Does God hate sinners

[tsth]

This is true. "Hate" leaves no room for repentance, whereas "Love" is always hopeful for it.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest shiloh357]

God's hate is the carnal human "hate" that we as humans possess.

Shiloh, I can only assume that you meant to say that God's hate is not the carnal human hate that we as humans possess.

Good post, though.

Oops, yeah, that is what I meant!

[BurnForChrist]

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 KJV

We have all heard and probably all said, "God hates the sin and loves the sinner". Well, what do we do with this verse?

We accept exactly what the verse is saying. Along with:

Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

It is true and can be uncomfortable. Although we know John 3:16, we can also say "GOD hates the sin and the one who loves his sin." Some go as far as say that because GOD is love He cannot hate. But the problem is its because GOD IS love that He must hate. He loves righteousness therefore hates wickedness. I love babies therefore I hate abortion. GOD is a holy GOD and hates that which is evil. Even hating "workers of iniquity."

Burn

[Reuben Hick]

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 KJV

We have all heard and probably all said, "God hates the sin and loves the sinner". Well, what do we do with this verse?

The passage means what it says.

Those who reject God's Sovereignty in the heart of man (aka Free Will Apologists), can't handle this passage, and for the many years that I have asked them their view on it, without exception they deny the passage of its central meaning and gratuitously divert the hatred on to something other than what the passage clearly teaches. Sort of the in same mold as hoplophobes project sin and evil on the firearm, banning it rather than dealing with the perp who misuses the otherwise inanimate, unconscious metal object, or blaming the alcohol and not the driver in a DUI death.

You might as well ask them why God hated Esau. (Ro 9:13) Without reading any of the other posts I can pretty much say that "hatred" will devolve into something that is not hatred. In fact, they will completely turn around the passage and say that God really loves them. I honestly don't know how folks can live with that kind of cognitive dissonance unless they just flat out reject those difficult passages in Scripture. And when I mean "difficult" I am talking about those many passages that argue against their bogus Free Will soteriology.

The usual rhetoric occasionally calls for the red herring approach, that is, someone will point out that this is an imprecatory Psalm, as if there is something disqualifying and inherently wrong about praying for the demise of one's enemy. They might even go as far to say that David was blaspheming by projecting David's personal contempt for sinners on to God (who allegedly loves all men). Then comes the deflection, so while you are thinking about the nature of the Psalm you are then fed a line that says that either hate doesn't mean hate, or it isn't the doer (as the passage clearly says), but it is the sin (which the passage doesn't say). In either case, you are made to feel guilty about having a low view of God's enemies, then while you are told that David was just having a bad day, you get the lie, from that point, anything goes.

If one explores the core of Free Will Theology, there is no divine hate, and logically there is no divine love. The Free Will Enthusiast will deconstruct "love" so much that it is completely devoid of all meaning. They will say that God's love for the Saint is the same as His love for the Sinner. Never mind the Prodigal son's father did not coming running out of the house and demonstrating love towards anybody who wandered up to the residence. Never mind Hebrews that teaches that God chastens whom He loves. Erase from your mind the passages in Romans that teach that God works things out for those who love Him. Forget all of the passages that convey a pattern of active love towards those who God considers His sheep/children. Certainly don't ask why God's love is poured out on His Elect or why that is even taught in Scripture, for afterall, if there is no distinction between the love God has for His own, and the alleged "love" God has for the reprobate, then why is it constantly represented in Scriptures? The Free Will Enthusiast doesn't want you to ask those questions. The anthropocentric warm fuzzies surrounding an empty "love" on all mankind trumps orthodox theology and God's revealed character.

Remember, God allegedly loves people straight into eternal destruction and damnation. We are told that God poured out His love for the Sodomites when he rained down fire from the heavens without warning. We are supposed to believe that wiping out billions of people during the Flood was a divine act of exhibited love for the antediluvians. And surely God must love the generations of people who lived and died never having heard the Gospel. Why God even is supposed to love those who He deliberately blinds and keeps in darkness so that they will not believe. (John 12:40). This so-called "love" is supposed to be indistinguishable from the love God has for His Elect.

Under Free Will Theology, where everyone is supposed to have an equal shot at setting themselves straight and making the correct choice, God must love everyone head-for-head, and that is why the word 'kosmos', or 'world' as we read in John 3:16, cannot mean 'those from every nation' (which is consistent with all of Scripture) but must mean 'everyone head for head' (which conflicts with many passages, particularly Ps 5:5).

The Free Will Enthusiast has two options:

1) Deny or deconstruct the Scriptures that conflict with the anthropocentric Pelagian doctrines,

2) Talk about paradoxes, conflicting visions - as if contradiction is a good and noble thing.

[Ovedya]

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 KJV

We have all heard and probably all said, "God hates the sin and loves the sinner". Well, what do we do with this verse?

The passage means what it says.

Those who reject God's Sovereignty in the heart of man (aka Free Will Apologists), can't handle this passage, and for the many years that I have asked them their view on it, without exception they deny the passage of its central meaning and gratuitously divert the hatred on to something other than what the passage clearly teaches. Sort of the in same mold as hoplophobes project sin and evil on the firearm, banning it rather than dealing with the perp who misuses the otherwise inanimate, unconscious metal object, or blaming the alcohol and not the driver in a DUI death.

You might as well ask them why God hated Esau. (Ro 9:13) Without reading any of the other posts I can pretty much say that "hatred" will devolve into something that is not hatred. In fact, they will completely turn around the passage and say that God really loves them. I honestly don't know how folks can live with that kind of cognitive dissonance unless they just flat out reject those difficult passages in Scripture. And when I mean "difficult" I am talking about those many passages that argue against their bogus Free Will soteriology.

The usual rhetoric occasionally calls for the red herring approach, that is, someone will point out that this is an imprecatory Psalm, as if there is something disqualifying and inherently wrong about praying for the demise of one's enemy. They might even go as far to say that David was blaspheming by projecting David's personal contempt for sinners on to God (who allegedly loves all men). Then comes the deflection, so while you are thinking about the nature of the Psalm you are then fed a line that says that either hate doesn't mean hate, or it isn't the doer (as the passage clearly says), but it is the sin (which the passage doesn't say). In either case, you are made to feel guilty about having a low view of God's enemies, then while you are told that David was just having a bad day, you get the lie, from that point, anything goes.

If one explores the core of Free Will Theology, there is no divine hate, and logically there is no divine love. The Free Will Enthusiast will deconstruct "love" so much that it is completely devoid of all meaning. They will say that God's love for the Saint is the same as His love for the Sinner. Never mind the Prodigal son's father did not coming running out of the house and demonstrating love towards anybody who wandered up to the residence. Never mind Hebrews that teaches that God chastens whom He loves. Erase from your mind the passages in Romans that teach that God works things out for those who love Him. Forget all of the passages that convey a pattern of active love towards those who God considers His sheep/children. Certainly don't ask why God's love is poured out on His Elect or why that is even taught in Scripture, for afterall, if there is no distinction between the love God has for His own, and the alleged "love" God has for the reprobate, then why is it constantly represented in Scriptures? The Free Will Enthusiast doesn't want you to ask those questions. The anthropocentric warm fuzzies surrounding an empty "love" on all mankind trumps orthodox theology and God's revealed character.

Remember, God allegedly loves people straight into eternal destruction and damnation. We are told that God poured out His love for the Sodomites when he rained down fire from the heavens without warning. We are supposed to believe that wiping out billions of people during the Flood was a divine act of exhibited love for the antediluvians. And surely God must love the generations of people who lived and died never having heard the Gospel. Why God even is supposed to love those who He deliberately blinds and keeps in darkness so that they will not believe. (John 12:40). This so-called "love" is supposed to be indistinguishable from the love God has for His Elect.

Under Free Will Theology, where everyone is supposed to have an equal shot at setting themselves straight and making the correct choice, God must love everyone head-for-head, and that is why the word 'kosmos', or 'world' as we read in John 3:16, cannot mean 'those from every nation' (which is consistent with all of Scripture) but must mean 'everyone head for head' (which conflicts with many passages, particularly Ps 5:5).

The Free Will Enthusiast has two options:

1) Deny or deconstruct the Scriptures that conflict with the anthropocentric Pelagian doctrines,

2) Talk about paradoxes, conflicting visions - as if contradiction is a good and noble thing.

Uhhh.......Did any of that actually answer the question, or are you attempting to sideline this thread into the issue of free will? If so, there is a rather large discussion on Calvinism in the Apologetics forum.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (Ddavid from NC @ Mar 17 2008, 08:53 AM)

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 KJV

We have all heard and probably all said, "God hates the sin and loves the sinner". Well, what do we do with this verse?

The passage means what it says.

Those who reject God's Sovereignty in the heart of man (aka Free Will Apologists), can't handle this passage, and for the many years that I have asked them their view on it, without exception they deny the passage of its central meaning and gratuitously divert the hatred on to something other than what the passage clearly teaches. Sort of the in same mold as hoplophobes project sin and evil on the firearm, banning it rather than dealing with the perp who misuses the otherwise inanimate, unconscious metal object, or blaming the alcohol and not the driver in a DUI death.

You might as well ask them why God hated Esau. (Ro 9:13) Without reading any of the other posts I can pretty much say that "hatred" will devolve into something that is not hatred. In fact, they will completely turn around the passage and say that God really loves them. I honestly don't know how folks can live with that kind of cognitive dissonance unless they just flat out reject those difficult passages in Scripture. And when I mean "difficult" I am talking about those many passages that argue against their bogus Free Will soteriology.

I am a "Free Will Apologist" and I have never had a problem with understanding such passages to mean exactly what they say. I was never taught anything different in 20 years of being a Christian.

I would say you need to cease the over-generalized assumptions about "Free Will apologists." Furthermore, you are off topic anyway.

[Ddavid from NC]

QUOTE (Ddavid from NC @ Mar 17 2008, 08:53 AM)

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 KJV

We have all heard and probably all said, "God hates the sin and loves the sinner". Well, what do we do with this verse?

The passage means what it says.

Those who reject God's Sovereignty in the heart of man (aka Free Will Apologists), can't handle this passage, and for the many years that I have asked them their view on it, without exception they deny the passage of its central meaning and gratuitously divert the hatred on to something other than what the passage clearly teaches. Sort of the in same mold as hoplophobes project sin and evil on the firearm, banning it rather than dealing with the perp who misuses the otherwise inanimate, unconscious metal object, or blaming the alcohol and not the driver in a DUI death.

You might as well ask them why God hated Esau. (Ro 9:13) Without reading any of the other posts I can pretty much say that "hatred" will devolve into something that is not hatred. In fact, they will completely turn around the passage and say that God really loves them. I honestly don't know how folks can live with that kind of cognitive dissonance unless they just flat out reject those difficult passages in Scripture. And when I mean "difficult" I am talking about those many passages that argue against their bogus Free Will soteriology.

I am a "Free Will Apologist" and I have never had a problem with understanding such passages to mean exactly what they say. I was never taught anything different in 20 years of being a Christian.

I would say you need to cease the over-generalized assumptions about "Free Will apologists." Furthermore, you are off topic anyway.

I have love for people on either side on the subject but the poster is not off subject but IMO at the core of the subject and very valid comments whether you agree or not. This theme runs through all of Scripture. So many dismiss it with the "lets explain it away" approach. I once suggested that the "freewill" argument is so crucial to how one interprets Scripture and I was quickly told it was not necessary to adopt a stance ion order to interpret Scripture. Here is proof. The contempt for the relevance of the argument will often hide the discovery of the deeper truths of Scripture.

[Guest shiloh357]

It has nothing to do with any "contempt for the relevancy of the argument." Rather it is contempt for the false, over-generalized assumption that those who believe in free will reject the sovereignty of God, and that we cannot accept the fact that there are sinners that God hates.

I, however, would argue that the problem stems from understanding the nature of God's hatred vs. the carnal human expression of hatred with which we are familar. What I would find objectionable is any attempt to impose our human expression of hate upon God as if God's hate was expressed in the same manner.

[Reuben Hick]

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 KJV

We have all heard and probably all said, "God hates the sin and loves the sinner". Well, what do we do with this verse?

The word hate in the Bible does not mean the same as it does in modern english. In the Bible it means "to love less." so God "Loves all workers of iniquity less."

So Psalm 5:5 could read "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou 'lovest less ' all workers of iniquity.

Can you prove that? Seriously. I have many theological dictionaries, language workbooks and other resources, and NONE of them say that "sane'" OT:8130 means "loves less". rather I see "enemy", "foe", "utter hate". Surely you didn't make this up, you must have some sort of authority that justifies this.

Here is something I found in the "Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament."

OT:8135

"The term 'saneh' has the same meaning in Ugaritic (UT 19: no. 2449). The verb 'sane' and its derivatives have the root meaning "to hate." It expresses an emotional attitude toward persons and things which are opposed, detested, despised and with which one wishes to have no contact or relationship. It is therefore the opposite of love. Whereas love draws and unites, hate separates and keeps distant. The hated and hating persons are considered foes or enemies and are considered odious, utterly unappealing."

(from Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. Copyright

[Fraught]

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 KJV

We have all heard and probably all said, "God hates the sin and loves the sinner". Well, what do we do with this verse?

The passage means what it says.

Those who reject God's Sovereignty in the heart of man (aka Free Will Apologists), can't handle this passage, and for the many years that I have asked them their view on it, without exception they deny the passage of its central meaning and gratuitously divert the hatred on to something other than what the passage clearly teaches. Sort of the in same mold as hoplophobes project sin and evil on the firearm, banning it rather than dealing with the perp who misuses the otherwise inanimate, unconscious metal object, or blaming the alcohol and not the driver in a DUI death.

You might as well ask them why God hated Esau. (Ro 9:13) Without reading any of the other posts I can pretty much say that "hatred" will devolve into something that is not hatred. In fact, they will completely turn around the passage and say that God really loves them. I honestly don't know how folks can live with that kind of cognitive dissonance unless they just flat out reject those difficult passages in Scripture. And when I mean "difficult" I am talking about those many passages that argue against their bogus Free Will soteriology.

The usual rhetoric occasionally calls for the red herring approach, that is, someone will point out that this is an imprecatory Psalm, as if there is something disqualifying and inherently wrong about praying for the demise of one's enemy. They might even go as far to say that David was blaspheming by projecting David's personal contempt for sinners on to God (who allegedly loves all men). Then comes the deflection, so while you are thinking about the nature of the Psalm you are then fed a line that says that either hate doesn't mean hate, or it isn't the doer (as the passage clearly says), but it is the sin (which the passage doesn't say). In either case, you are made to feel guilty about having a low view of God's enemies, then while you are told that David was just having a bad day, you get the lie, from that point, anything goes.

If one explores the core of Free Will Theology, there is no divine hate, and logically there is no divine love. The Free Will Enthusiast will deconstruct "love" so much that it is completely devoid of all meaning. They will say that God's love for the Saint is the same as His love for the Sinner. Never mind the Prodigal son's father did not coming running out of the house and demonstrating love towards anybody who wandered up to the residence. Never mind Hebrews that teaches that God chastens whom He loves. Erase from your mind the passages in Romans that teach that God works things out for those who love Him. Forget all of the passages that convey a pattern of active love towards those who God considers His sheep/children. Certainly don't ask why God's love is poured out on His Elect or why that is even taught in Scripture, for afterall, if there is no distinction between the love God has for His own, and the alleged "love" God has for the reprobate, then why is it constantly represented in Scriptures? The Free Will Enthusiast doesn't want you to ask those questions. The anthropocentric warm fuzzies surrounding an empty "love" on all mankind trumps orthodox theology and God's revealed character.

Remember, God allegedly loves people straight into eternal destruction and damnation. We are told that God poured out His love for the Sodomites when he rained down fire from the heavens without warning. We are supposed to believe that wiping out billions of people during the Flood was a divine act of exhibited love for the antediluvians. And surely God must love the generations of people who lived and died never having heard the Gospel. Why God even is supposed to love those who He deliberately blinds and keeps in darkness so that they will not believe. (John 12:40). This so-called "love" is supposed to be indistinguishable from the love God has for His Elect.

Under Free Will Theology, where everyone is supposed to have an equal shot at setting themselves straight and making the correct choice, God must love everyone head-for-head, and that is why the word 'kosmos', or 'world' as we read in John 3:16, cannot mean 'those from every nation' (which is consistent with all of Scripture) but must mean 'everyone head for head' (which conflicts with many passages, particularly Ps 5:5).

The Free Will Enthusiast has two options:

1) Deny or deconstruct the Scriptures that conflict with the anthropocentric Pelagian doctrines,

2) Talk about paradoxes, conflicting visions - as if contradiction is a good and noble thing.

thanks for the post. you made a couple of things so clear. i don't know what you mean by 'free will theology' but it's irrelevant to the topic anyway. what is clear is that God means what he says and says what he means. if that fact occasionally goes against our concept of fair play, that would be the same as saying that it is unfair that 2 + 2 must equal 4.