Devil and Hell

[HeatherEljohari]

Something comes to mind, the devil has shown the contrast from Gods goodness. Just as you look at the world you can see the beauty and vastness from Mother Theresa compared to lets say Hitler. The fact the devil exsists is really as irrelevant as the fact we exsist. Because we obviously do. Why is there evil? I dont know. Did God know Lucifer would fall? I'm sure he did. Is there a reason behind it? Yep, God plans everything together for good for the ones who love him. The way I see it (Im no one special) Lucifer was as much apart of creation as us, he has free will as well. If us humans fell into sin? Why couldnt a angel which THOUGHT he had power? THOUGHT he could have a heads up on God. Reminds me of how alot of humans behave todays societies. But- In the end they got a BIG disappointment coming.

Heatherxoxox

[jenwat3]

I am confused as to why no one who responded brought up that there is no eternal hell, where people burn forever? I am not denying the existance of hell, all I am saying is that the humans who will be sent there will not burn forever in eternal torment. They will simply be gone forever. Souls can die, and be destroyed. Notice that hell is reserved for the devil and his angels. If someone has a reservation somewhere, others may be there before the reservee arrives. But they will need to be gone before he arrives.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

How is it love to "send someone to hell" because they don't agree with you?

I think some common misconceptions about Hell have made their way into our society because so many have misdunderstood the nature of redemption and purpose of God in saving us.

Hell is not a punishment, nor is it a judgment inflicted by God on sinners. Hell is the eternal, "forever" consequence of rejecting Christ. God does not "send" people to Hell. Hell is price sinners pay for rejecting the plan of salvation.

It is the love of God that made a way for man to approach Him. God cannot be faulted for man's rebellious decision to reject Him. The Father, through Jesus, paid the price for man's punishment. The full punishment for sin was laid upon Jesus and God's justice was satisfied.

No one is going to Hell for what they do. If they were, then Jesus' payment on the cross was not sufficient. That is what makes Hell such a tragedy. Jesus paid the complete penalty for sin and the Bible says that the punishment for our peace (reconciliation) with God was laid upon Jesus.

It is not about what you do, but about what you are. For that reason, Hitler and Mother Tereasa without Jesus would stand equally as sinful before God. I am not saying that Mother Tereasa was just as bad as Hitler. Hitler was a very evil man and Mother Tereasa did many good things, but for all her good works, without Christ, Mother Tereasa would still be no closer to God than Hitler was.

Salvation is not about being perfect, or even being "forgiven," but about a living, dynamic, and eternal relationship with God by virtue of our union with Him in Christ. Jesus is the way to the Father, but even more than that Jesus is eternal life and it is the life of Christ living through us that makes that relationship possible. It is the love of Christ, loving through us that enables us to love God in the manner that is acceptable to Him.

Without eternal life, without Jesus living in us, transforming us into a New Creation, the only thing that awaits us is an eternity separated from God,and believe me, that is not something you want.

[Neeva Candida]

I am concerned by the constant use of the phrase "separation from God" to describe Hell with hardly any mention of the torturous punishment that goes along with it. One person has even suggested that "humans who will be sent there will not burn forever in eternal torment. They will simply be gone forever".

This is not what the Bible teaches. It is very important to understand what the Bible says about Hell. It should motivate the Saved into fervent action to seek out and witness to the Lost.

The word "hell" doesn't actually appear in the original text. Three words are commonly translated as "hell" in our modern Bibles. They are "Gehenna", "Hades" and "Sheol". Gehenna is a place of punishment. Hades is where the dead live and Sheol is the grave.

The question was asked what if neither Hitler nor Mother Teresa were saved. Would they both receive the same punishment? Well, I can't answer that question. However, I do have an observation. Hitler should hope that the "annihilationist" is correct. In that scenario he and Mother Teresa simply cease to exist. His punishment is to simply stop being a conscious being. In fact, he doesn't even know that he is being punished. Not a bad deal actually if you're a mass murderer.

However, there are scriptures that paint a different picture of Hell.

Luke 16: 19-31 tells us about a rich man that went to Hell. He was conscious, felt pain, thirst and felt remorse. The KJV says that he was tormented by flame. These were Jesus' words.

In Mark 9: 43-48 Jesus tells us that it would be better to maim ourselves (remove hand, foot or eye) then to be cast into Hell whole where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.

Here are some other references regarding the fate of the unsaved:

"Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)

"Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)

"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)

"Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)

"Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)

"Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

"Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."

I am not suggesting that we hit the unsaved over the head with a baseball bat of "fire and brimstone". However, it should be a factor in how the Saved conduct themselves in the area of evangelism.

~Neeva

[jehovah Nissi]

QUOTE

How is it love to "send someone to hell" because they don't agree with you?

I think some common misconceptions about Hell have made their way into our society because so many have misdunderstood the nature of redemption and purpose of God in saving us.

Hell is not a punishment, nor is it a judgment inflicted by God on sinners. Hell is the eternal, "forever" consequence of rejecting Christ. God does not "send" people to Hell. Hell is price sinners pay for rejecting the plan of salvation.

It is the love of God that made a way for man to approach Him. God cannot be faulted for man's rebellious decision to reject Him. The Father, through Jesus, paid the price for man's punishment. The full punishment for sin was laid upon Jesus and God's justice was satisfied.

No one is going to Hell for what they do. If they were, then Jesus' payment on the cross was not sufficient. That is what makes Hell such a tragedy. Jesus paid the complete penalty for sin and the Bible says that the punishment for our peace (reconciliation) with God was laid upon Jesus.

It is not about what you do, but about what you are. For that reason, Hitler and Mother Tereasa without Jesus would stand equally as sinful before God. I am not saying that Mother Tereasa was just as bad as Hitler. Hitler was a very evil man and Mother Tereasa did many good things, but for all her good works, without Christ, Mother Tereasa would still be no closer to God than Hitler was.

Salvation is not about being perfect, or even being "forgiven," but about a living, dynamic, and eternal relationship with God by virtue of our union with Him in Christ. Jesus is the way to the Father, but even more than that Jesus is eternal life and it is the life of Christ living through us that makes that relationship possible. It is the love of Christ, loving through us that enables us to love God in the manner that is acceptable to Him.

Without eternal life, without Jesus living in us, transforming us into a New Creation, the only thing that awaits us is an eternity separated from God,and believe me, that is not something you want.

good post shiloh!

[jenwat3]

I am concerned by the constant use of the phrase "separation from God" to describe Hell with hardly any mention of the torturous punishment that goes along with it. One person has even suggested that "humans who will be sent there will not burn forever in eternal torment. They will simply be gone forever".

This is not what the Bible teaches. It is very important to understand what the Bible says about Hell. It should motivate the Saved into fervent action to seek out and witness to the Lost.

The word "hell" doesn't actually appear in the original text. Three words are commonly translated as "hell" in our modern Bibles. They are "Gehenna", "Hades" and "Sheol". Gehenna is a place of punishment. Hades is where the dead live and Sheol is the grave.

The question was asked what if neither Hitler nor Mother Teresa were saved. Would they both receive the same punishment? Well, I can't answer that question. However, I do have an observation. Hitler should hope that the "annihilationist" is correct. In that scenario he and Mother Teresa simply cease to exist. His punishment is to simply stop being a conscious being. In fact, he doesn't even know that he is being punished. Not a bad deal actually if you're a mass murderer.

However, there are scriptures that paint a different picture of Hell.

Luke 16: 19-31 tells us about a rich man that went to Hell. He was conscious, felt pain, thirst and felt remorse. The KJV says that he was tormented by flame. These were Jesus' words.

In Mark 9: 43-48 Jesus tells us that it would be better to maim ourselves (remove hand, foot or eye) then to be cast into Hell whole where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.

Here are some other references regarding the fate of the unsaved:

"Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)

"Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)

"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)

"Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)

"Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)

"Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

"Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."

I am not suggesting that we hit the unsaved over the head with a baseball bat of "fire and brimstone". However, it should be a factor in how the Saved conduct themselves in the area of evangelism.

~Neeva

I am the one who said people will be gone forever. All the verse you gave do not say "everlasting punishing". They say everlasting punishMENT. The punishment will be everlasting. All who are thrown in the lake of fire will burn up and be gone forever. The everlasting punishment is that they will have no chance for anothre resurrection. And an unquenchable fire is one that cannot be put out. It does not mean that it will burn forever. It will eventually go out when there is nothing left to burn. Hades, in Greek, means the same as Sheol. It means the grave, not someplace where the dead are still alive or are capable of thought or feeling. The final destiny of the sinner? "The soul that sins shall DIE". The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal punishing in hell.

[~~ angelique ~~]

Hades, in Greek, means the same as Sheol. It means the grave, not someplace where the dead are still alive or are capable of thought or feeling. The final destiny of the sinner? "The soul that sins shall DIE". The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal punishing in hell.

Wait... I am seriously confused. What is the difference between hell and sheol?

What about pergatory?

[Neeva Candida]

I am the one who said people will be gone forever. All the verse you gave do not say "everlasting punishing". They say everlasting punishMENT. The punishment will be everlasting. All who are thrown in the lake of fire will burn up and be gone forever. The everlasting punishment is that they will have no chance for anothre resurrection. And an unquenchable fire is one that cannot be put out. It does not mean that it will burn forever. It will eventually go out when there is nothing left to burn. Hades, in Greek, means the same as Sheol. It means the grave, not someplace where the dead are still alive or are capable of thought or feeling. The final destiny of the sinner? "The soul that sins shall DIE". The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal punishing in hell.

Hi jenwat3,

I wish to start by saying that I do not seek to attack you personally in any way.

I do not post very much by some standards. That is because my focus and therefore my posts lean more toward evangelism than anything else. Unfortunately, in today's modern church you don't see much of that anymore. What is being done is usually unscriptural and producing "counterfeit Christians" whose later condition is worse than their first.

I believe that the issue of Hell is very relevant to evangelism. I believe that you have been misled about what the Bible says about Hell and therefore are perpetuating that misinformation. This is understandable. Many people have been taught similar concepts.

It is the misinformation that I take issue with.

With many modern churches focusing on a ministry of "love, peace and joy" rather than "repentance" things are already in a serious state of affairs. Teaching that Hell is not really such a big deal only serves to worsen that situation. Some borderline unbelievers begin weighing the options of living any way they want because in the end they simply cease to exist while truly Saved individuals shy away from witnessing because it really doesn't matter, the consequences simply aren't that bad.

It also diminishes the sacrifice that God made. He sent his Son to die on the cross for all of our sins. Well, that would have been a bit of an over reaction if the final result of not accepting that gift is simply to cease to exist. Why then did He make such an enormous sacrifice? So that some could have salvation? Well, those that reject that salvation aren't really going to care very much when they are no longer sentient. I believe His purpose for making this sacrifice goes further than that. I believe it is because the alternative is much worse than annihilation. I believe that the scriptures teach us this.

Quenched means to "put out" or "put and end to". You seem to agree with that much. Therefore when the Bible tells us that this fire will not be quenched I would assume that you would also agree that it means it "cannot be put out". If it cannot be put out then we are not really left with any scenario in which it goes out for any reason. If this is the case then what about those unsaved souls? They burn up? Cease to exist?

Everlasting simply means to "last forever". Several of the scriptures that I quoted refer to this punishment as everlasting. The punishment is not something separate from the person being punished. When I was young and told to stand in the corner of the classroom I knew that I was being punished. After a time when I was allowed to return to my seat I knew that the punishment was over. There was not an invisible activity of punishment continuing in that particular corner of the classroom. "Everlasting punishment" tells us therefore that it goes on forever and for it to be a punishment someone has to experience it. The scriptures quite clearly tell us that the unsaved will be among those experiencing this punishment.

Hades actually means something quite different than the grave. However, your exception to my post seems to focus mostly on the suggestion of an everlasting punishment for the unsaved. So, I don't really think that spending time on that particular topic in this thread would be very valuable.

My concern is that if we diminish or allow to be diminished what the Bible teaches us about Hell then we make it easer for souls to slip into that place. Trying to convert sinners to Christ by scaring them with Hell is not very effective. Spurring the Saved on to greater efforts at witnessing to the unsaved is!

~Neeva

[jenwat3]

I am the one who said people will be gone forever. All the verse you gave do not say "everlasting punishing". They say everlasting punishMENT. The punishment will be everlasting. All who are thrown in the lake of fire will burn up and be gone forever. The everlasting punishment is that they will have no chance for anothre resurrection. And an unquenchable fire is one that cannot be put out. It does not mean that it will burn forever. It will eventually go out when there is nothing left to burn. Hades, in Greek, means the same as Sheol. It means the grave, not someplace where the dead are still alive or are capable of thought or feeling. The final destiny of the sinner? "The soul that sins shall DIE". The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal punishing in hell.

Hi jenwat3,

I wish to start by saying that I do not seek to attack you personally in any way.

I do not post very much by some standards. That is because my focus and therefore my posts lean more toward evangelism than anything else. Unfortunately, in today's modern church you don't see much of that anymore. What is being done is usually unscriptural and producing "counterfeit Christians" whose later condition is worse than their first.

I believe that the issue of Hell is very relevant to evangelism. I believe that you have been misled about what the Bible says about Hell and therefore are perpetuating that misinformation. This is understandable. Many people have been taught similar concepts.

It is the misinformation that I take issue with.

With many modern churches focusing on a ministry of "love, peace and joy" rather than "repentance" things are already in a serious state of affairs. Teaching that Hell is not really such a big deal only serves to worsen that situation. Some borderline unbelievers begin weighing the options of living any way they want because in the end they simply cease to exist while truly Saved individuals shy away from witnessing because it really doesn't matter, the consequences simply aren't that bad.

It also diminishes the sacrifice that God made. He sent his Son to die on the cross for all of our sins. Well, that would have been a bit of an over reaction if the final result of not accepting that gift is simply to cease to exist. Why then did He make such an enormous sacrifice? So that some could have salvation? Well, those that reject that salvation aren't really going to care very much when they are no longer sentient. I believe His purpose for making this sacrifice goes further than that. I believe it is because the alternative is much worse than annihilation. I believe that the scriptures teach us this.

Quenched means to "put out" or "put and end to". You seem to agree with that much. Therefore when the Bible tells us that this fire will not be quenched I would assume that you would also agree that it means it "cannot be put out". If it cannot be put out then we are not really left with any scenario in which it goes out for any reason. If this is the case then what about those unsaved souls? They burn up? Cease to exist?

Everlasting simply means to "last forever". Several of the scriptures that I quoted refer to this punishment as everlasting. The punishment is not something separate from the person being punished. When I was young and told to stand in the corner of the classroom I knew that I was being punished. After a time when I was allowed to return to my seat I knew that the punishment was over. There was not an invisible activity of punishment continuing in that particular corner of the classroom. "Everlasting punishment" tells us therefore that it goes on forever and for it to be a punishment someone has to experience it. The scriptures quite clearly tell us that the unsaved will be among those experiencing this punishment.

Hades actually means something quite different than the grave. However, your exception to my post seems to focus mostly on the suggestion of an everlasting punishment for the unsaved. So, I don't really think that spending time on that particular topic in this thread would be very valuable.

My concern is that if we diminish or allow to be diminished what the Bible teaches us about Hell then we make it easer for souls to slip into that place. Trying to convert sinners to Christ by scaring them with Hell is not very effective. Spurring the Saved on to greater efforts at witnessing to the unsaved is!

~Neeva

Neeva, first I would like to say that I appreciate your tone when discussing this. I have had debates like this before where others weren't half as understanding as you. To cut to the chase, where in scripture does it say "the wicked will burn forever"? It plainly states "the wages of sin is death", not eternal burning. To quote John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life". Note how the term PERISH here is contrasted with everlasting life? If people actually burned forever, they would still have eternal life! But they PERISH.

[~~ angelique ~~]

I am the one who said people will be gone forever. All the verse you gave do not say "everlasting punishing". They say everlasting punishMENT. The punishment will be everlasting. All who are thrown in the lake of fire will burn up and be gone forever. The everlasting punishment is that they will have no chance for anothre resurrection. And an unquenchable fire is one that cannot be put out. It does not mean that it will burn forever. It will eventually go out when there is nothing left to burn. Hades, in Greek, means the same as Sheol. It means the grave, not someplace where the dead are still alive or are capable of thought or feeling. The final destiny of the sinner? "The soul that sins shall DIE". The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal punishing in hell.

Hi jenwat3,

I wish to start by saying that I do not seek to attack you personally in any way.

I do not post very much by some standards. That is because my focus and therefore my posts lean more toward evangelism than anything else. Unfortunately, in today's modern church you don't see much of that anymore. What is being done is usually unscriptural and producing "counterfeit Christians" whose later condition is worse than their first.

I believe that the issue of Hell is very relevant to evangelism. I believe that you have been misled about what the Bible says about Hell and therefore are perpetuating that misinformation. This is understandable. Many people have been taught similar concepts.

It is the misinformation that I take issue with.

With many modern churches focusing on a ministry of "love, peace and joy" rather than "repentance" things are already in a serious state of affairs. Teaching that Hell is not really such a big deal only serves to worsen that situation. Some borderline unbelievers begin weighing the options of living any way they want because in the end they simply cease to exist while truly Saved individuals shy away from witnessing because it really doesn't matter, the consequences simply aren't that bad.

It also diminishes the sacrifice that God made. He sent his Son to die on the cross for all of our sins. Well, that would have been a bit of an over reaction if the final result of not accepting that gift is simply to cease to exist. Why then did He make such an enormous sacrifice? So that some could have salvation? Well, those that reject that salvation aren't really going to care very much when they are no longer sentient. I believe His purpose for making this sacrifice goes further than that. I believe it is because the alternative is much worse than annihilation. I believe that the scriptures teach us this.

Quenched means to "put out" or "put and end to". You seem to agree with that much. Therefore when the Bible tells us that this fire will not be quenched I would assume that you would also agree that it means it "cannot be put out". If it cannot be put out then we are not really left with any scenario in which it goes out for any reason. If this is the case then what about those unsaved souls? They burn up? Cease to exist?

Everlasting simply means to "last forever". Several of the scriptures that I quoted refer to this punishment as everlasting. The punishment is not something separate from the person being punished. When I was young and told to stand in the corner of the classroom I knew that I was being punished. After a time when I was allowed to return to my seat I knew that the punishment was over. There was not an invisible activity of punishment continuing in that particular corner of the classroom. "Everlasting punishment" tells us therefore that it goes on forever and for it to be a punishment someone has to experience it. The scriptures quite clearly tell us that the unsaved will be among those experiencing this punishment.

Hades actually means something quite different than the grave. However, your exception to my post seems to focus mostly on the suggestion of an everlasting punishment for the unsaved. So, I don't really think that spending time on that particular topic in this thread would be very valuable.

My concern is that if we diminish or allow to be diminished what the Bible teaches us about Hell then we make it easer for souls to slip into that place. Trying to convert sinners to Christ by scaring them with Hell is not very effective. Spurring the Saved on to greater efforts at witnessing to the unsaved is!

~Neeva

Neeva, first I would like to say that I appreciate your tone when discussing this. I have had debates like this before where others weren't half as understanding as you. To cut to the chase, where in scripture does it say "the wicked will burn forever"? It plainly states "the wages of sin is death", not eternal burning. To quote John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life". Note how the term PERISH here is contrasted with everlasting life? If people actually burned forever, they would still have eternal life! But they PERISH.

you guys are talking above me... I am even more confused