followerofjesus Posted May 26, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 31 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,013 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2004 2 Corinthians 4:1 through 2 Corinthians 4:18 (KJV) 1Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bluesun Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 (edited) Hallo JohnS (1)ORIGINAL SIN: (a) Yes, we are born from our mothers. Yes, Adam and his wife were the first human beings God created and they've both sinned. This does not however mean that all of mankind is born with original sin. Every human being is responsible for his/her own conduct/behaviour only. Every human being will be held to account on the Day of Judgement for his/her behaviour/conduct only. GOD is the Fairest of all Judges and therefore does not punish us for things we were nor responsible for. (b) According to Islam, humans are born free from sin, pure as it were. Also, every human being is born with a natural inclination to believe in the ONE, TRUE GOD. If a child dies, he/she will go to Heaven (would a 2 month old baby for instance go to hell if it died, according to 'original sin'?). It is the envirionment and satan which/'who' cause man to deviate from the straight path, to sin. (envirnonment: unbelieving parents, friends/ppl sinning, society satan: influencing your ideas ). If a person persists in sinning for a very long time and never repents (i.e. happily sins without concern for what's wrong/right), God will 'cover his/her heart' (i.e. make him/her unreceptive to the truth). I personally feel that a JUST and FAIR GOD wouldn't punish the whole of mankind for the sins perpetrated by one person only. (2)TRINITY (a)Plural Names of GOD Elohim is plural (in Koran, GOD refers to himself as 'We' too). It is plural to signify greatness, not trinity. Kings have used "we/our" to emphasize their 'greatness'. The verb was rightly singular, because GOD is ONE, UNITY, INDIVISIBLE. (B)In "The Dictionary of the Bible," John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 899 bearing the Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, and Imprimi Potest (official Church seals of approval), we read: "the trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. That belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." Edited June 13, 2004 by bluesun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted May 27, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 27, 2004 http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html From these verses from the koran, it sounds to me like the Muslim religion is not one of peace at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted May 27, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 193 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/28/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/20/1965 Share Posted May 27, 2004 (a) Every human being is responsible for his/her own conduct/behaviour only. Every human being will be held to account on the Day of Judgement for his/her behaviour/conduct only. GOD is the Fairest of all Judges and therefore does not punish us for things we were nor responsible for. (b) According to Islam, humans are born free from sin, pure as it were. Also, every human being is born with a natural inclination to believe in the ONE, TRUE GOD. If a child dies, he/she will go to Heaven (would a 2 month old baby for instance go to hell if it died, according to 'original sin'?). It is the envirionment and satan which/'who' cause man to deviate from the straight path, to sin. (envirnonment: unbelieving parents, friends/ppl sinning, society satan: influencing your ideas ). If a person persists in sinning for a very long time and never repents (i.e. happily sins without concern for what's wrong/right), God will 'cover his/her heart' (i.e. make him/her unreceptive to the truth). I personally feel that a JUST and FAIR GOD wouldn't punish the whole of mankind for the sins perpetrated by one person only. And every human being that has walked the earth has sinned...save One, the God-man. Original sin is "doing without God." That phrase covers sin in its beginning in human conconsciousness and its final analysis in the sight of God. You quote from John 17 in your post. That is a wonderful chapter. Read it in its entirety. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. What is a sinner? Everyone who is not one with Jesus as He is one with God. John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 20-21 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. The only hope for a man lies not in giving him an example of how to behave, but in the preaching of Jesus Christ as the Saviour from sin. The heart of every man gets hope when he hears that. We can't be "good enough." I don't want a fair judge. Our sin is a debt we cannot pay. Christianity teaches that when man sinned God opted for forgiveness rather than fairness. He opted for grace and mercy rather than justice. What He offers goes way beyond fair. When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners. Good people don't go to heaven. Forgiven people go to heaven. As we can see, the use of the term "son of God" when describing normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus' people. John 10:32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." The Jews of Jesus' time apparently understood Jesus correctly. Holidays are good! They are just too short. Peace John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bluesun Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Hallo artsylady, many of the verses on the website are given without their proper context, thus making them seem to encourage killings etc. some 'verses' are even totally wrong some examples: (1) website: "Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39" Why is this verse incomplete? 8.39: "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do." (2) website: "Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell." - 33:60 May I ask why the text does in no way correspond to the reference (33:60)? 33.60": "If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist, We shall most certainly set you over them, then they shall not be your neighbors in it but for a little while;" (3) website: Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14 Where is this from? 41:14 does not state this: 41.14: "When their apostles came to them from before them and from behind them, saying, Serve nothing but Allah, they said: If our Lord had pleased He would certainly have sent down angels, so we are surely unbelievers in that with which you are sent." (4) website: Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25 48:25 does not say anything like that. Please read it up for yourself. (5) website: Koran "sharia" punishments: "As for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah". - Surah 5:38 This punishment only applies if those stealing are doing so not because of necessity (i.e. hunger, cold etc.) but because of greed for instance (e.g. stealing gold although you are rich). That is, if anyone was forced to steal because he/she didn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted May 31, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2004 "Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39" Why is this verse incomplete? 8.39: "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do." The second verse you posted doesn't make the first one sound any less brutal. Isn't this what the taliban is doing? (4) website: Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25 48:25 does not say anything like that. Please read it up for yourself. Can you post it or do you know of an online koran? (5) website: Koran "sharia" punishments: "As for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah". - Surah 5:38 This punishment only applies if those stealing are doing so not because of necessity (i.e. hunger, cold etc.) but because of greed for instance (e.g. stealing gold although you are rich). That is, if anyone was forced to steal because he/she didn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted May 31, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2004 What about these verses? Also taken out of context? Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216 (different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you. Doesn't sound like self-defence. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89 Not self-defence at all. Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14 A religion of peace? O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54 You're not even supposed to be friends with us. Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39 Make war on them! That's not self-defense. O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65 Sounds like the Taliban. It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67 Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3 When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5 Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute. Yeah, real peaceful stuff here. Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111 Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation: Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers.... When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4 (different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29 Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9 Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02) It is NO wonder that the terrorists are doing what they are doing. This is scary stuff. It is amazing that you can see this religion as a peaceful one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bluesun Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Dear artsylady, (1) "Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39" 8.39: "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bluesun Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 (edited) Why aren Edited June 13, 2004 by bluesun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted June 13, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Who cares about what the koran says??? Take it to a muslim board, would ya? Please forgive my bluntness. t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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