The JEWS are the cause of all the world's evils

[nebula]

You can even tell them they are chosen as long as they come to Jesus. Just don't tell them they are chosen if they refuse to believe in the cross and Jesus Christ.

PF - why do you suppose anyone is arguing against evangelizing to the Jews about their Messiah?

And why do you suppose their calling as a people is about going to Heaven?

[Guest yod]

OK PR...I really want to believe that you are sincere in your zeal for the Lord but have just been misinformed by a greek theological mindset. I hope that you can see that we are also sincere in our zeal for the Lord and that this issue is something which could be resolved by letting the scriptures speak.

The troubling thing about the scriptures you used in the last post was that you kept interpreting the verses as if they were addressed to judaism; as if the problem Yeshua's enemies had were caused solely by being jewish and ate up with religion. Again...for the sake of clairity...Judaism didn't even begin until about 55 years AFTER the crucifixtion. The problem in Jerusalem wasn't "judaism"....it was the utter corruption of God's Word by sinful men who were in positions of authority and could get away with it. It was pride and arrogance. Is that exclusive to jews or Israel? I hope you would admit that it isn't.

To say we worship the same God and we can please him thru Judaism after what Jesus did is the problem.

who is saying we can please Him through Judaism? Please let me know and we'll join you to make sure that gets cleared up!

But plenty of folks making lots of money prostituting the word of Almighty God telling folks were cursed if we don't support Israel.

I don't think you'll find anyone here is making the mistake of blind allegiance to a political entity. I can, however, bless people that I don't necessarily support

Is it possible that you and I can disagree without necessarily having to fight? Can we show grace to each other when we have little in common? Is it also possible that I could choose to curse you instead of engaging in constructive dialog over our disagreements?

This kind of graceful etiquette is helpful on a discussion board...but when it comes to showing grace towards Israrel, it is a commandment of God that we bless the sons of Jacob...whether these natural branches remain on the tree or not.

That has nothing to do with supporting a political entity but you also can't take the position that Israel is always wrong and in need of further punishment from God just because you disagree with something Israel does. It's not our place to fight them "for God" either.

By the way, according to Peter in Acts 4, it was the gentiles who killed Yeshua in collusion with "the leaders of the people". This is quite different than blaming all "the jews" for His death.

Your cursed if you don't support the Spiritual Israel, Jesus Christ, he is the only one protecting you from the coming wrath.

If you would look at what the Prophets have to say about the coming of the Messiah, you would see that this time of intense wrath is coming upon the enemies of Israel.

And there is no such thing as "spiritual" Israel in the Bible. That is a post-biblical european theological invention

We all know that the only way to the Father is thru Jesus Christ. If your not with Jesus, you are against him. He was clear on this....see above scripture.

Has anyone argued that point here?

The wrath will be on Judaism Israel and every unbeliever in this world.

That wrath will be on every person who has not loved the Truth. There will be no division other than that.

Jesus is Israel, he is a Jew, his disciples were Jews, they are the Chosen Israel...and everybody is invited. If you can reach the Judaism Jews with that message.... You can even tell them they are chosen as long as they come to Jesus.

this statement informs me that you don't really understand what "chosen" means biblically. It isn't a superior position as the greek mindset would assume but rather a responsibility that carries a burden of higher judgement.

God called Israel His chosen though they were disobedient for most of their history. It has nothing to do with their "works" (or grace wouldn't be grace) but everything to do with God's faithfulness to complete what He started. Does that mean every jew who ever lived is going heaven? Gosh no...we would never say that. Do you think that everyone called a christian is going to heaven?

It's a matter of faithfulness to God and nothing else matters in the big picture. But you seem to be confusing a few issues here and it's causing you to make some statements that I'm sure you've heard from a preacher somewhere and thought it was in the bible.

God has made a covenant with Israel. It is an unconditional promise to the sons of Jacob that He is not about to break for His promises are irrevocable!

It is precisely because of that promise that the good news came to you and to me through some jewish men about 2,000 years ago. We have been given a purpose to show mercy to them as we were shown mercy while we were yet His enemies. Be careful not to curse Israel because God does have a plan for them and it will be completed at His glorious appearing.

That's all I'm trying to say to you.

Reconciliation of Israel is more important than restoration. One has eternal consequences the other world consequences.

Both are sides of the same coin and both have eternal consequences.

[WayneB]

Reconciliation of Israel is more important than restoration. One has eternal consequences the other world consequences.

Both are sides of the same coin and both have eternal consequences.

Exactly Yod.

Last night, I was reading Peter's discourse to the Jewish crowd found in Acts chapter 3 in which he stated...

"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you

[Guest shiloh357]

So I ask again - which verse(s) show that the covenant made with Abraham was ever broken?

QUOTE

Matthew 3:8-10 NIV

8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 8:11-12 NIV

11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The subjects of the kingdom are Jews who thought their Judaism was inherited passport for entrance into the kingdom. John the Baptist and Jesus explained it direct and to the point.

The problem is that you are trying to answer an argument that has not been raised. Secondly, you are still making the classic 21st Century "western" Christian mistake. You are trying to take what John the Baptist and Jesus said to the corrupt leaders of Israel/Jerusalem and project those criticisms and rebukes upon the entire Jewish nation en masse, and that is simply wrong. It shows that you are ignoring the context, purpopse and audience inherent within the passage. You are ignoring the intent of the Author, as well. You simply cannot paint the Jewish people with some broad brush as you doing. They are not a monolith. You cannot say, "Jews believed thus-and-so." You cannot even do that with Christians. Jews were just as diverse in religious practice and belief as modern Christians are. Not all Jews saw their works as a means to enter the Kingdom, and many Jews today do not believe that.

Unfortunately, many people like you believe that others have TOLD them Jews believe. I doubt you have done much real research into the issue and it shows in your posts.

Jesus is Israel, Jerusalem, the seed...is all.

Actually, the Bible does not say any of that. Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus is Israel or Jersualem, and I defy you or anyone else to prove otherwise from the Bible. You won't prove it, because you can't.

Jews are separated from the Vine by their own choice. Everything in the Old Testament points to to the true Jew Jesus Christ and the cross. The Curtain was split signifies the end of Judaism, the rock split the end of Judaism and the New Covenant and the beginning of New Jewish Israel thru Jesus Christ. Now we came into the spiritual realm. I'm not telling you to believe me. Read it for yourself. Pray to Jesus.

Again, you are trying to refute an argument that has not been raised

Obviously, some will stand with Judaism Israel when the wrath of Almighty God is released on the world and and all hope is gone. Jesus is coming back for born again sancified believers Jews and Gentiles

Another problem you have is that you are refusing to distinguish between Judaism and Israel. Standing for Israel is not a tacit acceptance of the religion of Judaism.

Standing with Israel pertains to standing with Israel against those who claim that Israel does not have a right to exist and employ terrorism to conduct a war attrition.

We are commanded by God to bless Israel. Blessing Israel does not mean we feel Judaism provides a means of salvation. We are simply obeying the Lord. The problem is that your entire rant is based upon painting our support for Israel as a support or acceptance of Judaism and that is more or less, a straw man. Nothing in what we have presented would or should indicate that we are holding up Judaism as a means of salvation.

Until you get that fact straight in your head, any meaningful dialogue with you will be impossible.

The ancestors of Judaism Israel shed the blood of the Lords Saints and Prophets. Now you believe the current Judasism Jews still persistant on their belief should be honored in their disbelief of Jesus Christ...I believe if they don't repent they will perish.

So you believe that modern Jews are out there wanting to murder Christians???? This highlights one the most basic problems that Christians have when it comes to the Jewish people. As I stated earlier, Christians who know nothing about Jews, project on Jewish people what they THINK they know about the Jews.

You continuously refuse to make any distinction between the 1st Century Jewish leadership (who persecuted Jesus and His disciples) and the general Jewish populace (that followed Jesus and trusted in Him). What is worse, is that you project the hatred of the corrupt 1st Century and modern Jewish people. According to you, they are still longin to shed the blood of Christians.

I would remind you that for over 1,700 years, it was Jews who were tortured, murdered, and otherwise persecuted in "Christian" nations throughout Europe. It was Jewish villiages every Easter that were burned and pillaged after the local passion plays all throughout the Middle Ages in Christian Europe, in order to pay the Jews back for "killing Jesus." For the nearly two centuries, Jews have been labeled as "Christ killers" and have had their property stolen, denied basic civil rights, and whole host of other horrible things done to them in the name of Christ.

Here is a list of just a few things done to the Jews in the Name of Jesus:

Just prior to the establishment of Christianity as the official religion of Rome under Constantine, many of the Gentile believers began seeking to distance themselves from the Jews because of the Bar Kochba revolt. For years followers of Yeshua had been seen as a sect of Judaism. In order to be seen in a negative light by the Romans Gentile believers began avoiding things like Passover, the Sabbath, the dietary commandments and so forth; anything that was distinctively Jewish was dropped.

While there were some who continued to worship with their Jewish brethren, by the time the new empire under Constantine had emerged some serious changes were made.

[Guest shiloh357]

Continued from above....

But plenty of folks making lots of money prostituting the word of Almighty God telling folks were cursed if we don't support Israel.

Actually, those are God's words. Three times, the Bible says that those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel will be cursed. Like it or not, that is Bible, and you need to repent of your disobedience and start being a blessing to Israel.

Your cursed if you don't support the Spiritual Israel, Jesus Christ, he is the only one protecting you from the coming wrath.

snip...

Jesus is Israel, he is a Jew, his disciples were Jews, they are the Chosen Israel..

Once again, Jesus is not Israel, spiritual or otherwise, neither are His disciples. I am sorry, but there is simply NO biblical support for that view.

To say we worship the same God and we can please him thru Judaism after what Jesus did is the problem.

You are trying address an argument and are making assumptions about our position that we have not stated or even implied. No one is saying that God can be pleased through Judaism.

For that matter, God cannot even be pleased through Christianity. The only person who was ever "pleasing" to God was Jesus. Neither Judaism nor the Christian religion have anything "pleasing" to offer the Father. Jesus is the only who is pleasing to Him, period. It is Jesus who pleases the Father through us. We are not in and of ourselves pleasing to Him.

[sweetycakes]

Shiloh......your wisdom and knowledge of the Scriptures have been a blessing and encouragement to me on more than one occasion.

[Anne]

Shiloh, would you mind if I copied your posts regarding this subject into my computer file?

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, would you mind if I copied your posts regarding this subject into my computer file?

Not at all

[Anne]

Thank you.

[sistercindy]

Yes, it's true. At least if you listen to popular opinion.

I go on a great many forums, listen to a great many points of view.

And one thing I've noticed in recent years is the re-emergent belief that it is the Jews who are responsible for all the world's ills.

I never thought this would happen again. But people seem to have bought wholesale once again into the belief that the Jews are our enemies, and must be eradicated, at all costs.

Jews were responsible for 9/11

Jews were responsible for Hurricane Katrina

Jews are responsible for the latest stock market crash, world-wide

The holocaust was 'manufactured' by the Jews, and never really happened.....despite the fact that my own father fought in WWII to free Europe from Nazi occupation.

Jews kill innocent civilians in the West Bank and Gaza.....when in fact it is the other way around. Militants all too readily use civilians as human shields, and continue to pour high-explosive warheads into Israeli civilian towns......yet they cry 'murder' if any palestinian civilian is killed.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. I have noticed, over several years, a growing tendency to label Israel as the evil entity of the world.

20 years ago, I never would have thought that this could ever happen again. I would have thought that the world would have seen sense after WWII.

Not so, it seems.

Israel is again in the spotlight as the embodiment of all the evil in the world.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Wherever I go on the internet these days, Israel has the 'bad press'. People from all walks of life (believer and unbeliever), seem to agree that Israel is the aggressor.

My own take on this?

Since God first established Israel as his 'special possession', there have been those who have sought to 'wipe her out'. Primarily because Israel was the visible evidence of God's work in the world, and His claim on humanity.

These people that rail so much against Israel.......would they be satisfied if the muslim 'Sharia' law was to take over in their lands?

God's dealings with Israel are a type of His dealings with us, in my opinion.

He has been faithful to Israel. He will be faithful to us. And on that, we depend.

I have also noticed that those that are opposed to Israel seem to be opposed to fundamentalist Christianity.

My bible also shows God's faithfulness (thoughout the ages, and in no uncertain terms), both to Israel, and to his chosen ones.

God said that if day and night were ever to cease, then He will cast Israel off. He also said that if we can discover the foundations of the world, that He will cast Israel off. Day and night have not yet ceased, to my knowledge. And God Himself said that 'He hangs the earth upon nothing'.

We are inextricably linked with the fortunes of Israel, in a prophetic sense.

But the whole world seems to have caught the 'blame the Jew' fever once again.

Does anyone beside me notice this?

**oh how right you are my friend in Christ! Satan is once again active in his pursuits of the Jewish people....(and any who may come to saving knowledge of Christ)....yes, i have noticed...and although it hasn't surprised me it has stirred my heart ....it brings up the urgency of the times.... another sign of the Lord's coming & drawing nearer and nearer...