Can believers be un-converted?

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (Smalcald @ Mar 29 2008, 09:08 AM)

I honestly don't know where I stand on OSAS.

I mean there is scriptural evidence in Hebrews in particular about dogs returning to their own vomit, ....

Well why would a dog return to his vomit? Because he is still a dog. A dog who returns to his vomit does so because he never stopped being a dog. It is picture of a person who was never regenerated. He returned to his old life and in doing so proved the lack of authenticity in his profession of faith.

So, what is the difference between a dog returning to his vomit and a backslidden christian???? Are you saying the person never believed??????

What I am saying is this. When someone who professes to be a Christian and return to his/her sin and ENJOY it, they were never a Christian to start with, and there is no scriptural argument that can be made to contrary. A Christian can fall into sin, but if they are truly saved, they are miserable the entire time. I have seen Christians in that condition. The conviction the Holy Spirit can bring is enormous. I have also seen the peace that comes when they finally surrender and return to right living and following Christ. A dog that returns to his vomit is someone who never truly repented of their sin and became a new creation they still have the capacity to enjoy the old sin they knew before they professed Christ. They are still same old sinner they were before, and the fact that they can still enjoy their former sin only proves that fact.

A lot of people have "religion." Anyone can be "religious" and live the "Christian life." They go to church, sing in the choir, even teach sunday school. They may even help out in other activities such as Vacation Bible School and go on mission trips. At some point though, they are going to break down. Religion, among other things, is a drain on your strength and resources. It requires you to give and give and give and offers nothing in return. It makes incredible demands but doesn't empower you fulfill such demands and does not reward those who are faithful. It offers no peace, no assurance, and certainly no grace. It is no wonder some people "backslide."

It is religioun that demands that you must do this and don't do that, in order to secure, maintain or otherwise ensure your rightstanding with God. The problem is, religion can't tell you when you have done enough. It offers no assurance. If eternal life is based on what you do, you have no idea how much is required or if you have really met the standard. You won't know until the very moment after you die.

Jesus on the other hand, offers you eternal life because He is eternal life. Eternal life is not place or even a length of time. It is Jesus Himself, and He said so. He also said that by our faith in Him we can KNOW that we HAVE (present tense) eternal life (John 5:24). Salvation, genuine salvation is a "know-so salvation." It is something I have today and the Bible says in 1 John 5:11-13, that we can know today that we have eternal life today. It is not somethng we have to wait and find out about after we die. It is what have now, or what we don't have now, depending on if we have made Jesus our Savior or not.

It is possible to belong to the Christian "religion" all your life but miss out on Christ in the process. There are a lot of people who are going to hell, not because they were drug addicts, or muderers or prostitutes, but because they NEVER were. There are people today who are just strutting right into hell, with their heads held high thinking they are in good standing. They have "religion" but they have missed out on Jesus.

[Guest shiloh357]

There is a certain type of religious vanity that some people possess. They see salvation as a reward that they fancy they deserve for their works and meticulous keeping of the law, and so forth. "Religious" people live under a deslusion that they are capable of pleasing God. While we may do thing that are pleasing to the Lord, that is not the same thing as we, ourselves, being pleasing to God.

All of us, bear the stain of original sin. All of our works, no matter how good they may be, will always bear that stain, this side of grave. Nothing we do no matter how grandiose, no matter how "spiritual" we think it is, will never meet up with God's standard.

You see, God standard for salvation is perfection. It is not just a matter of keeping the law or doing good deeds. Even if you didn't commit another sin the rest of your life, your good works would never been good enough to secure or maintain your salvation because of the taint of original sin. So it is folly to think, "I can get saved but I have to live this way or that in order to secure it."

There are no "ifs" when it comes to salvation. It is either a work of God or He wants nothing to do with it. Jesus wants be Lord of all, or not Lord at all. He does not share the stage. He is not going to share the credit for your salvation. Salvation is not a partnership effort between you and God. You are not good enough to maintain your salvation. You weren't good enough to merit it, and are not good enough or strong enough to keep it. From beginning to end salvation is wholly a work of God. Salvation = Jesus + 0.

[mrs]

Thankyou for explaining it so much better than I could Shiloh.

[Floatingaxe]

QUOTE (Smalcald @ Mar 29 2008, 09:08 AM)

I honestly don't know where I stand on OSAS.

I mean there is scriptural evidence in Hebrews in particular about dogs returning to their own vomit, ....

Well why would a dog return to his vomit? Because he is still a dog. A dog who returns to his vomit does so because he never stopped being a dog. It is picture of a person who was never regenerated. He returned to his old life and in doing so proved the lack of authenticity in his profession of faith.

So, what is the difference between a dog returning to his vomit and a backslidden christian???? Are you saying the person never believed??????

What I am saying is this. When someone who professes to be a Christian and return to his/her sin and ENJOY it, they were never a Christian to start with, and there is no scriptural argument that can be made to contrary. A Christian can fall into sin, but if they are truly saved, they are miserable the entire time. I have seen Christians in that condition. The conviction the Holy Spirit can bring is enormous. I have also seen the peace that comes when they finally surrender and return to right living and following Christ. A dog that returns to his vomit is someone who never truly repented of their sin and became a new creation they still have the capacity to enjoy the old sin they knew before they professed Christ. They are still same old sinner they were before, and the fact that they can still enjoy their former sin only proves that fact.

A lot of people have "religion." Anyone can be "religious" and live the "Christian life." They go to church, sing in the choir, even teach sunday school. They may even help out in other activities such as Vacation Bible School and go on mission trips. At some point though, they are going to break down. Religion, among other things, is a drain on your strength and resources. It requires you to give and give and give and offers nothing in return. It makes incredible demands but doesn't empower you fulfill such demands and does not reward those who are faithful. It offers no peace, no assurance, and certainly no grace. It is no wonder some people "backslide."

It is religioun that demands that you must do this and don't do that, in order to secure, maintain or otherwise ensure your rightstanding with God. The problem is, religion can't tell you when you have done enough. It offers no assurance. If eternal life is based on what you do, you have no idea how much is required or if you have really met the standard. You won't know until the very moment after you die.

Jesus on the other hand, offers you eternal life because He is eternal life. Eternal life is not place or even a length of time. It is Jesus Himself, and He said so. He also said that by our faith in Him we can KNOW that we HAVE (present tense) eternal life (John 5:24). Salvation, genuine salvation is a "know-so salvation." It is something I have today and the Bible says in 1 John 5:11-13, that we can know today that we have eternal life today. It is not somethng we have to wait and find out about after we die. It is what have now, or what we don't have now, depending on if we have made Jesus our Savior or not.

It is possible to belong to the Christian "religion" all your life but miss out on Christ in the process. There are a lot of people who are going to hell, not because they were drug addicts, or muderers or prostitutes, but because they NEVER were. There are people today who are just strutting right into hell, with their heads held high thinking they are in good standing. They have "religion" but they have missed out on Jesus.

I agree with this!

[stacey c]

Revelation 3:13-22; He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." V. 14 "And unto the angel of the church of Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning og the creation of God;" V. 15 "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot." V. 16 "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot I will spue thee out of my mouth." V. 17 "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing, and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, naked:" V.18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white rainment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and annoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." V. 19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. V.20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." V. 21 " To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame,and am sat down with my Father in his throne." V. 22 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." Sounds to me that the Holy Spirit was talking to church members, not the people of the world. I believe I will continue to be "hot" and repent of my sins and short comings on a daily basis. I don't want to be spued out for being "Lukewarm." And finally in V. 21 the Holy Spirit said "TO HE THAT OVERCOMETH, WILL I GRANT TO SIT WITH ME IN MY THRONE." sounds to me that the Holy Spirit gave us the power to determine whether we stay in Him or not. How about Matthew 10:22 " And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake; but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matthew 24 : 10 - 13 " And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another." V. "And many false prophets shall arise, and shall deceive many." V. 12 "And because iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold." V.13 "But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved." And finally Hebrews 10 :38 - 39, "NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM." V.39 "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition: but of them that believe to the saving of their soul."

[BurnForChrist]

God will always be there for us as a strength to help us to overcome our flesh not to sin, but he will NOT intervene for us not to sin. Jesus was tempted in all points to sin, but never sinned. We are also tempted in all points to sin, but have the Holy Spirits help to overcome if we allow it. We are warned all over in the New Testament not to give into the flesh and avoid sin. Christs still have the ability to sin, but have help through God not to.

Here is where you have error,

Genesis 20

"3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him,

[Guest shiloh357]

While this sounds humble and lowly in spirit, it is only partially biblically correct. We truly can add nothing to the sacrifice of Christ for our iniquities. It is full an sufficient to cover and completely remove the stain of anyone

[Guest shiloh357]

Ditto! Beautifully written Shiloh! Sometimes you remind me so much of my Pastor.

Thanks, Bibs!

"Religious" people fail to see that God is not nearly as impressed with their good works as they are. It goes back to that vanity I mentioned earlier.

It is that vanity that causes religious people to feel that their good works make them worthy and desering of the grace of God. In "religion," grace is only extended to those who don't sin or live according to the subjective standards that religion imposes. Biblical, New Testament grace is the kiss of death to religion. Grace is not the absence of obedience. Rather, it is the catalyst and empowerment to obey.

It is the anti-thesis of relgion, because religion operates from an inaccurate measuring standard. Religious vanity measures itself against those who do meet its own subjective of standard of "righteousness." Biblical New Testament grace causes us rather, to measure ourselves against Christ. Jesus is the plumline, He is the only standard against which we should measure ourselves. In fact, were we to do that, we would not have time to stand around trying to measure and size-up one another. We would be too grieved over our own shortcomings and certainly too busy to be heaping condemnation others.

Far from being a "license to sin" grace demands a particular rule of life. Grace is both the empowerment and expectation of righteous living.

Paul wrote in Titus

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus 2:11-14 (KJV)

Notice that grace teaches us 4 things:

1. To deny ungodliness and worldly lusts

2. To live soblerly, righteously and godly

3. To look for the blessed hope of Christ's appearance

4. That our redemption in Christ was that He would purify us to Himself as a peculiar people zealous for good works.

Grace properly understood, encourages obedience. But that obedience, according to verse 11 above, is the result of salvation, not the means of procuring it. The grace that saves us and keeps us also empowers us to live rightesously and goldy as a direct result of the inward, transforming work wrought by God in the Person of the Holy Spirit the minute we accept Christ as Savior.

What grace does not teach us is that our works maintain, or ensure our rightstanding with God. That is what makes religion the anti-thesis of grace and the authentic Christian faith. Grace does not contribute the vanity of religious pride, which deludes a person into thinking that their "holiness" is earning them salvation points with God.

[Arthur Durnan]

And don't ever forget that the Prodigal Son who took off for the far country was never at any time in his life - at home or in that far country - any less than his father's son....neither in his dad's banqueting hall nor sprawled out in that distant pig-pen! Fellowship can change, but not relationship! Everlasting salvation is the ONLY kind of salvation God offers us. Liberation in Christ to now do as one OUGHT, not as someone might WANT. AMEN! And Thank You, Lord Jesus!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[stacey c]

Amen, Unred Typo! "What I like to know, is where any non-osas believers ever stated that we disagree that it is by grace that we are saved? And yes, we believe the scriptures that state "That God will finish the work that He has started." And "There is no good thing in my but Christ." Works will not earn our way into Glory. But the scriptures also tell us to " FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH." Hmmmmm sounds to me as though it is possible to loose our faith if we don't fight to keep it. Revelation 2: 2-5 "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil, and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:" V. 3 "And hast borne, and hast patience, and for names sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted," V. 4 "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love." V. 5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works: Or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Well, I don't see how anyone can leave something they never had in the first place. If the Spirit was clearly stating repent, and return to your first love, obviously they loved Him at first and then wlked away from Him. Sounds like a human choice to walk away from their Savior. And yes they were saved at one time they Loved Him. The Spirit tells them to repent from their turning away, or He will come and remove their candlestick. Don't see here where I could not lose my right standing with my Savior.