Marnie Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 811 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,338 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/06/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2008 If God hated sinners, then He wold not have sent His Son to die for sinners. I see this scripture more as a blanket statement pertaining to the sin that is in the heart of the sinner, as if binding them as one. Are we our sins or are our sins the result of our decisions? I think if you take Scripture literally (or even Calvin, for that matter), we are sin. Paul wrote of his "body of sin." To suggest that sin is merely a bad decision lessens the value of the Atonement; man doesn't need a Savior, just more knowledge to make a correct decision. Maybe I should of elaborated a bit more. Sin is the result of the influence of our flesh, known as our sinful nature. We have to remember that Christ died for sinners, not sin. Sin, in and of itself, can not be redeemed nor forgiven as itself, but sinners are redeemed and forgiven of their sins. I separate the two, for when we accept Christ we are believing in Him for salvation, where our sins can not accept His work on the cross. The question itself requires deep division of His words, way beyond the milk. I think I would take issue with your first sentence. Man is born in sin, we take the characteristics of our earthly father, Adam. In Romans 5:12, we read that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I think that Christ died for sin and sins: (Hebrews 10:1-18) "For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, not the image itself of the things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, perfect those who draw near. Otherwise would they not have ceased to be offered, because those worshipping, having once been purified, would have no longer had the consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a bringing to mind of sins year by year; For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, coming into the world, He says, a"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You did not delight. Then I said, Behold, I have come (in the roll of the book it is written concerning Me) to do Your will, O God.'' Saying above, "Sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You did not desire nor delight in'' (which are offered according to the law), He then has said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will.'' He takes away the first that He may establish the second, By which will we have been sanctified through the coffering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." And every priest stands daily, ministering and offering often the same sacrifices, which can never remove sins; But this One, having offered one sacrifice for sins, sat down forever on the right hand of God, Henceforth waiting until His enemies are made the footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us, for after having said, "This is the covenant which I will covenant with them after those days, says the Lord: I will impart My laws upon their hearts, and upon their mind I will inscribe them,'' He then says, "And their sins and their lawlessnesses I shall by no means remember anymore.'' Now where forgiveness of these is, there is no longer an offering for sin." The important key, I think, is in our experience. In our very nature we have sin, which remains, and will remain, until the resurrection. On the other hand, Christ has already shed his blood for the remission of sins and for the eradication of sin. When we were regenerated we received the very resurrected Christ - the one who conquered sin and death, into our spirits. We received Him as a "seed" in our human spirit which will eventually grow and mature in the divine life until we are completely transformed in resurrection. It is by the conquering might of Christ's death and resurrection that sin will be completely annihilated in our being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2008 The views I have expressed here are spontaneous and a process. I reserve the right to back up, edit, or change as I study and consider. So please read them with carefulness they are intended. I am right there in the process with you, bro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraught Posted March 18, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,741 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 28 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/30/1959 Share Posted March 18, 2008 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 KJV We have all heard and probably all said, "God hates the sin and loves the sinner". Well, what do we do with this verse? we remember that our God equally loves justice. without justice, there is no possibility for love, anyway. God cannot act unjustly. period. God is Love and God is justice. to Him belongs the definition of the word; therefore, he will execute it perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresyhunter Posted March 18, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 170 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2008 Ovedya, Isn't the law of God written upon the hearts of all men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 18, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Ovedya, Isn't the law of God written upon the hearts of all men? No. Just the believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresyhunter Posted March 18, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 170 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2008 Ovedya, Isn't the law of God written upon the hearts of all men? No. Just the believers. Doesn't Paul say that none are without excuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deut31:12 Posted March 18, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 232 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/05/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2008 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 KJV We have all heard and probably all said, "God hates the sin and loves the sinner". Well, what do we do with this verse? There are many people who reject the notion of God and all that he stands for with the life that he requires us to live. They are called, "lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God". Even though God wills all man to repentance we can still see that by scripture that he dislikes those who choose sin over Christianity. From the beginning of time until today we see that God displays his anger towards the unrighteous. He killed 23,000 in one day for fornication and 14,000 for murmuring. In Revelation he killed 1/3 part of the earth to cause men to repent, but they did not. Christians were sinners at one time, but God sees the heart and knows who will repent and who will not. Those who don't stand a good chance at his wrath. This is the type of hate they are speaking of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ddavid from NC Posted March 18, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 196 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,343 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted March 18, 2008 Perhaps another thread but viable point to this discussion is one that they wrestle with in all seminaries in their ethics training. "Is evil independent of God totally? Is righteousness independent of God? Or is something righteous because God says it is and is something evil simply because says that it is? Now I know this is like the philosophical question about the tree falling in the woods that nobody saw or heard. But, I believe this is real question. If God hating seems unrighteous, that means we are admitting to a standard independent of God. Which we find no Biblical proof of at all. But, see hints of it being truth in these apparent contradictions. Something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 KJV We have all heard and probably all said, "God hates the sin and loves the sinner". Well, what do we do with this verse? God's hate is the carnal human "hate" that we as humans possess. The problem is when we view such an emotion through the carnal lense of humanities own expression of that emotion/attribute. God loves and hates at the same time, and He does both in perfectly and rightesously. He operates on a level that we cannot relate to, and have no real point of reference to compare it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts