The ten nations that the Anti-christ will rule?

[George]

It's an interesting viewpoint. Personally I see the temple as a symbolic temple of the body of believers. The difference between the INNER court and the OUTER court was simply the act of worship -- are they truly worshipping God in Spirit and in truth? This is the difference and the outer court is under seige the exact same 3 1/2 years you refer to as in the witnesses. Of course, it's prophecy so we'll find out in the future. I do see a connection between the two witnesses and the Zechariah 4 passage.

This is Matthew Henry's perspective of Rev. 11:1-2:

This prophetical passage about measuring the temple seems to refer to Ezekiel's vision. The design of this measuring seems to be the preservation of the church in times of public danger; or for its trial, or for its reformation. The worshippers must be measured; whether they make God's glory their end, and his word their rule, in all their acts of worship. Those in the outer court, worship in a false manner, or with dissembling hearts, and will be found among his enemies. God will have a temple and an altar in the world, till the end of time. He looks strictly to his temple. The holy city, the visible church, is trodden under foot; is filled with idolaters, infidels, and hypocrites. But the desolations of the church are limited, and she shall be delivered out of all her troubles.

I appreciate your perspective Blindseeker, and I appreciate your insight -- we simply disagree.

God bless,

George

[CU4EVER]

It's an interesting viewpoint. Personally I see the temple as a symbolic temple of the body of believers. The difference between the INNER court and the OUTER court was simply the act of worship -- are they truly worshipping God in Spirit and in truth? This is the difference and the outer court is under seige the exact same 3 1/2 years you refer to as in the witnesses. Of course, it's prophecy so we'll find out in the future. I do see a connection between the two witnesses and the Zechariah 4 passage.

This is Matthew Henry's perspective of Rev. 11:1-2:

This prophetical passage about measuring the temple seems to refer to Ezekiel's vision. The design of this measuring seems to be the preservation of the church in times of public danger; or for its trial, or for its reformation. The worshippers must be measured; whether they make God's glory their end, and his word their rule, in all their acts of worship. Those in the outer court, worship in a false manner, or with dissembling hearts, and will be found among his enemies. God will have a temple and an altar in the world, till the end of time. He looks strictly to his temple. The holy city, the visible church, is trodden under foot; is filled with idolaters, infidels, and hypocrites. But the desolations of the church are limited, and she shall be delivered out of all her troubles.

I appreciate your perspective Blindseeker, and I appreciate your insight -- we simply disagree.

God bless,

George

I believe that God showed John a future Temple that is yet to be built. So my belief is yet different. The analogy that Blindseeker gave about the rider on the white horse with the bow made me think.

[George]

I believe that God showed John a future Temple that is yet to be built. So my belief is yet different. The analogy that Blindseeker gave about the rider on the white horse with the bow made me think.

I agree that a literal temple will be made, since the Lord talks about the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24 -- as I look at this passage in Daniel, it reminds me of a future abomination similar to Antiochous Ephimines (sp.) during the time of the Macabbean revolt.

While I agree with this perspective, the passage in Revelation doesn't appear to me as a literal temple, but rather a spiritual temple -- because of the fact it says to measure the "worshipers".

The phrase in Revelation 11:1, I believe should be focused on is -- Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. In the Young's Literal Translation it says -- Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it;

In Greek, its an extremely reverent type of worship. For example, it's the same word used in John 4:23 -- But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

It seems to indicate that the "outer court" is trampled for 42 months (3 1/2 years), while the "inner court" has been measured by God and left protected.

Of course, that's just my understanding of the passage and it shouldn't be considered "gospel" since I'm hardly perfect in my understanding of prophecy!

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

[BlindSeeker]

It's an interesting viewpoint. Personally I see the temple as a symbolic temple of the body of believers. The difference between the INNER court and the OUTER court was simply the act of worship -- are they truly worshipping God in Spirit and in truth? This is the difference and the outer court is under seige the exact same 3 1/2 years you refer to as in the witnesses. Of course, it's prophecy so we'll find out in the future. . .

Greetings Brother George,

If it is indeed in the future we

[Celt]

By CU4EVER

I believe that God showed John a future Temple that is yet to be built. So my belief is yet different. The analogy that Blindseeker gave about the rider on the white horse with the bow made me think.

There's still differences between the white horse rider of Rev.6:2 and our Lord Jesus on a white horse in Rev.19. In Rev.19 Christ has many crowns (diadems), and a two-edged sword symbol is given, whereas the rider in Rev.6:2 has bow of simple fabric and a crown (stephanos) that can also be translated as one of twine or a wreath. It points to the rider in Rev.6:2 as a lesser one and not Christ Jesus. I think the different colored horses in Zech.6 also have a prophetic part in those of Rev.6. So I wouldn't be swayed by Blindseeker's view of that just yet.

CU4EVER, you are very correct about Matthew 24, that many events about Christ's second coming are given within that chapter pointing to the very last days. Those who choose men's theological categories as the measure of prophecy instead can simply deny those verses and stay in darkness as far as I'm concerned.

Likewise with the idea that John was given to write the Book of Revelation prior to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. The tradition that has been long held by Christianity when John wrote it was the time he was in exile on the Isle of Patmos during the reign of the Roman Emperor Domitian. Domitian's reign was between 81-96 A.D.

The point that no "abomination of desolation" was setup in the Temple when the Roman general Titus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. is also important. Instead the Jews baracaded themselves inside the Temple and they set it on fire to prevent the Romans from entering into the inner sanctuary. That did not fit the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel which our Lord Jesus quoted in Matt.24. It means to keep looking for the fulfillment of it.

And per our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24, where was He pointing to with the fulfillment of that "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel? To Jerusalem, and not Rome.

Edited June 28, 2008 by Celt

[Celt]

As for a time of future "great tribulation" per Scripture, that is not a mythical idea. I don't adhere to the theological categorizations of men, like Historicism, Preterism, Futurism, etc., except maybe the label of post-tribulationalist. I see too many who latch onto those theological categories denying a lot of Scripture witnesses just because it doesn't fit their chosen categorical system of belief, and that's the way of confusion.

Dan 9:24-27

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(KJV)

In that Dan.9:27 verse a 7 year period is given. That's what that "one week" is equal to per the 70 weeks prophecy.

That "covenant" of Dan.9:27 is not any covenant (league) that Christ Jesus made. Nor was the Old Covenant for any such 7 year period either.

The "midst of the week" means one-half of the symbolic 7 years. That is three and one half years, or 1260 days, or 42 months, or a time, times and a half like Dan.12:7 shows, and Rev.12:14 shows. That time period has nothing to do with Christ's first coming, nor the Roman general Titus who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

The requirements of Dan.9:24 for the end of the whole seventy weeks time is that "everlasting righteousness" and "to anoint the most Holy" must come. Is that the "everlasting righteousness" of men? No. Is it of some king of this world? Again no. Who is it then only that can bring in "everlasting righteousness" to Jerusalem, AND anoint the most Holy? Jesus Christ only, and at His return, His second coming, for as written, "... Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:" (Zech.6:12).

But before Christ's second coming, a false one must first come and confirm a covenant (league) for half of that 7 year period in Jerusalem, and be given power over the holy people for that same period of Dan.7:25; 8:13-14; 12:7; 12:11; Rev.11:2; Rev.12:6; 12:14; Rev.13:5.

We are also told what is to happen after the end of that time, times and a half period when a false one comes to Jerusalem and persecutes God's people...

Dan 7:25-27

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

(KJV)

At the end of that, the kingdom of that false one is to be given to the saints of The Most High, and it is an everlasting kingdom with all dominions serving Him (Christ Jesus The BRANCH).

Dan 7:21-23

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

(KJV)

One of the ways that fourth beast is different, is that it will encompass the 'whole earth', and not just parts like the previous beast kingdoms. That little horn that came up among the others is to persecute God's people all the way until the coming of "the Ancient of days" (Christ's second coming).

Dan 12:1-4

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

(KJV)

In Rev.12:7 is a time when Michael stands up, fighting in Heaven against Satan and his angels. We are told at that time is when Satan and his angels are cast to this earth out of Heaven, no more place in Heaven found for them. We are also told a loud voice in Heaven will declare God's kingdom, salvation and the power of His Christ when that happens. It means that war in Heaven between Michael and Satan was not about Satan's first rebellion and fall, but for the last days. We are also told in Rev.12:9 that the "dragon" is but another title for Satan himself.

That is the "great tribulation" timing our Lord Jesus was talking about in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. With that war in Heaven prophecy it points to that great time of trouble starting on earth because of Satan and his angels being booted down to this earth! That's who that vile person will be, the "dragon", "that old serpent", the "devil" himself come to earth in the last days.

[CU4EVER]

By CU4EVER

I believe that God showed John a future Temple that is yet to be built. So my belief is yet different. The analogy that Blindseeker gave about the rider on the white horse with the bow made me think.

There's still differences between the white horse rider of Rev.6:2 and our Lord Jesus on a white horse in Rev.19. In Rev.19 Christ has many crowns (diadems), and a two-edged sword symbol is given, whereas the rider in Rev.6:2 has bow of simple fabric and a crown (stephanos) that can also be translated as one of twine or a wreath. It points to the rider in Rev.6:2 as a lesser one and not Christ Jesus. I think the different colored horses in Zech.6 also have a prophetic part in those of Rev.6. So I wouldn't be swayed by Blindseeker's view of that just yet.

CU4EVER, you are very correct about Matthew 24, that many events about Christ's second coming are given within that chapter pointing to the very last days. Those who choose men's theological categories as the measure of prophecy instead can simply deny those verses and stay in darkness as far as I'm concerned.

Likewise with the idea that John was given to write the Book of Revelation prior to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. The tradition that has been long held by Christianity when John wrote it was the time he was in exile on the Isle of Patmos during the reign of the Roman Emperor Domitian. Domitian's reign was between 81-96 A.D.

The point that no "abomination of desolation" was setup in the Temple when the Roman general Titus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. is also important. Instead the Jews baracaded themselves inside the Temple and they set it on fire to prevent the Romans from entering into the inner sanctuary. That did not fit the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel which our Lord Jesus quoted in Matt.24. It means to keep looking for the fulfillment of it.

And per our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24, where was He pointing to with the fulfillment of that "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel? To Jerusalem, and not Rome.

Hello Celt. I'm pretty new and just trying to understand how these things work. No, I am not changing my beliefs. What I learned is that the rider on the white horse may may not only use diplomatic methods to achieve his goals, but may in fact have weapons at his disposal to conquer (to take by force) with.

The next thing that I considered was that in Revelation 1:12-18, John describes Jesus Christ in all of His glory when he sees Him and again in Revelaiton 19:11-16. John really seems to be in awe as he describes this rider, who is Jesus Christ. He describes the Lamb in Revelaiton 5:6-10.

John really does not describe the rider in Revelaiton 6. He does not seem to be in awe. It may be that he is still focused on the Lamb as the rider leaves.

And I wonder about something else. God is love, the Word tells us so. Would the Lamb of God send the Gospel out to take whoever it comes in contact with by force? I know what man has done with the Gospel but what about the Lamb of God?

This is pretty cool. A tough topic and losts of views. I hope to learn a lot. It's not every day that you get to have this kind of communication about prophetic events.

[CU4EVER]

I believe that God showed John a future Temple that is yet to be built. So my belief is yet different. The analogy that Blindseeker gave about the rider on the white horse with the bow made me think.

I agree that a literal temple will be made, since the Lord talks about the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24 -- as I look at this passage in Daniel, it reminds me of a future abomination similar to Antiochous Ephimines (sp.) during the time of the Macabbean revolt.

While I agree with this perspective, the passage in Revelation doesn't appear to me as a literal temple, but rather a spiritual temple -- because of the fact it says to measure the "worshipers".

The phrase in Revelation 11:1, I believe should be focused on is -- Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. In the Young's Literal Translation it says -- Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it;

In Greek, its an extremely reverent type of worship. For example, it's the same word used in John 4:23 -- But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

It seems to indicate that the "outer court" is trampled for 42 months (3 1/2 years), while the "inner court" has been measured by God and left protected.

Of course, that's just my understanding of the passage and it shouldn't be considered "gospel" since I'm hardly perfect in my understanding of prophecy!

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

It is great that there is a place where we can share our views. I replied to this post after I replied to a post by Celt. I made a few comments there.

[Celt]

While I agree with this perspective, the passage in Revelation doesn't appear to me as a literal temple, but rather a spiritual temple -- because of the fact it says to measure the "worshipers".

The phrase in Revelation 11:1, I believe should be focused on is -- Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. In the Young's Literal Translation it says -- Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it;

In Greek, its an extremely reverent type of worship. For example, it's the same word used in John 4:23 -- But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

It seems to indicate that the "outer court" is trampled for 42 months (3 1/2 years), while the "inner court" has been measured by God and left protected.

George

Sounds right. But isn't there more to look at there?

Rev 11:1-10

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

A reed "like unto a rod"? Ever read the analogy about Egypt as a bruised reed? God rebuked Israel when they relied on Egypt for help, saying they relied upon the 'staff' of a broken or bruised reed. But when one was told to take a reed and measure, most often Scripture doesn't mention a staff or rod in relation to a measuring reed (like in Ezek.40). It's usually only a reed or a measuring line. The idea of a staff or rod is about power or strength in God's Word. It can mean a staff for walking, or as a weapon, or a sceptre. We can count on there being a reason why that measuring reed is being likened to 'a rod'. Per God's Word, they are two different descriptions.

In relation to what's going on in the next verses of that Rev.11 chapter, how would that "like unto a rod" be meant? Another important reminder, is that the Rev.9 through 11 chapters cover three 'woe' periods, and that Rev.11 is still on 2nd woe events. Because of all that, I don't see this measuring reed "like unto a rod" in a positive sense. I see it more as a rod of correction compared to God's true measuring reed. If this temple represented Christ's Body then there would be no separation of Gentiles in the outer court doing any treading for 42 months. The true Body of Christ cannot be divided as such.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

If those two verses were about the Holy City in Heaven, then what are those Gentiles doing there treading it under foot for 42 months? Likewise, if it means on earth with Christ there, still what are those doing treading upon the outer courts of the Holy City for 42 months?

There's plenty evidence here that this is about a literal temple in Jerusalem for the last days, and especially that it's a mock temple. And the reed being used to measure it also doubles as a staff or rod of correction.

3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Is that not another sign about that temple there being a false temple, and the worshiping going on there also as false worship? If not, then what reason does God send His two witnesses there to prophesy, and "in sackcloth"? Sackcloth and ashes was an Old Testament sign of mourning.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Why would God give His two witnesses such power in that situation if true worship was going on there? The commission God's two witnesses are given there parallel the time of Elijah. What was going on in Jerusalem in Elijah's day? Why did Elijah run for his life to hide from Jezebel and king Ahab?

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Their commission also parallels the time of Moses when God worked the plagues upon Egypt, using the 'staff' of Moses.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Obviously, the type of worship going on there is false, otherwise this beast that 'ascends' out of the bottomless pit wouldn't feel need to come and protect it against the testimony given there by God's "two witnesses".

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

It's also obvious that takes place in Jerusalem on earth.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

(KJV)

No question who the enemies of God's "two witnesses" are that are given to prophesy for 1260 days in Jerusalem and then be murdered. What enemy of God would have that kind of influence and deception upon those nations to do that?

Rev 11:11-15

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Why would those at Jerusalem then have fear of that if they were doing true worship?

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

(KJV)

The meaning of that measuring reed likened to a rod (staff) becomes clear once the flow of the chapter is allowed. There's no Biblical support for slicing those Rev.11:1-2 verses out of the context of the rest of that chapter about God's two witnesses in Jerusalem for the last days just prior to Christ's second coming.

[BlindSeeker]

By CU4EVER

I believe that God showed John a future Temple that is yet to be built. So my belief is yet different. The analogy that Blindseeker gave about the rider on the white horse with the bow made me think.

There's still differences between the white horse rider of Rev.6:2 and our Lord Jesus on a white horse in Rev.19. In Rev.19 Christ has many crowns (diadems), and a two-edged sword symbol is given, whereas the rider in Rev.6:2 has bow of simple fabric and a crown (stephanos) that can also be translated as one of twine or a wreath. It points to the rider in Rev.6:2 as a lesser one and not Christ Jesus.

Probably not unlike the one that was given to Him to wear when He was glorified on the cross.

Re 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown <stephanos> was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Mt 27:29 And when they had platted a crown <stephanos> of thorns, they put it upon His head, and a reed in His right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!

Mr 15:17 And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown <stephanos> of thorns, and put it about His head,

Joh 19:2 And the soldiers platted a crown <stephanos> of thorns, and put it on His head, and they put on Him a purple robe,

Joh 19:5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown <stephanos> of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!

To me, it would be more than appropriate for Jesus to return wearing in honor the crown given to mock Him as He delivered their judgment and commission His servants to go forth and conquer with the power of the Gospel.

It also lends itself that the Captain of our salvation would send for His sons as arrows . . . in light of Holy Writ.

Heb 2:10 For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Ps 127:4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.

5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

Furthermore, it is also the same Greek word used in all these verses and translated