Angelic Beings

[Catsmeow]

Please forgive my ineptitude but I am confused by a couple of verses in Revelations.

First the verses:

Revelation 12

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

and ....

Revelation 19:10 -

And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Both of these verses seem to indicate they come from an angelic being. It appears as an angelic persona speaking to Saint John and revealing various things. However, this being continually refers to the saints of God as "brethren".

Are these angels addressing John and if so, why do they refer to the saints as "brethren"?

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Catsmeow,

First the verses:

Revelation 12

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

and ....

Revelation 19:10 -

And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Both of these verses seem to indicate they come from an angelic being. It appears as an angelic persona speaking to Saint John and revealing various things. However, this being continually refers to the saints of God as "brethren".

Are these angels addressing John and if so, why do they refer to the saints as "brethren"?

In 12:10, I do not believe the "loud voice" refers to an angelic being, but Jesus Himself. If you look elsewhere throughout Revelation, you may find that to be consistent. The English word "loud" or "great" is the Greek word "megas". Here is the first mention of the word "voice":

Revelation 1:10-11 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

In 19:10 here is the Greek word for "fellowservant":

4889 sundoulos {soon'-doo-los}

from 4862 and 1401; TDNT - 2:261,182; n m

AV - fellowservant 10; 10

1) a fellow servant, one who serves the same master with another

1a) the associate of a servant (or slave)

1b) one who with others serves (ministers to) a king

1c) a colleague of one who is Christ's servant in publishing

the gospel

1d) one who with others acknowledges the same Lord, Jesus, and

obeys his commands

1e) one who with others is subject to the same divine

authority in the Messianic economy

1e1) of angels as the fellow servants of Christians

What the verse is saying is that John along with John's brethren, are "fellow servants" of Jesus Christ with the angels. Not that we are brethren of angels.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Ovedya]

Rev. 12:10 The accuser of the bretherin is the devil, who accused Job (Job 1) and Joshua (Zech. 3:1-2) before God. This one is now accusing the saints of God before the throne of God day and night.

Interestingly enough, the Zech. 3:1 reference also applies to your question concerning Rev. 19:10.

In the Old Testament the Lord Jesus is often referred to as the Angel of Jehovah. Therefore, the One speaking to John here is none other than the Lord Jesus. Take a look at Revelation 22:9. Surely this is the same Angel speaking to John. But in this passage He reveals Himself as the Lord Jesus! Therefore, John said, "Come quickly Lord Jesus!" (Rev. 22:20)

[Catsmeow]

Do you believe that Jesus might also be " Melchizedek"?

Ref:

Hebrew 7:11

Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

Is "Melchizedek" - the first mention of a high priest that I am aware of, (Genesis; Abraham gives him one tenth of his flocks)...is this a manifestation of the Lord Jesus Christ also?

I have always wondered...

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Catsmeow,

Is "Melchizedek" - the first mention of a high priest that I am aware of, (Genesis; Abraham gives him one tenth of his flocks)...is this a manifestation of the Lord Jesus Christ also?

Let's examine these verses;

John 1:1-15 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Before Jesus' incarnation, how does it say that he appeared to mankind? When was the "Word made flesh"?

I'll be fully honest with you, I do believe God manifested Himself "through the Son" EVERY TIME God spoke, or appeared in any tangible way throughout all of History. I see the Son in the Burning Bush, I see the Son in the Smoke by day and the Fire by night, I see the Son as the one who passed by in front of (either David or Moses) as they were hid in a cave.

Melchizedek was a physical person who existed for some period of time ruling over Salem as their High Priest. The description of Him does not even make one think that he could have been "God in the Flesh".

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest Calamity]

Godman:

In the Old Testament the Lord Jesus is often referred to as the Angel of Jehovah. Therefore, the One speaking to John here is none other than the Lord Jesus. Take a look at Revelation 22:9. Surely this is the same Angel speaking to John. But in this passage He reveals Himself as the Lord Jesus! Therefore, John said, "Come quickly Lord Jesus!" (Rev. 22:20)

This reminds me. On another board (thank goodness ), there was someone posting something, and in it, he said that there would be a "time when we would be changed into angels". I called him on this, and he not only didn't reply, he deleted the entire thread, LOL. I'm surprised, though that he didn't use what God-man said, or something similar to back up his statement, but he didn't. Heb. 1 makes it pretty clear that Jesus isn't an angel now, and also, somewhere, it says that whatever we will be, we will be like Him. So, we won't be angels either.

Heb. 1

[4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

[6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

[Catsmeow]

Okay but I get really confused when reading Revelations ...between who's talking to who...

Sometimes angels are speaking and sometimes a "voice" is speaking..and I hate to say it but I almost run from Revelations because I get so confused about who's who and what all the symbolism means...it's frustrating to me.

I always figured it was an angel talking to John...

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Catsmeow,

You are not alone in finding Revelation a bit confusing. I have been studying it for years and still I learn something new all the time about it. I have most of the basics down, but a lot remains a mystery and it seems no one can satisfactorily answer ALL the questions posed by that book. However, we are told we would be blessed if we truly hear and understand it.

Knowing that, I also know that ALL the rest of the scriptures are full of bits of information here and there which help to interpret the book. The better one gets to know the REST of the books of the Bible, the better equipped they are to understand Revelation.

The Lord told me once that in order to understand Revelation, I must FIRST get to know Jesus. Now that is something VERY worth while doing, and I am honestly more enamored of Him than I am of prophecy, although sometimes I don't show it as well.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Catsmeow]

Don't feel bad, bruh- I mean "Dad" Ernie...sorry. I'm the same way. I think we all let flesh get in the way of what Jesus really wants us to be and do.

[Guest Angel888]

Greetings Catsmeow,

Is "Melchizedek" - the first mention of a high priest that I am aware of, (Genesis; Abraham gives him one tenth of his flocks)...is this a manifestation of the Lord Jesus Christ also?

Let's examine these verses;

John 1:1-15 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Before Jesus' incarnation, how does it say that he appeared to mankind? When was the "Word made flesh"?

I believe that Jesus was god manifested in the flesh

Dad says "Melchizedek was a physical person who existed for some period of time ruling over Salem as their High Priest. The description of Him does not even make one think that he could have been "God in the Flesh"".

But

Dear Dad Ernie You are in Error!

read Hebrews 7:3

I might remind you that St Paul, refers to Melchisadec,

as being a Person; "who was without father, without mother, without descent,

without beginning of days nor end of life",

How can He be human?

He cannot.

or even an Angel? since he is without beginning of Days or end of life,

this person was never created, He has always been and allways will Be.

Then who can He Be?

That person must be All-mighty Living God in the Flesh.

Now which part of God must He Be? Father, Son Or Holy Spirit?

The holy Spirit you cannoy see,

The Father?

No man has seen the Father, so therefore He must be none other than

The Lord Jesus himself God the Son, making an O.t. theophanic appearance

God All-mighty takes up centre stage and takes a tenth of the tithes from Abraham, Amaising!

Melchisadeck therefore cannot be a man. Angel888