Why not just let others believe?

[OneLight]

Wow! That is just amazing! Do you REALLY think that all christians "love everyone as much as they love themselves?" Do you truly believe that only christians "put others' interests ahead of their own?" Christians corner the market on "Good" aspects of human behaviors? Wow! That's about all I can say to that - wow.

But that's just it, I didn't ASK you to share "the truth" with me. I only want to know WHY you believe it to BE "the truth."

Actually, you did ...

Questions like the ones above make you think that I want you to share your faith with me?

I guess I should explain that I was responding to a post by Fraught who claimed that he would like to have the entire world be christian because "christians love everyone as much as they love themselves" and that they "put others' interests ahead of their own." I THOUGHT I was pointing out that not all christians have these values and that many non-christians do.

So back to my REAL question: WHY do you believe your faith to be "THE TRUTH."

Still, you asked and I replied to these questions. I even started the post with "If I may ....". Laugh if you will, but I took it as a serious question. May I suggest that if you don't want an answer, then don't ask questions ...

But, to answer you "Real" question, here is my answer.

[Gerioke]

But that's just it, I didn't ASK you to share "the truth" with me. I only want to know WHY you believe it to BE "the truth."

Do you believe man has been to the moon? If so why do you believe?

Yes, of course I believe it. But I didn't always. A few years back when a TV program came out that tried to convince people that the moon landing was a hoax, I DID doubt it. But after researching, listening, and studying, I came to the conclusion that the moon landing did occur. If it really was a hoax don't you think that the Russians would have been able to expose it? After all, the ONLY reason for going to the Moon was to beat the Russians to it, yet they have never once even hinted at the possibility that it was a hoax. They know it was real! The Russians were closely monitoring the Americans every inch of the way, and were able to determine for a fact that the Americans did actually land on the Moon, much to their annoyance. IF they had claimed that the Americans didn't land on the moon because of x, y, or z, I would give it real thought.

What...you expected me to say that I believe it because I was told to believe it or because everyone believes it? No, that's not how I operate.

Okay, your turn...

Why can't you use the same logic with God? Nobody can prove that God is a hoax. You have all kinds of documentation to research and study, including witness accounts.

[Fraught]

funny, i was thinking about a part of your post yesterday, where you're speaking of viewpoints. every viewpoint being exclusive in some way. even those who preach tolerance of everyone are intolerant of those who aren't tolerant - !! i think it's human nature to be frustrated when others don't see things the way we do.

i enjoy diversity but must disagree that it would be bad if the whole world became christian. a whole world where everyone loved others as much as they loved themselves? where they put others' interests ahead of their own. where there was no selfishness, deceit or abuse? sounds kind of like heaven on earth to me !!

Wow! That is just amazing! Do you REALLY think that all christians "love everyone as much as they love themselves?" Do you truly believe that only christians "put others' interests ahead of their own?" Christians corner the market on "Good" aspects of human behaviors? Wow! That's about all I can say to that - wow.

i don't think i said anything about anyone cornering a market on anything.

[OneLight]

But, to answer you "Real" question, here is my answer.

Thank you for sharing your experience. If something like that had happened to me I would probably think it was a dream or a hallucination. To you it was something very special and I respect that, honestly. But how does your experience lead you to believe in the christian faith? If all you heard was, "I am alive" how does that lead you to think that it means there is truly an afterlife for everyone? How does it make you believe that unbelievers will go to hell? How does it make you believe in the "trinity?" How does it make you believe that christians have a personal relationship with a god? How does it make you believe that the bible is the true word of your god? None of these things were revealed in your vision.

I know that you truly think that jesus spoke to you but what if it wasn't jesus? I'm not being silly when I ask, what if were apollo? No one knows what jesus looked like. He didn't announce himself to you as jesus. Have you always thought it was jesus or did you ever doubt your vision?

To me it is very simple. I was seeking Jesus with all my heart at the time. It was He whom I was seeking and when Jesus answered, it confirmed in my heart that what I have sought is real. I can not explain the certainty of this experience no more then you can truly explain 100% of your beliefs to me. I take it by faith. Jesus would never lead me down a wrong road. I know it was real.

[Gerioke]

Why can't you use the same logic with God? Nobody can prove that God is a hoax. You have all kinds of documentation to research and study, including witness accounts.

Oh, believe me, I've researched. With my response about the moon landing, and my questioning nature, do you really think I haven't?

I answered your question about the moon landing, won't you answer mine? WHY do you believe in christianity?

I believe because

Most of the scriptures make sense to me, while very little of my world makes sense to me.

Jesus offers me hope and truth and eternal life while humanity offers me struggle, despair and meaninglessness.

The diversity of nature and perfection of our natural environment tells me there is a Creator who cares for us. On the flip side the nature of man tells me there is an influence that wants to destroy all that God has created. I see humanity as a hostage in a spiritual battle and I believe scripture when it tells me that the hostage crisis will soon be resolved and the hostage taker will soon be punished and humanity can go back to being in sync with God the Creator.

As far as people go, there are smart people and there are not so smart people. The smart people absorb all that is positive and draw from the experiences of others. The not so smart people continually go around telling everybody how big their brain is while missing the opportunities that present themselves on a daily basis.

A lot of people think I'm dim witted, atheist and Christian alike. That's ok to me. I would rather be seen as dim witted than be blind to the truth.

[OneLight]

But, to answer you "Real" question, here is my answer.

Thank you for sharing your experience. If something like that had happened to me I would probably think it was a dream or a hallucination. To you it was something very special and I respect that, honestly. But how does your experience lead you to believe in the christian faith? If all you heard was, "I am alive" how does that lead you to think that it means there is truly an afterlife for everyone? How does it make you believe that unbelievers will go to hell? How does it make you believe in the "trinity?" How does it make you believe that christians have a personal relationship with a god? How does it make you believe that the bible is the true word of your god? None of these things were revealed in your vision.

I know that you truly think that jesus spoke to you but what if it wasn't jesus? I'm not being silly when I ask, what if were apollo? No one knows what jesus looked like. He didn't announce himself to you as jesus. Have you always thought it was jesus or did you ever doubt your vision?

To me it is very simple. I was seeking Jesus with all my heart at the time. It was He whom I was seeking and when Jesus answered, it confirmed in my heart that what I have sought is real. I can not explain the certainty of this experience no more then you can truly explain 100% of your beliefs to me. I take it by faith. Jesus would never lead me down a wrong road. I know it was real.

Thank you for your response. At least you are honestly trying to answer my question rather than telling me to "go look" or to "have faith" or quoting scriptures to me. This is your personal account and it applies to you. Unfortunately, people have religious experiences all the time, and many of them have nothing to do with Jesus. You don

[Kansasdad]

From my perspective, I really don't care about whether I go to a nirvana, heaven or to a horrible place, Hell. I don't believe in either one of them. From your perspective Kansasdad, I understand where you're coming from. The non-believers can be considered as "lost" or "unsaved", and the believers are supposed to be able to understand that the non-believers will all suffer an eternity of torment. I guess from that view it could be a bit uncomfortable. However, that would imply that if a non-believer were to convert for this reason, it would merely be to please the believer. I don't live my life to please others so to me, I wouldn't believe. This seems to be yet again, another example of the pushiness. You mean well, however, from my perspective, it's the classic pushy and condemning views.

Kansasdad, I suggest you read Rufus of Cyrene's post:

"is that it is one's actions, not one's words that bring people to Christ. Bible-thumping doesn't work; sprinkling a conversation with "Christian" aphorisms or charismatic jargon doesn't work; the Crusades showed us that giving someone the choice of converting or dying doesn't work"

The whole Bible-thumping and other things Rufus of Cyrene points out don't work. I've had many Christians do this and, for some non-believers, it may work but for me, it won't do anything. In fact, the bible thumping is one of the things that led me away from christianity.

He he he... He called me a Bible thumper You really don't know me very well do you. OK, now lets take a look at my post. Do you see even one verse of scripture, one quote from the bible. I gave you an honest prespective in layman's terms........How is that Bible thumping again...... I must have missed that lesson.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[OneLight]

From my perspective, I really don't care about whether I go to a nirvana, heaven or to a horrible place, Hell. I don't believe in either one of them. From your perspective Kansasdad, I understand where you're coming from. The non-believers can be considered as "lost" or "unsaved", and the believers are supposed to be able to understand that the non-believers will all suffer an eternity of torment. I guess from that view it could be a bit uncomfortable. However, that would imply that if a non-believer were to convert for this reason, it would merely be to please the believer. I don't live my life to please others so to me, I wouldn't believe. This seems to be yet again, another example of the pushiness. You mean well, however, from my perspective, it's the classic pushy and condemning views.

Kansasdad, I suggest you read Rufus of Cyrene's post:

"is that it is one's actions, not one's words that bring people to Christ. Bible-thumping doesn't work; sprinkling a conversation with "Christian" aphorisms or charismatic jargon doesn't work; the Crusades showed us that giving someone the choice of converting or dying doesn't work"

The whole Bible-thumping and other things Rufus of Cyrene points out don't work. I've had many Christians do this and, for some non-believers, it may work but for me, it won't do anything. In fact, the bible thumping is one of the things that led me away from christianity.

He he he... He called me a Bible thumper You really don't know me very well do you. OK, now lets take a look at my post. Do you see even one verse of scripture, one quote from the bible. I gave you an honest prespective in layman's terms........How is that Bible thumping again...... I must have missed that lesson.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Zer0 got banned. Hope you are not waiting for a reply, Brother.

[Gerioke]

I don't believe that the world was ever in sync with the god of the bible. If it were, why would he constantly seek to destroy what he created?

Read Genisis

[NickyLouse]

I don't mean to say ALL Christians are pushy and condemning. I have a few Christian friends and they aren't. I guess some feel like they are helping, however, to the other person, it seems pushy. I don't think some of them want to be pushy but rather helpful.

Christians are not always evangelistic. An evangelist will tell you what the Bible says. Other Christians may use their kindness to befriend you.

When you encounter an evangelist, you will be shown a mirror called the Law. The Law offends us as we see ourselves for who we are. We have all sinned against God and when we see ourselves in the correct light we see the most disgusting thing we ever imagined. Many times we will lash out at the one who holds the mirror up. The fault lies in neither the mirror nor the one who holds it up for us to see. The Law is not meant to save us, but without it we cannot appreciate that which does save us. That is the other thing an evangelist will show you: grace. Biblical grace is the unmerited gift of God, who pardons sinners who will place their faith in Jesus. A sinner who sees no need for a Savior will not appreciate God's grace. So the gift is of no value unless the need for it is clear.

Paul wrote that if not for the Law, he would not have known what it was to covet. But what the Law is powerless to do (namely to deliver you from the wrath of God, which is provoked by sin), grace sets us free as we are justified (that is, declared to be without guilt) through faith.

So if you encounter a Christian who seems pushy, realize that it is for your benefit that they are such. And if you encounter a Christian who is sweet and kindly, also realize that it is for your benefit.

Edited June 3, 2008 by NickyLouse