The ten nations that the Anti-christ will rule?

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm not asking you to receive what I covered. It's between you and The Lord how you intepret Isaiah. But please show me what "rules of literary analysis" have been broken.

I am speaking of the rules that pertain to using parallel passages. We have too many people who trying compare passages simply because they see similar terms or phraseology and ignore issues like like audience, purpose and occsaion, and that is exactly what you are doing here.

If you have a passage from Isaiah or any other OT prophet that is speaking expressly of Jerusalem with respect to the same time reference as is found in Revelation 18, and refers to Jerusalem as the" whore" or "mystery Babylon" then you have the grounds for making a case that whore of Rev. 18 is Jerusalem. Outside of that, you are simply wrong in your attempt to make such an erroneous connection.

Not all of Isaiah 1 pertains to Jerusalem prior to the king of Babylon coming.

Wrong. ALL of Isaiah 1 is speaking to Jersualem prior to the Babylonian exile. There is not ONE shred of hermeneutic justification to claim otherwise.

He speaks of Jeruslaem's impending destruction, but promises restoration if she repents. Jersualem did not repent and the destruction promised came. There is nothing in Isaiah 1 to suggest that any other time reference is being referred to in this chapter.

Futhermore, you have not ONE direct statement from the book of Revelation itself that mystery Babylon is Jerusalem. You are trying to force the Bible to mold around your opinion, and that is simply an improper use of Scripture.

Are you saying that the spiritual metaphor of Sodom which God used in Isaiah to point to fallen Jerusalem isn't the same type spiritual Sodom metaphor used in Rev.11:8 by Christ Jesus? Will you say that about 'the day of The Lord' phrase also?

Those kinds of phrases and metaphors have to be examined with respect to the context, purpose, audience and occasion to which the author would have writing. It is insufficient and most erroneious to just run through the Bible and assume that similar phraseology in different passages necessarily links those passages together. The use of the metaphor of Sodom in in the OT to refer to Jerusalem may not have been used for the same reason in Revelation 11. The intent of the author is the overriding factor in the use of figurative devices and it is inappropriate for you or anyone else to assign subjective values to those metaphors in order to impose a dubious assertion such as what you are asserting with respect to Rev. 10 and Jersualem.

So then again, God referring to fallen Jerusalem in Isaiah with the idea of spiritual Sodom has nothing to do with that same symbolic reference in Revelation 11:8? Is that what you're saying? I assume you can mark a timeline. Where did that symbolic reference to Jerusalem as spiritual Sodom in Rev.11:8 first appear in The Bible? The harlot metaphor used by our Lord Jesus in His Book of Revelation, where did that symbolic reference first appear in Scripture? And why was it first used?

Again, you are mishandling the metphor. The simple use of that metaphor does not automatically connect EVERY passage where it is employed. If we approached newpapers, cookbooks and biographical novels with the same methods you employ with respect to the Bible, we would be an extremely confused society.

For the city of righteousness idea is further covered in the latter Books of Isaiah, which is of the time after Christ returns to setup His Righteousness there. Rev.21:27 is also a parallel to that future time in Jerusalem.

Isaiah does prophesy about Jersualem in the future, He does speak of a future time when Israel will be fully restored.

Once all of God's OT prophets are read, one should easily understand there's a lot written about latter day events PRIOR to Christ's restoring the kingdom to Israel.

Yes, that is true.

The way I understand what you've said, is that we should disregard Scripture in the OT prophets of events to occur prior to Christ's coming, treating those parts like dead history, and instead go straight to the parts about restoring Israel's kingdom.

No, what I am saying is that last days prophecies are last days prophecies. We have to be able to know the difference between what God said to Israel prior to the Babylonian exile and what he says prior to end of age. You are ignoring that distinction in order to forward his idea that Jersualem is the whore of Babylon. You are using OT passages that apply ONLY to Israel prior to the Babylonian exile and are trying to carry them over into Revelation 18 and you simply do not have the hermeneutic justification for doing so.

How is the scenario in Isaiah different than the one in Revelation per this...

Rev 6:15-17

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

(KJV)

Isa 2:19

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

(KJV)

It is entirelly different. Revelation 6 is not limited in scope to Jerusalem and Judah and speaking in more global terms, while the entire book of Isaiah is only written to Jersualem and Judah.

Secondly, as I have already said, you have to look at the purpose/intent of the author, the audience and occasion, which are all variables that simply cannot be factored out of our understanding of these passages. Isaiah 2:19 employs hyperbole, whereas Rev. 6: 15-17 does not. In other words, Rev. 6: 15-17 is not a fulfillment of Isa. 2:19.

[Celt]

If you have a passage from Isaiah or any other OT prophet that is speaking expressly of Jerusalem with respect to the same time reference as is found in Revelation 18, and refers to Jerusalem as the" whore" or "mystery Babylon" then you have the grounds for making a case that whore of Rev. 18 is Jerusalem. Outside of that, you are simply wrong in your attempt to make such an erroneous connection

That would mean Revelation 17-18 would have to be past history for that rule to be valid. There is no such rule in God's Word that corners His Word in such a way. If our Heavenly Father made an OT comparison to Jerusalem as Sodom in the spiritual sense per past history, and that kind of reference is used again for Jerusalem at a later date, it simply means to look for a similiar fulfillment as a type in the future. The rule for establishing that is what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 10:11 when he was outlining Old Testament events of history in his day, and saying they serve as "ensamples" for events yet future (the word "ensamples" refers to prophetic types.) That supercedes any parallel rule man might make up to serve a theological historicist or preterist view of Revelation 17-18. And that's what the rule you mention does exactly; it overrides what Paul taught in 1 Cor.10:11 and instead serves a historicist or preterist view of Revelation.

Isa 1:21

21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

(KJV)

What about that Isaiah 1 reference to Jereusalem as a "harlot" when it was in a fallen state? Or the following reference to fallen Jerusalem by God through the prophet Jeremiah...

Jer 4:30-31

30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

(KJV)

That was a reference to Jerusalem also in a fallen state in Jeremiah's day when God sent the king of Babylon upon her. The symbolic references to a whore decked in crimson, ornaments of gold, and even facial makeup of a harlot, and lovers are used.

Rev 17:3-4

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

(KJV)

Then later Jer.51:7 has a similiar reference to that Rev.17 whore, but it was about historical Babylon. Why would God give those types for the harlot, first pointing to Jerusalem in a fallen state in the early chapters of Jeremiah, and then use them again in the latter chapters for Babylon? When Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon took Jerusalem, the city of Jerusalem and Judea became part of his kingdom of Babylon. It will be likewise with the city of Jerusalem in the last days, as it is to go into captivity to Babylon again.

Rev 17:6

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

(KJV)

Matt 23:37-38

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

(KJV)

The reason why that Rev.17:6 reference to history of killing the prophets also points to Jerusalem, is because that's what happened in Jerusalem when it fell away from God into spiritual harlotry. When The Lord Jesus Christ was crucified upon a cross by the insistence of the Jewish Pharisees and chief priests, that showed the height of it.

Christ is referring to Jerusalem about the Babylon harlot of Rev.17-18, because Jerusalem in a fallen spiritual state is in alliance with Babylon. Thus God's "two witnesses" who are to be killed in Jerusalem with their dead bodies laying in the street is another pointer to Jerusalem as that whore of Revelation with the blood of the prophets on her hands, not to mention the passage about the Gentiles being given to tread her courts for 42 months. Those are references for future events, and the pattern God has already established in His Word from events that happpened in Jerusalem's history.

Those symbolic references weren't made up by me, they were used by God in His Word concerning past history about Jerusalem in a fallen state away from Him. And Christ used them again in Revelation. He made those references in Revelation, I didn't. Now if you want to deny those references He gave there about fallen Jerusalem for the last days, then that's up to you.

[BlindSeeker]

If the woman which rides the 8th beast is Jerusalem then what/who do you feel is the 8th beast?

Why isn't the woman on the 8th beast when it first appears in Rev 13:1?

[Celt]

If the woman which rides the 8th beast is Jerusalem then what/who do you feel is the 8th beast?

Why isn't the woman on the 8th beast when it first appears in Rev 13:1?

Rev.13 must first be realized that it's speaking of two different 'beasts'. The one in Rev.13:1 comes up out of the "sea", and is a political beast, because verse 2 compares it the kingdoms in Dan.7. Also, our Lord told us in Rev.17:15 the 'waters' represents peoples, nations, mulitudes and tongues.

But at Rev.13:11 forward, we're given a picture of "another beast", one that comes up out of the 'earth', and it's a particular entity, the "dragon" which gives power to the first beast.

Thereafter, when that word 'beast' occurs in Revelation, one must decide just which 'beast' is the subject, the first one that represents a kingdom over the nations, or the second beast ("another beast") which represents a religious entity, the "dragon". For example...

Rev 17:7-13

7 And the angel said unto me, "Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

That "beast" above is about the one of Rev.13:1, a political system or kingdom over the earth. It's that system, or first beast that is carrying the woman. Then note the change coming next in description...

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Notice this particular beast ascends out of the bottomless pit. The political system beast of Rev.13:1 comes up out of the "sea". So which 'beast' is this one of verse 8? It's the religious beast, the "dragon" entity, for that one comes up out of the earth per Rev.13:11. So the subject has suddenly changed to the "dragon" entity, the "another beast". Now the subject will change again to the first beast...

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

The seven heads are about the first beast. The woman sits upon that particular 'beast', which is a system beast over all nations, peoples, tongues, and multitudes, meaning over the whole earth. In other words, she is head power over the kingdom beast political type of Rev.13:1. That's the beast she is riding. Now another subject change to the "another beast" or entity...

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Now the beast description is back to the idea of an entity, with kings.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Again, this is about the "another beast", the second beast type example, the "dragon", an entity, a king, the same one of verse 8 that ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition. He is "of the seven", meaning of the previous seven kings, and he is the eighth king.

Thus the eighth beast is about that eighth king, and is an entity like the "another beast" or "dragon".

Notice in John's day when Christ gave him the vision, the seventh king was yet to come. That's about the "antichrist" which is to come that John mentioned in 1 John 2:18. Move timeline forward about the eighth.

Dave

[George]

I love reading prophecy threads! I always find them enlightening, not because my viewpoint changes, but because of how many different "interpretations" there can be for passages! It reminds me of what Paul said. "If anyone thinks he knows anything -- he knows NOTHING as he ought to know!"

Just a few notes that I throw out there. First point, remember when Revelation was penned. Most Church historians point to the authorship taking place after 90 AD -- so 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD).

Another point to keep in mind, if you believe the AntiChrist is coming (1 John 2:18), as he's coming to deceive the Jews (John 5:43) [as well as the world], then try to place yourself in the Jewish mindset: What are the Jews expecting in their Messiah? There's a reason why the Jews initially rejected Jesus -- it's because He didn't fit their "theology".

So let's throw a hypothetical question and let's see where it leads us in our reasoning. Let's suppose, the Antichrist is coming, and he's going to initially deceive the Jews then whatever the Jews were expecting in the 1st century, we can expect they would look for this "type" in the future.

In the 1st century the Jews expected: 1. The Messiah was going to re-establish the Kingdom of David. 2. He was going to deal with the enemies of the Jews (at the time Rome) 3. Bring a season of peace and tranquility in this new Kingdom.

Since Jesus did not fulfill this His 1st coming (but this is fulfilled in the 2nd coming), then in this hypothetical scenario we can expect the Antichrist to try and fit this 1st century theological mindset.

IF this is true, then one thing is certain -- the AC will not be a muslim. The Jews would never accept a Muslim to rule over them. But if the AC were to war against the enemies of the Jews and defeat them, then they would certainly embrace him. So perhaps in our reasoning, we should explore the possibility that the Antichrist will wage war against Islam, especially in light of Daniel 11.

Come now, and let us reason together...and remember in discussing any topics, let's not allow the enemy a foothold of pride to enter! Let's learn from one another in true humility, realizing we don't fully understand the end times.

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

[Guest]

[BlindSeeker]

If the woman which rides the 8th beast is Jerusalem then what/who do you feel is the 8th beast?

Why isn't the woman on the 8th beast when it first appears in Rev 13:1?

Rev.13 must first be realized that it's speaking of two different 'beasts'. The one in Rev.13:1 comes up out of the "sea", and is a political beast, because verse 2 compares it the kingdoms in Dan.7. Also, our Lord told us in Rev.17:15 the 'waters' represents peoples, nations, mulitudes and tongues.

But at Rev.13:11 forward, we're given a picture of "another beast", one that comes up out of the 'earth', and it's a particular entity, the "dragon" which gives power to the first beast.

Thereafter, when that word 'beast' occurs in Revelation, one must decide just which 'beast' is the subject, the first one that represents a kingdom over the nations, or the second beast ("another beast") which represents a religious entity, the "dragon". For example...

Rev 17:7-13

7 And the angel said unto me, "Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

That "beast" above is about the one of Rev.13:1, a political system or kingdom over the earth. It's that system, or first beast that is carrying the woman. Then note the change coming next in description...

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Notice this particular beast ascends out of the bottomless pit. The political system beast of Rev.13:1 comes up out of the "sea". So which 'beast' is this one of verse 8? It's the religious beast, the "dragon" entity, for that one comes up out of the earth per Rev.13:11. So the subject has suddenly changed to the "dragon" entity, the "another beast". Now the subject will change again to the first beast...

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

The seven heads are about the first beast. The woman sits upon that particular 'beast', which is a system beast over all nations, peoples, tongues, and multitudes, meaning over the whole earth. In other words, she is head power over the kingdom beast political type of Rev.13:1. That's the beast she is riding. Now another subject change to the "another beast" or entity...

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Now the beast description is back to the idea of an entity, with kings.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Again, this is about the "another beast", the second beast type example, the "dragon", an entity, a king, the same one of verse 8 that ascends out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition. He is "of the seven", meaning of the previous seven kings, and he is the eighth king.

Thus the eighth beast is about that eighth king, and is an entity like the "another beast" or "dragon".

Notice in John's day when Christ gave him the vision, the seventh king was yet to come. That's about the "antichrist" which is to come that John mentioned in 1 John 2:18. Move timeline forward about the eighth.

Dave

Question 2 again -The woman is riding the the seven headed , ten horns and crowns beast in 17 and is not on the same beast in 13 . . . why?

If the first beast is "a political system or kingdom" why then would the second beast which "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him" be "a religious entity?" Sounds more like an individual ruler over a nation than a religious leader.

The first beast coming up out of the water does indeed represent a nation - because as the scriptures say, "waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." To me it sounds more like a land where people from all over the world has migrated . . .

The second beast, in 13:11 comes up out of the earth, not a bottomless pit. The imagery (to me) denotes an individual man (for man, singular, came from the dust of the earth). To me this man, or a position held by a succession of men, has two horns as a lamb which makes him appear to be for peace, but when he speaks it is to justify the agenda of the dragon . . . war and destruction.

This eighth beast is either a direct descendant of the seventh beast, or it is a conglomeration of them all

[George]

Monkey wrenches -- anyone seen a monkey?

Most theologians would place the phrase "it is the last time" as the time frame until His return. The word time here in greek is hora where we get the word hour. This is another place where John uses the same greek word -- hora.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So the phrase -- it is the last time could easily be translated -- it is the last hour. This is the same passage according to the Young's Literal Translation.

1 John 2:18 Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many--whence we know that it is the last hour;

I hope that answers your question.

How is this statement reconciled with the current forward-looking pre-trib scheme?

By the way, I'm just answering your question without endorsing any particular end-time position.

God bless,

George

[CU4EVER]

Daniels vision of end times interpreted reveals many details about the Anti-christ and the beast, and also the Lord who will conquer all the foes of God. Notice that the forth beast, which I believe will be the forth in succession,(Daniel 7:23-25) and is the ten toes of the statue that Nebuchadnezzar seen in his dream, which Daniel interpretated.( In Daniel 2:40-43) also in the book of Revelations chapter 17: 12 also speaks of the ten nations from which the anti-christ will rise. Many believe that the European Union will be the Revived Roman Empire, But in any event the Anti-christ will gain power over ever kindred and tonge and nation. For forty two months, then the Lord of Lords will return and set up an everlasting kingdom. Rev 13:7

What is your interputation of these events? is this an accurate interputation of the scriptures listed?

side note:I don't believe that the church will go through the seven year tribulation, but will be raptured out of this world, and return with Christ when He sets up His kingdom on earth for the thousand year reign.

Daniel 2:

36This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

[CU4EVER]

Daniels vision of end times interpreted reveals many details about the Anti-christ and the beast, and also the Lord who will conquer all the foes of God. Notice that the forth beast, which I believe will be the forth in succession,(Daniel 7:23-25) and is the ten toes of the statue that Nebuchadnezzar seen in his dream, which Daniel interpretated.( In Daniel 2:40-43) also in the book of Revelations chapter 17: 12 also speaks of the ten nations from which the anti-christ will rise. Many believe that the European Union will be the Revived Roman Empire, But in any event the Anti-christ will gain power over ever kindred and tonge and nation. For forty two months, then the Lord of Lords will return and set up an everlasting kingdom. Rev 13:7

What is your interputation of these events? is this an accurate interputation of the scriptures listed?

side note:I don't believe that the church will go through the seven year tribulation, but will be raptured out of this world, and return with Christ when He sets up His kingdom on earth for the thousand year reign.

Daniel 2:

36This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.