yes christ did lay down his own life. My opinion is that yes even the wicked are chosen fo their role. And yes you would have been predestined, but for wrath not salvation.

God has not chosen any one for wrath,we bring wrath upon ourselves,by not accepting the free gift of salvation offered to ALL who will receive it.

Read romans Vessels i belive. god has predestined them for wrath. That is what they were made for. But has predestined the elect for restoration to himself. Predestined us for glory!

God has shown his mercy to those fitted for destruction(the Gentiles)so that they too may receive Christ and escape God's wrath.

The only ones that will endure the wrath of God are those that choose to reject the salvation offered to us ALL.

So these are just two camps of believers in this passage? the ones prepared for destruction are the saved gentiles? Do my questions make sense?

[Mutzrein]

When a person's name is written in the book of life they are destined to receive life. Receiving life (eternal) is being born into God's kingdom. Once they have received the gift of life, THEN they have a choice as to what they do with the gift. Some to eternal reward and some to eternal punishment. The parables relate to these people (those in the kingdom) - not all of mankind.

explain with a little more depth. not sure exactly what you are saying.

What aspect would you like explanation of?

[DjZed]

reply is to onwingsofaneagle

Those prepared for destruction were Gentile but through the sacrifice of Jesus we are now able to be saved and become saints just as the jews were able to in the O.T.

vrs 4 belongs to isrealites

vrs 5 the fathers( included abram the gentile)

the christ according to the flesh ( isreal )

vrs 6 the word of god did not fail, -----the word did not fail, isrealites who had no faith did.(the unbeliever)

not all isreal (physical isreal) is isreal ( beliveing isreal)

vs 7 they are not children of god (believers)because they are abrahams seed ( physical isreal)

vs 8 not the children of the flesh( physical isreal) but the children of the promise are regarded as descendents( believers)

vs 9 a word of promise, sarah shall have a son - which is in refrence to the descendents in vs 8

vs 10 11 12 13 / not only that but rebekah had twins, they hadnt done anything good or bad and god says jacob i loved, esau i hated. but this was in order that gods choice might stand, not because of works, but because of HIM whou calls.

(He chose jacob who was a gentile until he was renamed,the 1st of physical and believing isreal. esau was a gentile)

vs 14 , so, is there any injustice with god,no.

vs 15 god has mercy and compasion on whom he choses (physical isreal & gentile)

vs 16 doesnt depend on man who wills or runs, depends on god who has mercy.(gentile & physical isreal)

vs 17 pharoh was raised up that gods name would be proclaimed throught whole earth(gentile egypt, Physical isreal)

vs 18 god has mercy(believing gentiles and believing isreal) and hardens whom he desires.(Gentiles and physical isrea)

vs.19 if god does this why does he find fault in us

vs 20 who are you to dispute god the thing molded doesnt say why did you make me this way.

vs 21 the potter has right over the clay to make from the same lump one for honor(believers) one for dishonor (unbelievers).

vs 22 what if god, although willing to demonstrate his wrath,had patience with vessels of wrath (unbelievers)

vs 23 God endured so that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mery, which he prepared beforehand for glory (all believers), whom he called , not from the jews only, but from the gentiles also.

i'll stop there. Paul is trying to get them to understand throughtout romans several things. I think the point here is that believers are believers because god makes them that way.its not based on the physical anything,not works, not works of the law,not on geneoligy, but on god. It is about a sovergn god. I do not get that vessels of distruction are the gentiles out of this passage. paul does focus quite a bit here on the jew/gentile relationships so i can see reading into the text.

Edited January 4, 2008 by DjZed

[getat151]

Cardcaptor i dont wanna believe in predestination but what other way can u explain it.....of course it doesnt seem fair but gods ways are higher than ours and we dont understand everything...even paul said he sees through a glass dimly......only for a moment...

of course it doesnt seem fair at all........maybe thats why paul said "does that make god not fair"....."who are you to judge god"..........."does the pot say to the poter why did u make me this way"....why else would paul say that if predestination wasnt the doctrin he was pushing...everything he said about predestination seems clear......i dont see any other interpretation....thats why i posted this i wanted someone to go line by line and interpret it.......

[DjZed]

WHAT Djzed said is exactly what im saying.........i didnt choose to believe in jesus.......i heard sermon after sermon and didnt believe....then all of a sudden i felt his spirit come over me...and it was gods spirit in me that confessed jesus as my lord and savior not my personal choice.....i think god always sets out a choice...but he also says no one seeks after him...not one so...in his mercy he sends his spirit to convict and save the ones that were predestined for glorification... and in the end the ones that didnt follow god get to see they had a choice but out of there wickedness they "chose" not to belive...but if you think about it they just didnt recieve the gift of faith...

this is a guess based on my interpretation of scripture............but i also see scriptures that see to go the other way.....like people that get saved then fall away....they couldnt of been predestined to get the holy spirit just to greive it right?.....so this leaves me with a bit of confusion lol...

Predestination is so unfair to the people who are not predestined to go to heaven. If I have no control over my belief and have already been predestined to go to heaven, then we do those who are not controlled with belief and are not predestined? Do they not have a choice that they are going to hell?

The Spirit does not do this for people. God does not start working in our lives until after we have been born again. Not before. It is our hearing of the "Word" that causes us to believe -

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God is no respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Predestination and not having control over my belief is "respecting persons".

You do choose to believe in Jesus or this scripture would be unfair

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

And Jesus would not have, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". The "whosoever" is leaving the salvation of Jesus left open for the whole world and that is why he died for the whole world.

Its not a matter of fairness. we all deserve hell. thats true fairness. It is the mercy and forgiveness of god given to us freely by god that you say is unfair! Does your choice make it fair or unfair?

How is that god being a respector of persons? Because hes sovergn and chose us. he did not choose me on any merit at all. Thats what romans mainly addresses. salvation not based on works of the law. or any work,deed, word spoken or prayer. You were not even able to look towards god. You could never please him. But his sheep hear his voice and they know him. You recognized your redemtion. it doesnt meen you chose redemtion, you only recieved redemtion.

Edited January 3, 2008 by DjZed

[DjZed]

God wants All to be saved 1st tim 2:4 and it is his will that none should parish 2nd pet 3:9

Those that perish are not saved and therefore perish because they deny Jesus Christ,not because God willed them to hell.

i want to reply to this but don't have time.

I will be back hopefully friday to continue with you all!

Thanks, i enjoy this greatly.

Edited January 3, 2008 by DjZed

[Guest]

"We love him, because he first loved us" 1 John 4:19

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:6

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" 2 Corinthians 5:17

"As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." Psalm 103:12

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. " John 8:36

it doesn't mean you chose redemption, you only receive redemption.

When You Look At The Huge Distance God Reaches Down To Offer Us His Salvation It Sure Does Seems Like We Do Nothing.....

"The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3

Then I Read..... Choose You This Day Whom Ye Will Serve

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

And Again When I Read..... Whosoever Will Let Him Take The Water Of Life Freely

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:16-17

I'm Led To Believe That God Really Did Mean It When He Offered The Lord Jesus Up For ALL Men To See And To Believe In And To Have Everlasting Life!

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:14-16

If We Would Just Repent

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;" Acts 3:19

Just Confess And Believe

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10

And By His Grace, God Even Offers The Very Faith Needed For Salvation

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

If We Would But Believe God.....

"They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him." Psalms 126:5-6

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Smalcald]

It is a mystery to some degree and I think intentionally so.

Scripture would not support the idea that we decide ourselves to have faith, in that we were dead and dead men cannot decide anything. Christ comes to us, we do not call Christ down.

Of course as cardcaptor says we have the choice to follow or not, to run away or not.

[EricH]

The problem is that we try and understand things like election given our understanding of and our orientation with respect to time. We tend to see everything in a linear way. God is outside of time. He dwells in the past, present, and future simultaneously