The Book of Life and Great White Throne judgement

[Christian]

Greeting Brother Dennis,

First of all let me tell you that you have not failed in any way regarding our study, as you stated you felt you had in your previous post. To the contrary, your humble nature, lack of ego, precise statements, and adherence to Holy Scripture makes your input as honest as one could ask for.

I appreciate you not taking offense to my request for brevity, but it does really help keep my thoughts on point. As difficult as some of the subject matter we discuss is, it's good to digest small morsels at a time so they can be savored slowly, and concentrated upon. Lengthy posts only serve to scatter the thinking sometimes, as it tends to introduce peripheral information that the mind is also very eager to address.

I do believe the Holy Spirit to be the primary instructor, but also believe that the Lord may use other sincere brothers and sisters at times to speak to us through, because they can convey things to us in a certain way...that's just my humble opinion.

Question#3(YES or NO) If this is the moment being spoken of in 1Thessalonians 4:16-17, you believe that we return to heaven with Christ, and not that He returns to earth here to begin His 1000 year reign?

Yes! No one left on earth to reign over.

I tend to gravitate towards this outlook also for two reasons.

1)I could never wrap my head around the concept of Jesus, and us in our glorified bodies, living side by side with a filthy, corrupt corporeal mankind.

2) Every account I know of in scripture speaking of His return tells of what seems like the utter destruction of the earth and it's inhabitants that comes with it.

Question#4(YES or NO) You believe this assembly in heaven that occurs right after 1Thessalonians 4:16-17, to be the Wedding Feast that Christ spoke of?

Yes! Jesus takes His bride to the feast to present her to His Father, and carry her into the Bridal chamber He has prepared.

This again for me squares more with scripture as I am not an adherent of the "secret" or "pre-tribulation" rapture cults. It makes no sense to me to have this feast without all of those who looked to Christ for salvation and accepted Him as Lord and Savior... all the way through till the end of the age (post tribulation). How could anyone think that those saved during the horrors of the tribulation would have any less value or less of a place next to Christ at the Wedding.

Question#5(YES or NO) You're saying that all those in Christ (alive and dead) are taken to heaven, and the remaining civilization/mankind of Earth is wiped out completely?

Yes! Luke 17, states on the same day.

I have posed this question previously in this thread in regard to "who would be left to reign over" if all scriptures referring to His return seem to imply the earth being laid bare. But it went unaddressed. For the record though, I do agree with you

Question#6 If your answer to #5 is yes, than who is spoken of as being gathered in Revelation 20:8?

(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

(If your answer to #6 was no, than there is no need to elaborate)

They would be all those who are raised, all the lost, in the 2nd Resurrection.... In the four quarters of the earth I believe means all those who dwell in the earth, who are buried in the earth. They are raised for Judgment and think that they can still fight God.

One thing that intrigues me about this moment we speak of here is the next verse Revelation 20:9

(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth,

and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:.....

If indeed we are have been at the Wedding, and are currently "residing" in the mansions of our Father at this time, the "camp of the saints" and the "beloved city" would be in heaven. Those "encompassing" it would have to have the ability to "approach/attack" it (Satan, fallen angels, the translated dead not in Christ?), unless it is just being spoken of figuratively. This remnant of "anti-christians" could certainly give some credence to a vast number of unsaved souls being here to be "gathered" for battle, particularly when the "nations" spoken of are merely to reflect a "non-Jewish, pagan people".

Well I should heed my own request for brevity as my inclusion of previous quotes has made this appear a bit lengthy I realize.

May His peace rest upon you dear brother, and thank you for your continued presence here

His faithful servant,

Christian

[Massorite]

Brother Massorite,

God bless you and thanks for your reply.

You wrote:

But there is no place in the bible where it says that the book of life has a record our sins written in it. There is only scripture that tells us that there are names written in the book of Life.

I didn't say that the Book of Life has our sins recorded in it. I said that it was probably the book of Remembrance, for God remembers everything, whether written or not. If the believers sins are blotted out, then they must be recorded somewhere, and being the Book of Remembrance is the only other book mentioned, then I believe they would be their and that is where they would be blotted out of, blotted out of God's remembrance.

And where is this book of Remembrance spoken of in the bible?

In my last post to you I quoted Mal. 3:16-18 in which the Book of Remembrance is mentioned as being used to discern or judge between the righteous and the wicked.

These things are hardly ever talked about for not many want to think about the judgment for it can be unsettling for the 'Lukewarm'.

May God richly bless you in you pursuit of truth,

Dennis

Very Good. I looked it up and yes there is a book of Remembrance. I am always amazed at how no matter how much I think I know about the bible there is always more to learn about. I will be doing some research on that.

I don't believe that our sins are recorded anywhere and this book of remembrance has to do with those who feared (respected) God and those who thought or pondered upon the Lord. I believe that once we as Christians ask forgiveness for our sins they are instantly thrown into the sea of forgetfulness.

[Pilgrim7]

Brother Christian, thanks for your thoughtful reply:

One thing that intrigues me about this moment we speak of here is the next verse Revelation 20:9

(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth,

and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:.....

If indeed we are have been at the Wedding, and are currently "residing" in the mansions of our Father at this time, the "camp of the saints" and the "beloved city" would be in heaven. Those "encompassing" it would have to have the ability to "approach/attack" it (Satan, fallen angels, the translated dead not in Christ?), unless it is just being spoken of figuratively. This remnant of "anti-Christians" could certainly give some credence to a vast number of unsaved souls being here to be "gathered" for battle, particularly when the "nations" spoken of are merely to reflect a "non-Jewish, pagan people".

The way I see it, that after the 1000 years in heaven, the 'beloved city' the 'New Jerusalem', comes down from heaven to the earth with Jesus and all the saints. At the 2nd coming of Jesus for His bride, He is through with with this earth, and through with 'Old Jerusalem' until after the 1000 years, and thus destroys it all.

At the same time, after the 1000 years, the 2nd resurrection takes place and Satan is unchained. I see no evidence for any, not in Christ, ever being translated, only resurrected on this earth for judgment. When they realize what has happened, and see the 'beloved city', they encompass it with the intention of taking it, and this is where and when the 'White Throne Judgment' takes place, this is where every knee bows to the Lord, this is where the lost are cast into the 'Lake of fire', that destroys the wicked and makes the earth like new again. This is where the saved can see the lost burn in the Lake of fire, as described in Luke 16.

This happens after the 1000 years:

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city (beloved city), new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a (with the) bride adorned for her husband.

21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

In context he is referring to the first resurrection, and then states that the rest of the dead, the lost, were not resurrected until after the 1000 years.

Four things happen after the 1000 years, Satan is loosed from his chains, the lost are resurrected in the 2nd resurrection, the Holy city descends from heaven adorned with the bride and the Bridegroom and the 'White Throne Judgment' takes place.

Your brother and fellow servant in Christ,

Dennis

[Pilgrim7]

Brother Massorite,

There is so much to learn still. I believe that we will be learning throughout eternity. All sins are in God's memory, His remembrance for he forgets nothing except what He chooses to forget. In order to be blotted out, they must be recorded somewhere and blotted out of that record. And on that point you and I would seem to be in agreement. The faithful, wheat, those who endure to the end, have their sins blotted out of God's remembrance, He chooses to not remember them.

Yet for those unfaithful 'believers', the tares, their sins are not blotted out and meet them in the 'White Throne Judgment' and they will pay 'every last farthing' for their transgressions.

Your friend and brother in Christ,

Dennis

[Massorite]

Brother Christian, thanks for your thoughtful reply:

One thing that intrigues me about this moment we speak of here is the next verse Revelation 20:9

(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth,

and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:.....

If indeed we are have been at the Wedding, and are currently "residing" in the mansions of our Father at this time, the "camp of the saints" and the "beloved city" would be in heaven. Those "encompassing" it would have to have the ability to "approach/attack" it (Satan, fallen angels, the translated dead not in Christ?), unless it is just being spoken of figuratively. This remnant of "anti-Christians" could certainly give some credence to a vast number of unsaved souls being here to be "gathered" for battle, particularly when the "nations" spoken of are merely to reflect a "non-Jewish, pagan people".

The way I see it, that after the 1000 years in heaven, the 'beloved city' the 'New Jerusalem', comes down from heaven to the earth with Jesus and all the saints. At the 2nd coming of Jesus for His bride, He is through with with this earth, and through with 'Old Jerusalem' until after the 1000 years, and thus destroys it all.

At the same time, after the 1000 years, the 2nd resurrection takes place and Satan is unchained. I see no evidence for any, not in Christ, ever being translated, only resurrected on this earth for judgment. When they realize what has happened, and see the 'beloved city', they encompass it with the intention of taking it, and this is where and when the 'White Throne Judgment' takes place, this is where every knee bows to the Lord, this is where the lost are cast into the 'Lake of fire', that destroys the wicked and makes the earth like new again. This is where the saved can see the lost burn in the Lake of fire, as described in Luke 16.

This happens after the 1000 years:

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city (beloved city), new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a (with the) bride adorned for her husband.

21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

In context he is referring to the first resurrection, and then states that the rest of the dead, the lost, were not resurrected until after the 1000 years.

Four things happen after the 1000 years, Satan is loosed from his chains, the lost are resurrected in the 2nd resurrection, the Holy city descends from heaven adorned with the bride and the Bridegroom and the 'White Throne Judgment' takes place.

Your brother and fellow servant in Christ,

Dennis

Ok Pilgrim here is a question for you. Revelation 22:2 "In the midst of the street of it and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits and yieldedc her fruits every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations".

If what you say is true then why is there a tree of life with leaves for the healing of the nations? If everybody has been made perfect and all of those who nwere left on earth were wiped out why do the nations still have the need to be healed after the great white throne judgement?

Gotchya

[Pilgrim7]

Massorite,

You wrote:

Ok Pilgrim here is a question for you. Revelation 22:2 "In the midst of the street of it and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits and yieldedc her fruits every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations".

If what you say is true then why is there a tree of life with leaves for the healing of the nations? If everybody has been made perfect and all of those who nwere left on earth were wiped out why do the nations still have the need to be healed after the great white throne judgement?

Gotchya

It is always good to look at the original words translated before arriving at the meaning of a passage. Those who are part of the kingdom of God at this time do not need healing in the sense you mean. They need to eat to of the tree of life in order to maintain life and health, just as Adam did.

The word, #2322 therapeia ther-ap-i'-ah is a noun and can be translated as health, wellbeing, attendance or service of:

The word for nation can be used for any multitude of people, which would be the great multitude that no man can number.

As the saved will need to eat of the Fruit of the Tree of Life, just as Adam and Eve did, they will probably use the leaves also for they have many beneficial properties. This is not an area where I will not speculate.

It does not however negate any of the Scriptural evidence presented so far. You see all scripture needs to harmonize in order to to arive at truth. One Scripture does not a doctrine make nor does it negate any other Scripture.

I believe we are seeking to understand the Scripture better and not involved in a game of one-uppmanship. It is not a contest to see who is right, but a search for truth. I hardly see where Rev 22:2 rates a 'gotcha' as though you 'checkmated' me. If you wish to believe otherwise, that is your privilege but it might prove more beneficial to look at the verses presented and try to understand them instead of trying to find a way of countering them.

Your brother in Christ,

Dennis

[Christian]

Greeting Brother Dennis,

Was away yesterday, just catching up now...

The way I see it, that after the 1000 years in heaven, the 'beloved city' the 'New Jerusalem', comes down from heaven to the earth with Jesus and all the saints. At the 2nd coming of Jesus for His bride, He is through with with this earth, and through with 'Old Jerusalem' until after the 1000 years, and thus destroys it all.

I have this same understanding, and as I've said before, that nothing that I have read ever leads me to believe that we in "glorified" form would be living side by side with corrupt, corporeal mankind here on earth.

At the same time, after the 1000 years, the 2nd resurrection takes place and Satan is unchained. I see no evidence for any, not in Christ, ever being translated, only resurrected on this earth for judgment.

I was only using "translated" as a term of description since we are never exactly told what form these "resurrected" individuals would be in. Since the dust of the graves will not be rising in a cloud, I can only assume that they will be rising "translated"... of course not "glorified", but translated in some way post death, since I don't believe the flesh and blood life will be coming back to them.

...this is where and when the 'White Throne Judgment' takes place, this is where every knee bows to the Lord, this is where the lost are cast into the 'Lake of fire', that destroys the wicked and makes the earth like new again. This is where the saved can see the lost burn in the Lake of fire, as described in Luke 16.

Two things here brother

1) There is no reference to the Lake of Fire you speak of in Luke 16.

2) It seems strange to me that this place of eternal torment would be here on the "new earth with the new heaven", but I guess we are not told of the exact location/proximity of this place in relation to the New Jerusalem? In other words, I don't get the impression that the Lake of Fire is "a place that the saved will be able to go hang out and watch the lost burn on nights they have nothing better to do". (mild sarcasm intended )

Look forward to your thoughts brother,

Hope you are well,

Have a blessed day,

Your brother in Christ,

Christian

[Massorite]

Masonite,

You wrote:

OK Pilgrim here is a question for you. Revelation 22:2 "In the midst of the street of it and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits and yielded her fruits every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations".

If what you say is true then why is there a tree of life with leaves for the healing of the nations? If everybody has been made perfect and all of those who were left on earth were wiped out why do the nations still have the need to be healed after the great white throne judgment?

Gotcha

It is always good to look at the original words translated before arriving at the meaning of a passage. Those who are part of the kingdom of God at this time do not need healing in the sense you mean. They need to eat to of the tree of life in order to maintain life and health, just as Adam did.

The word, #2322 therapeia ther-ap-i'-ah is a noun and can be translated as health, wellbeing, attendance or service of:

The word for nation can be used for any multitude of people, which would be the great multitude that no man can number.

As the saved will need to eat of the Fruit of the Tree of Life, just as Adam and Eve did, they will probably use the leaves also for they have many beneficial properties. This is not an area where I will not speculate.

It does not however negate any of the Scriptural evidence presented so far. You see all scripture needs to harmonize in order to to arive at truth. One Scripture does not a doctrine make nor does it negate any other Scripture.

I believe we are seeking to understand the Scripture better and not involved in a game of one-uppmanship. It is not a contest to see who is right, but a search for truth. I hardly see where Rev 22:2 rates a 'gotcha' as though you 'checkmated' me. If you wish to believe otherwise, that is your privilege but it might prove more beneficial to look at the verses presented and try to understand them instead of trying to find a way of countering them.

Your brother in Christ,

Dennis

I was making a joke about the one up stuff. We can have a little fun sometimes you know. Sorry if you were offended.

Your statement about Adam and Eve eating from the tree of life has no scriptural foundation. Adam was never commanded to eat from or not to eat from the tree of life and as scripture goes he never did eat from it. The possibility that he might eat from the tree of life was the reason God removed Adam and Eve from the garden in the first place. Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold the man is become as one of Us to know good from evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever:-". This is scriptural proof that Adam and Eve never did eat from the tree of life because Adam and Eve died. If Adam and Eve had already eaten from the tree of life they would still be alive today. It only took eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to know good and evil and it would have only taken eating from the tree of life once to live forever. Your belief that Adam and Eve eat from the tree of life is an assumption with no scriptural foundation and the bible actually says the opposite as you have just read. So your assertion about Adam and Eve eating from the tree of life does not harmonize with anything written anywhere in the bible.

According to the Strong's the word "Healing" in Rev 22:2 is speaking of a "cure" and comes from the root word "attendance" as in "serving, adoring, and cherishing". In the Thayer's Greek lexicon the word "healing" is speaking of a "medical service, a curing, and a healing". Taking all of this and other scriptures into consideration I have come to the conclusion that this verse is speaking of how God is going to be loving on us in the new Jerusalem. There is nothing written here as to what we will be needing a healing from and to assert any particular reason would be an assumption with no scriptural bases. If God washes away our tears and we are no longer in the flesh and the sinful nature has been removed from us there would be nothing that we would be needing a healing from. And it would seem to me that to think that we do need a healing from something would be a biblical contradiction.

[Pilgrim7]

Massorite,

No offense taken, thanks for your response, but I'm not sure I understand your point. I appreciate a little humor. I will break it down and maybe you can elaborate.

Your statement about Adam and Eve eating from the tree of life has no scriptural foundation. Adam was never commanded to eat from or not to eat from the tree of life and as scripture goes he never did eat from it.

Adam was never commanded to eat from any of the trees of the Garden, he was given permission to eat from all of the trees all of the trees except for one, thus it not a stretch that he ate from the Tree of life.

The possibility that he might eat from the tree of life was the reason God removed Adam and Eve from the garden in the first place. Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold the man is become as one of Us to know good from evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever:-". This is scriptural proof that Adam and Eve never did eat from the tree of life because Adam and Eve died.

I think I see your point here, but it is a stretch to say that it is proof that they did not ever eat of the tree. I don't pretend to understand all these things, but Here is a tree that helps maintain Eternal Life. spiritual life, and they didn't eat of it. that could be called a stretch. You see It is possible the fruit was for the maintenance of Eternal life, not the bestowal of Eternal life. Eternal life was given to Adam at creation. The spirit of life was breathed into Adam at creation, so all that was needed was the maintenance of that Eternal life. The essential quality of eternal life is the presence of the Spirit of God. Adam had lost the spirit through disobedience, not the contents of the fruit, and thus had lost Eternal Life. Thus the need to remove their access to the Tree of Life.

If Adam and Eve had already eaten from the tree of life they would still be alive today. It only took eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to know good and evil and it would have only taken eating from the tree of life once to live forever.

It was not the fruit that caused Adam and Eve to lose their Eternal life, but the Act of disobedience of God's command to not eat that brought death to them, for the wages of sin is death. Yet here again they didn't die physically but spiritually. They were now dead, separated from God and hiding from him. There is no Scriptural support for the belief that it would only take one eating of the fruit of the tree of life to live forever. This would be akin to the doctrine of OSAS, not obedience required, but you see the 'Tree of life' was in the middle of the garden with the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Thus in order to maintain their eternal life and eat of the 'Tree of Life', they would have to pass the 'tree of evil' and their faith in God and obedience to His word would be tested. It is the same with us in our quest for eternal life, as we seek God and truth, we are assaulted with 'every wind of doctrine', all designed to lead us into disobedience of the word and will of God. Thus the devil still assaults the believer with, did God really say, if you disobey, you shall surely die?

Your belief that Adam and Eve eat from the tree of life is an assumption with no scriptural foundation and the bible actually says the opposite as you have just read. So your assertion about Adam and Eve eating from the tree of life does not harmonize with anything written anywhere in the bible.

Here I have to disagree with you for you have assumed that Adam never ate of the tree, and that it only takes one eating to receive eternal life, no maintenance required. I appreciate your take on this, but I see it differently. I will not argue with you on perception. As I said before, why not return to the topic at hand and look at the evidence already presented.

God bless, your brother in Christ,

Dennis

[Willow99]

I believe that I got this thread off in the wrong direction by adding to this original question.

So I will re-start it, and bump it, so that the Massorites question at hand may be addressed...

If when we die we go straight to heaven, and when Jesus ascended He took all who were in Paradise with Him to heaven including Moses and all of the other old testament saints. Which means that paradise is now empty and no one else who dies in Christ will be going there from now on. Why as it says in Revelation 20:12 does the Book of Life need to be opened at the Great White Throne Judgment?

I mean if every one who is supposed to go to heaven, including the old testament saints like Moses are already in heaven there is no need to open the Book of Life. Because everyone's name who is written in it has already been judged worthy to go to heaven. There is no need to judge those who have already been judged so the Book of life being opened at the Great White Judgment is useless. Unless of course there are names written in there of people who are in need of Judgment and if there are names written in the Book Of Life who have not been judged who could they be?

in Christ,

Christian

This is something I have studied and don't have an answer for... that every one in Paradise went to heaven when Jesus ascended. How can we know that?

Apostle Paul says the judgments of the righteous and the unjust are one thousand years apart or at least that is my understanding.