Brad Posted May 5, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 5, 2004 BRAD HERE ARE JUST A FEW SCRIPTURES THAT SHOW THE ERROR OF WHAT YOU ARE PREACHING OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THE LORD HIMSELF. Mt 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Mt 18:3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Mt 19:23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Mt 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS So what does this prove? That the new heavens "Covenant" has not come and that we are still in the old heaven "Covenant". You just posted Heaven is all around us. Did you just change your mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted May 5, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 5, 2004 Brad, I do agree with what you say..but have to disagree with the tribulation part. If this was true we WOULD be living in the millenium and Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest resurectionhope Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 BRAD HEAVEN AND THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.. THE KINGDOME OF HEAVEN IS THE MELINIAL REIGN OF CHRIST AND GODS REST. HEAVEN IS GODS THRONE, WHERE HE SITS NOW. THIS IS MEAT PLEASE DON'T CHOKE. KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted May 5, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 5, 2004 BRAD HEAVEN AND THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.. THE KINGDOME OF HEAVEN IS THE MELINIAL REIGN OF CHRIST AND GODS REST. HEAVEN IS GODS THRONE, WHERE HE SITS NOW. THIS IS MEAT PLEASE DON'T CHOKE. KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS I can't believe that you would write something like this. It make no sense to separate Heaven and the Kingdom of Heaven. :oww: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest phelanfine Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 GODS REST, THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, THE KINGDOM OF GOD, THE MILLINIAL REIGN OF CHRIST. THE LATER RAIN. are all the same thing. AMEN . PRAISE THE LORD. JESUS CHRIST IS LORD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted May 6, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 6, 2004 GODS REST, THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, THE KINGDOM OF GOD, THE MILLINIAL REIGN OF CHRIST. THE LATER RAIN. are all the same thing. AMEN . PRAISE THE LORD. JESUS CHRIST IS LORD If the Latter Rain is the same thing then that was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost when Peter said after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that it was the fulfillment of Joel 2 where it speaks of the early and Latter Rain. You are getting closer to the truth then the rest on this topic. Praise the Lord I was at one time involved with the original people that started the Latter Rain Movement in 1948. I was born less then 100 miles where it started in N. Battleford Saskatchewan. Now it bothers me when I hear people asking for the Lord's presences as if He is not here. Or send us the rain Lord when He already has. Why not just thank Him for what He has done and give Him glory by letting Him manifest Himself through us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3;16 Posted May 6, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 274 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/09/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/16/1955 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Babylon is not Jerusalem, there is a book that I believe has solid evidence and understanding of end time prophesy, the name of the book is: The Coming World Leader, the Author is David Hocking, here is some execerpts, a beast comes out of the Mediterranean Sea and has seven heads and ten horns. One of its heads recieved a deadly wound and was brought back to life. We believe this sixth head is the one that recievd the fatal blow. It came back to Life as a ten-nation (ten horns) confederacy, making it the seventh head, out of which will come a world dicator. Chapter 17 introduces us to a woman who sits on the beast with seven heads and ten horns. She is called " the great harlot, " and the name on her forehead is: "Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth. " In chapter 18 we see the fall of Babylon the Great. It appears this chapter is a detailed account of what is described in the closing verses of chapter 17. Many Bible teachers see the destruction of the woman as a removal of the world religious order, and the destruction of the city called " Babylon the Great " as the end of the political system that controls the entire world. That is difficult to prove. A simple reading of the text suggests that the fall of Babylon the Great is the destruction of the woman; she is Babylon the Great. The beast is destroyed by the return of Jesus Christ (19:11-21). The beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire (19:20) The woman is destroyed by the ten kings (horns) who form the political alliance through which the beast ascends to power. The woman pictures a false religion that will dominate the world in the tribulation period, whereas the beast symbolizes the world government of the last half of the tribulation period. Both symbols illustrate the past as well as the presant. Past history has demonstrated the awful reality of both systems-religious and political-as the have been corrupted by human depravity and moral degradation. The religious system of the end times will be led by the false prophet (13:11-18) whereas the political system will be led by the beast we know as the antichrist (13:1-10). The Woman On The Beast (17:1-18) (1) Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, " Come, I will show you the judgement of the great harlot who sits on many waters, (2) with whom the kings of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fernication. " (3) so he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns, (4) The woman was arrayed in purple and scarle, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her forication. (5) And on her forehead a name was writen: Mystery, Babylon the Great, The Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations Of the Earth. (6) And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement. (7) But the angel said to me, Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will assend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are no written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (9) Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. (10) There are also seven kings,Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. and when he comes, he must continue a short time. (11) And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eigth, and is of the seven, and is going into perdition. (12) And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have recieved no kingdom as yet, but they recieve authority for one hour as kings with the beast. (13) These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. (14) These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for he is Lord of lords and king of kings; and those who are with him are called, chosen, and faithful. (15) And he said to me, " The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. (16) And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hat the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. (17) For God hath put it into their hearts to fulfill his purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. (18) And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth" The Defination of the Woman (17:1-6, 15) The announcement of judgement. When John is invited to see this great harlot who sits on many waters, he is told he will be veiwing her judgement. The description of her as the "great harlot" emphasizes the all-purvasive influence of this woman throughout history and the seriouness of that influence in the eyes of God. This is not to be taken lightly. Revelation 19:2 is the responce of a great multitude in heaven over the fall of the harlot, Babylon the Great. This praise honors God because " He has judged the great harlot, " avenging the blood of His servants which the harlot has shed throughout history.The authority of the woman. the influence of this herlot is quite extensive; a\she "sits on many waters," representing "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" (vv.1,15). Her influence has invaded all nations of the world. John saw the woman "sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns" (17:3). It was in a desolate place that John viewed this woman on the beast, reminding us that death not life is the environment in which the harlot and the beast thrive. The woman sits on the beast, exercising authority and influence over it. Whatever the woman represents, she has dominated all the great empires of the world and will be prominent in the tribulation as well. Perhaps the most fascinating statement of all concerning her authority and influence is the statement of verse 2: "With whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication." Fornication is sexual immorality. Symbolically, this harlot has used sex and drunkeness to entice and seduce world leaders and the inhabitants of the world. (cf 18:3, 9, 23; 19:2).what a graphic picture of deception, manipulation, and seduction. Throughout history, the story has been repeated. This harlot has affected all nations, and God will judge her for it and destroy her once for all. The appearance of the woman. It is tempting to relate the appearance of this woman with the lavish wealth of the Roman Catholic church. That view point was the strong opinion of the Reformers, as we might expect. It was also the view of Tertullian,Jerome,Augustine, and most Bible commentators throughtout medieval church history. Protostant Bible schollars have been strongly influenced to identify this woman as the Roman Church. That may be the case / time will tell. However, it is important to see that the woman sits on the beast whose heads represent the empires of past and future world history. The Roman Catholic Church is a part of the problem, but cannot be the only problem in the prophetic puzzle. False religion is found among protostants as well as catholics. False relition has permeated all the cultures of the world and has produced a variety of beliefs and practices incompatible with orthodox christianity. Organized religion has never been a friend to true believers in the One True God and his Messiah, Jesus Christ, Our Lord. Devotion to our God has often been set aside by those who prefer pomp and lavish display. Spiritiual comittment has never been the "bottom line" for those dedicated to power and wealth. There is overwhelming evidence that Jerusalem is not Babylon simple things like the fact that Jerusalem was not a world power at that time (70 A.D.) Did not rule over tonges, nations, multitudes, nor was she dispersed in them, she had no influience over nations, did not have great wealth, was under supression of Rome at the time. All nations were not gathered against Jerusalem, Jesus did not come and fight against those nations, The 1000 year reign did not follow the so called seven year tribulation period, the nations yet to learned war no longer, they have not beat there swords into plow shares, In 70 A.D. the temple was destroyed and no stone was left upon another, that did fulfill that prophesy and Isreal was scatered as prophesied, but the generation that Jesus was speaking of when he said: This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. is the gerneration that will witness the tribulation in the last days, He gave the parable of the fig tree, when its branches is yet tender, and puttehh forth leaves, ye know summer is nigh, (Israel is depicted as fig tree) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near the end, even at the door. so the generation that witnesses: nation shall rise against nation, wars and rumours of wars, earthquakes in different places, pestilences, these are the signs that the generation which shall not pass away, until all these things be fulfilled, will witness before they pass away. This sounds alot like the days we live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted May 6, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 6, 2004 Quote: There is overwhelming evidence that Jerusalem is not Babylon simple things like the fact that Jerusalem was not a world power at that time (70 A.D.) Did not rule over tonges, nations, multitudes, nor was she dispersed in them, she had no influience over nations, did not have great wealth, was under supression of Rome at the time. All nations were not gathered against Jerusalem, Jesus did not come and fight against those nations, The 1000 year reign did not follow the so called seven year tribulation period, the nations yet to learned war no longer, they have not beat there swords into plow shares, In 70 A.D. the temple was destroyed and no stone was left upon another, that did fulfill that prophesy and Isreal was scatered as prophesied, but the generation that Jesus was speaking of when he said: This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. is the gerneration that will witness the tribulation in the last days, He gave the parable of the fig tree, when its branches is yet tender, and puttehh forth leaves, ye know summer is nigh, (Israel is depicted as fig tree) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near the end, even at the door. so the generation that witnesses: nation shall rise against nation, wars and rumours of wars, earthquakes in different places, pestilences, these are the signs that the generation which shall not pass away, until all these things be fulfilled, will witness before they pass away. This sounds alot like the days we live in. But the looks of this it proves that Jesus and the apostles were not saying the truth. The main problem with this is that it assumes that scripture was not fulfilled as Jesus and John said it would be. I'll try to tear this up what you wrote in pieces. Quote: There is overwhelming evidence that Jerusalem is not Babylon simple things like the fact that Jerusalem was not a world power at that time (70 A.D.) Jerusalem was the world center of the Old Covenant system that was suppose to reach out to the gentile world and offer a relationship with God. The ones who did come into fellowship with God were called proslites. Quote: Did not rule over tonges, nations, multitudes, nor was she dispersed in them, she had no influience over nations, It was God's will that Jerusalem would be the Capital of the entire world. This may also which you wrote be referring to the Beast which the Harlot "Babylon" rode. The Beast was Rome. Quote: did not have great wealth, was under supression of Rome at the time. Could be referring to Spiritual wealth, remember the book of Revelations was written in signified form so a literal interpetation would be most likely wrong. Jerusalem was riding Rome at the time. They could not rule supereme because of Rome's might. Quote: All nations were not gathered against Jerusalem, Israel had enemies all around them back then as well as today. Tell me at least one nation that was with Jerusalem back then? Quote: Jesus did not come and fight against those nations, It depends on how you look at history. Jesus was risen from the dead at the time. What do you think He was doing? Rome did fall about 450 years after. Did not the European countries fight against each other throughout most of the Middle or Dark Ages. Quote: The 1000 year reign did not follow the so called seven year tribulation period, There is no so called seven year Tribulation. Three and a half years were given for that and that was exactly how long Rome was at war with Jerusalem before she "Babylon" fell. Quote: the nations yet to learned war no longer, they have not beat there swords into plow shares, I would say that in general they have, but wars still happen because of the stoney hearts of unbelievers. We have come a long way in trying to give liberty and justice for all. In North America and western Europe in the last 200 years they have in general changed the world for the better of mankind. Before that in the dark ages example people were burned at the stake just for thinking differently then those modern day Pharisees in power in the so called Church. Quote: In 70 A.D. the temple was destroyed and no stone was left upon another, that did fulfill that prophesy and Isreal was scatered as prophesied, but the generation that Jesus was speaking of when he said: This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. is the gerneration that will witness the tribulation in the last days, Are you saying that Jerusalem did not go through Great Tribulation for three and a half years or time, times and half a time, when Rome was at war with them and the Christians escaped as warned. I think you fail to see history as it happen. Read Josefus it's all there. Quote: He gave the parable of the fig tree, when its branches is yet tender, and puttehh forth leaves, ye know summer is nigh, (Israel is depicted as fig tree) Israel maybe depicted as a fig tree, but Jesus was simply saying that when you see things happen as excepted they will happen. Just like when Jerusalem was surrounded by the Rome army outside the gate the Christains knew that it was time to run and they did and escaped the Great Tribulations that came against God's peolpe in Babylon, I mean Jerusalem. Quote: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near the end, even at the door. so the generation that witnesses: nation shall rise against nation, wars and rumours of wars, earthquakes in different places, pestilences, these are the signs that the generation which shall not pass away, until all these things be fulfilled, will witness before they pass away. Yup, and it all happened in 70 AD Quote: This sounds alot like the days we live in. It's sad that all generations from Martin Luther to now have thought that they were the ones that were about to go through the Great Tribulation. What a waste of time and worry when we should have been looking at scripture from every angle possable instead of sword fighting everyone with a different view. I was a Smorisboardist for a while until I found a view that made the most sense out of all this end-time stuff. I searched for thirty years, started with the Pre- trib. then Post Trib to Seventh day Adventist to My own view and wrote a book at was wrong. Full Preterism is what I found that convinced me. But you are welcome to reject it, I'm probably just wasting my time writing this. However I need to give what I have received as the truth. May God Bless you all with the truth. :sleep: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted May 6, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted May 6, 2004 Brad: Where did Jesus say that there will be wicked people living in the Millenium? And where does it say they still flourish? Don't you think the days we live in are like Sodom and Gomorah? . Angels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted May 6, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/22/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 6, 2004 Brad: Where did Jesus say that there will be wicked people living in the Millenium? And where does it say they still flourish? Don't you think the days we live in are like Sodom and Gomorah? . Angels It's referring to the New Heavens and Earth. The 1000 years was symbolic not literal. Check my posting in Controlversal Issues under 1000 Year Mystery Solved for that. BTW death is mentioned in the New Heavens along with sinners still being there. Isaiah 65 20"No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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