Christian Posted January 1, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Share Posted January 1, 2008 Brother Massorite raised this question in another thread, and I felt that it merited a discussion of it's own. I've added to his question with a few of my own on the subject. Blessings to all who might like to contribute to the topic. in Christ, His faithful servant, Christian Here is a question that will cause one to think. " If when we die we go straight to heaven and when Jesus ascended He took all who were in Paradise with Him to heaven including Moses and all of the other old testament saints. Which means that paradise is now empty and no one else who dies in Christ will be going there from now on. Why as it says in Revelation 20:12 does the Book of Life need to be opened at the Great White Throne Judgment? I mean if every one who is supposed to go to heaven, including the old testament saints like Moses are already in heaven there is no need to open the Book of Life. Because everyone's name who is written in it has already been judged worthy to go to heaven. There is no need to judge those who have already been judged so the Book of life being opened at the Great White Judgment is useless. Unless of course there are names written in there of people who are in need of Judgment and if there are names written in the Book Of Life who have not been judged who could they be? (1) Do you believe John 5:28-29 and Revelation 20:12-13 are speaking of the same moment? John 5:28-29 (28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Revelation 20:12-15 (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (2) We are told in 2 Peter 3:10 that upon the Lords return all that we know will be burned up..... 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ....as Matthew 24:29, and Mark 13:25 also imply Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. If this is the case, what "human" life could possibly be left to "live and reign over with Christ for a thousand years." as we are told in Revelation 20:4? And if it is "translated" saints that are being reigned over, there certainly is no "birthing" of a new race since we will not be performing the act of procreation in our new bodies? (3) Beyond the "first" resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20:4, we are never told of anyone described as "alive" afterwards, only all the remaining "dead" assembled before the Judgement throne in Revelation 20:12-15 (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. References to "nations", Gog and Magog, and "number is as the sand of the sea", still are odd, and questionable as to their "human" nature, given the fiery, element melting re-entry of our Lord into this world? Hmmmmmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2008 I am of the school that after the 2nd coming of Christ, Satan will be bound for 1000 years and cast into the bottomless pit, at which time, only those who are Christians will live and reign with Jesus, all others will not live until after Satan is released. After 1000 years, Satan is let go for a little while to gather an army from the four corners of the world to have a battle with Christ. When Satan looses and his army is burned by fire, Satan will be tossed into the lake of fire and brimstone and tormented for ever and ever. After the battle comes the Great White Throne Judgment, where Heaven and Earth will forever flee (destroyed?), for there was found no place for them, and the dead will be judged according to their works and life and whoever is not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire. Then there will be a new heaven and a new earth, at which time the New Jerusalem will descend onto the new earth to be there forever. I see Heaven as everywhere, for God lives in Heaven and he is everywhere, and we are just a very small part of it, a little spot, if I may. How does this fit with what you believe? OneLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraught Posted January 2, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,741 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 28 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/30/1959 Share Posted January 2, 2008 to my way of thinking, it is our bondage to the concept of time that causes the confusion. it is only during our lifetime here on earth that we are bound by time. once our earthly bodies are given up, that's not an issue. i look forward to appearing before God at the same time as you, my great-grandparents, the patriarchs & prophets and the apostles of the 1st century! (and along with the rest of the sheep and the goats) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted January 2, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted January 2, 2008 Well we have gone off into different directions earlier than I thought possible given my query. So I will repost my questions for clarity's sake. I made no inference to any "Rapture" angle, so PLEASE !!!!, let's not drag that dead horse into this thread to beat it any more. There are more than enough "Rapture" threads clogging up Worthy, proponents of this view can easily find one to participate in elsewhere. And so... again I ask. Question #1 Do you believe John 5:28-29 and Revelation 20:12-13 are speaking of the same moment? John 5:28-29 (28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Revelation 20:12-15 (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Question #2 We are told in 2 Peter 3:10 that upon the Lords return all that we know will be burned up..... 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ....as Matthew 24:29, and Mark 13:25 also imply Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Question #2-continued... If this is the case, what "human" life could possibly be left to "live and reign over with Christ for a thousand years." as we are told in Revelation 20:4? And if it is "translated" saints that are being reigned over, there certainly is no "birthing" of a new race since we will not be performing the act of procreation in our new bodies? Question #3 Beyond the "first" resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20:4, we are never told of anyone described as "alive" afterwards, only all the remaining "dead" assembled before the Judgement throne in Revelation 20:12-15 (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Question #3-continued References to "nations", Gog and Magog, and "number is as the sand of the sea" in Revelations 20:9, still are odd, and questionable as to their "human" nature, given the fiery, element melting re-entry of our Lord into this world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted January 2, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted January 2, 2008 to my way of thinking, it is our bondage to the concept of time that causes the confusion. it is only during our lifetime here on earth that we are bound by time. once our earthly bodies are given up, that's not an issue. i look forward to appearing before God at the same time as you, my great-grandparents, the patriarchs & prophets and the apostles of the 1st century! (and along with the rest of the sheep and the goats)This is a beautiful concept my sister in Christ. I too believe that our limited conceptual and perceptual "human" boundaries limit our capacity to fully grasp some of the workings of our Creator, regardless of how "enlightened" or "intelligent" we may be. Our imperfect words quite often struggling desperately to describe utter perfection. This lack of "time keeping" as we understand it would explain so much. Blessings to you, His faithful servant, Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted January 2, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted January 2, 2008 I see Heaven as everywhere, for God lives in Heaven and he is everywhere, and we are just a very small part of it, a little spot, if I may. How does this fit with what you believe? For me, that statement rubs too close to what animism, and an animist might embrace. in Christ, Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted January 2, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2008 Moved from Doctrinal Discussions to Eschatology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted January 2, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted January 2, 2008 Moved from Doctrinal Discussions to EschatologyThank you EricH, I'm sorry for the oversight on my part. Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitty1 Posted January 3, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 160 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/09/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/05/1971 Share Posted January 3, 2008 The way I have tryed to explain this to my children, in the simplist way I think they and I might understand is, that for God, time has no boundries. I believe when I die and open my eyes again, it will be the same time my children and my grandparents open their eyes to stand before the all mightly Lord. I beleive the Lord never told us a day or hour when he will return because it's not about time. I believe TIME is up, OVER, when you DIE. I may be off the mark, and always have lots to learn but that I how I explained it too my girls because I want them to know God isn't in a box, their are no boundries, limitations, restritions. Time is for our benifit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 3, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 3, 2008 I see Heaven as everywhere, for God lives in Heaven and he is everywhere, and we are just a very small part of it, a little spot, if I may. How does this fit with what you believe? For me, that statement rubs too close to what animism, and an animist might embrace. in Christ, Christian I had to look up the word animist before I could answer. I assure you that I do not follow this belief. Maybe I worded it wrong, but God being Omnipresent takes away the boundaries of just being in one particular place, like the Heaven we knew as a child ... up there. If you want to continue this, please PM me so this does not get sidetracked. OneLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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