The ten nations that the Anti-christ will rule?

[BlindSeeker]

CU4EVER, you are very correct about Matthew 24, that many events about Christ's second coming are given within that chapter pointing to the very last days. Those who choose men's theological categories as the measure of prophecy instead can simply deny those verses and stay in darkness as far as I'm concerned.

What a revealing statement about yourself in light of scripture. "With what judgment ye judge . . . . "

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I simply will refer readers to my Matthew 24 thread for discussion of that chapter so as not to redirect this thread.

Likewise with the idea that John was given to write the Book of Revelation prior to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. The tradition that has been long held by Christianity when John wrote it was the time he was in exile on the Isle of Patmos during the reign of the Roman Emperor Domitian. Domitian's reign was between 81-96 A.D.

While that is the most popular opinion, popularity doesn

[BlindSeeker]

While I agree with this perspective, the passage in Revelation doesn't appear to me as a literal temple, but rather a spiritual temple -- because of the fact it says to measure the "worshipers".

The phrase in Revelation 11:1, I believe should be focused on is -- Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. In the Young's Literal Translation it says -- Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it;

In Greek, its an extremely reverent type of worship. For example, it's the same word used in John 4:23 -- But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

It seems to indicate that the "outer court" is trampled for 42 months (3 1/2 years), while the "inner court" has been measured by God and left protected.

George

Sounds right. But isn't there more to look at there?

Rev 11:1-10

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

A reed "like unto a rod"? Ever read the analogy about Egypt as a bruised reed? God rebuked Israel when they relied on Egypt for help, saying they relied upon the 'staff' of a broken or bruised reed. But when one was told to take a reed and measure, most often Scripture doesn't mention a staff or rod in relation to a measuring reed (like in Ezek.40). It's usually only a reed or a measuring line. The idea of a staff or rod is about power or strength in God's Word. It can mean a staff for walking, or as a weapon, or a sceptre. We can count on there being a reason why that measuring reed is being likened to 'a rod'. Per God's Word, they are two different descriptions.

In relation to what's going on in the next verses of that Rev.11 chapter, how would that "like unto a rod" be meant? Another important reminder, is that the Rev.9 through 11 chapters cover three 'woe' periods, and that Rev.11 is still on 2nd woe events. Because of all that, I don't see this measuring reed "like unto a rod" in a positive sense. I see it more as a rod of correction compared to God's true measuring reed. . . .

. . . . The meaning of that measuring reed likened to a rod (staff) becomes clear once the flow of the chapter is allowed.

What is clear to some can actually be their blind spot . . .

The word

[Celt]

The idea that Christ at His return in Glory would wear implements set upon Him by the mocker-murderers in place of His vestments mentioned in Rev.19 is a sickening idea. That kind of thought would tend to show just how much the offspring of those mockers still hate Him today, and would probably crucify Him again if they were given half the chance.

The crowns in Rev.19 Christ will wear is Greek 'diadema', not 'stephanos', marking the difference between a real crown of Glory vs. a fake one of thorns.

A crown of thorns is a symbol of Satan's mocking. Satan and his troop are symbolic brambles and thorns, perishable and will burn very quickly at a high temperature.

[Celt]

The Rev.11:1 reference to a measuring reed "like unto a rod" is not in the simple assuming that a reed is a rod.

A reed is a light marsh plant, and not the same as a rod or staff like that of Moses. The reed given to Jesus at His crucifixion was a mocking sign of weakness in contrast to a real sceptre rod of strength.

II Ki 18:21

21 Now, behold, thou trustest upon the staff of this bruised reed, even upon Egypt, on which if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so is Pharaoh king of Egypt unto all that trust on him.

(KJV)

Ezek 29:6-7

6 And all the inhabitants of Egypt shall know that I am the LORD, because they have been a staff of reed to the house of Israel.

7 When they took hold of thee by thy hand, thou didst break, and rend all their shoulder: and when they leaned upon thee, thou brakest, and madest all their loins to be at a stand.

(KJV)

There God makes the analogy of a simple reed being used as a walking staff or rod. The reed is too weak to lean upon. It'll break, whereas a rod like a shepherd's staff will not. Satan and his host represent a reed that tries to liken itself to the power of a shepherd's staff or rod. That's the sense of Rev.11:1. It's in comparison to how God symbolically showed Egypt as a simple reed likened to a staff of strength. When the false Jews handed Jesus a reed at His crucifixion, that's all they ever could hand Him anyway, for any kingdom they try to establish is only a reed 'likened' to a sceptre rod, whereas with Christ The Shepherd is the true Sceptre of strength.

In both Ezek.40 and Rev.21, the measuring reed is not compared to a rod or staff. It's simply a measuring reed. That causes the "reed like unto a rod" in Rev.11:1 to stand out in contrast containing a deeper message.

Obviously, that kind of comparison from God's Word won't fit the kind of comparisons men's theological traditions make outside His Word. But why should anyone care about man's theological comparisons anyway? They're full of confusion by trying to supplant the symbolic meanings God put in His Word with their own meanings.

[Celt]

For those who haven't realized it yet, that "reed like unto a rod" reference that was originally about God's comparison to Egypt as a weak reed only likened to a rod of strength is also why Christ uses Egypt as a symbol for Jerusalem in a a fallen state per the Rev.11:8 verse.

Rev 11:1

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

(KJV)

Rev 11:8

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

(KJV)

[Celt]

Hello Celt. I'm pretty new and just trying to understand how these things work. No, I am not changing my beliefs. What I learned is that the rider on the white horse may may not only use diplomatic methods to achieve his goals, but may in fact have weapons at his disposal to conquer (to take by force) with.

The next thing that I considered was that in Revelation 1:12-18, John describes Jesus Christ in all of His glory when he sees Him and again in Revelaiton 19:11-16. John really seems to be in awe as he describes this rider, who is Jesus Christ. He describes the Lamb in Revelaiton 5:6-10.

John really does not describe the rider in Revelaiton 6. He does not seem to be in awe. It may be that he is still focused on the Lamb as the rider leaves.

Those seals parallel events Christ gave in His Olivet Discourse. He mentioned a time of wars and rumors of wars, a time of famines, earthquakes, and beginnings of sorrows (2nd, 3rd, and 4th seal events). He also covered a time of His servants being delivered to give a Testimony for Him (5th seal event). He also mentioned 6th seal events of stars falling and the heavens being shaken.

But what did Christ mention in His Olivet Discourse that fits the rider on the white horse of the 1st seal? Did our Lord mention one who is to come that is to divide and conquer spiritually? Yes, and that's about the "abomination of desolation", the particular one He said when others come up to you and say something like, "Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there" to believe it not.

Matt 24:23-26

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ, or there'; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, he is in the desert'; go not forth: 'behold, he is in the secret chambers'; believe it not.

(KJV)

At the first of Matt.24 Jesus gives warning that there will come many false Christs. But with that example He was warning of a particular false one, the antichrist of Rev.13:11 forward that is to work great signs and wonders on earth, raining fire (lightening) down on earth in the sight of men to deceive them with.

How powerful will that miracle working on earth be? Our Lord says there that it would be so powerful as to almost deceive His very elect servants, meaning those of His that are sealed against that deception (like those of Rev.7).

What is our Lord Jesus pointing to with that?

He's pointing to a false messiah (antichrist) coming to do supernatural works on the earth to deceive the whole world with. Does that fit the red horse which is about literal war? No. Does that fit the black horse about commerce? No. What about the pale horse? Yes, but the pale horse is also about others like 'beasts'. Only the white horse fits a sole antichrist type conquerer going forth to conquer, and is why he has a bow of cheap fabric and a wreath type crown to simulate the role of Christ.

It must be remembered that the cause of Satan's original fall was that he coveted God's Throne for himself. It was Satan's original job to guard God's Throne per Ezekiel 28. Yet he wants to sit upon God's Throne and be worshipped in place of God. That's what the apostle Paul was also warning us about in the last days, showing he was well familiar with what our Lord Jesus was warning about the "abomination of desolation"...

II Th 2:1-4

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

(KJV)

That role of the antichrist is reserved for him only. It is he that will sit upon a fake throne on this earth in the last days in Jerusalem, and come doing great signs and wonders in the sight of men. Only that level of working could cause the whole world to worship him in place of Christ. This is why we are told of the war between Michael and Satan in Daniel 12:1 and Rev.12:7, the result being the devil and his angels cast down to this earth in the last days to begin a great time of trouble.

That's who the rider on that white horse represents, trying to mimic Christ's return and appearance.

Now some do not want this Message out, especially those among the theological controllers who tell seminary students to stay away from this teaching and preach only 'smooth things'.

[BlindSeeker]

The idea that Christ at His return in Glory would wear implements set upon Him by the mocker-murderers in place of His vestments mentioned in Rev.19 is a sickening idea. That kind of thought would tend to show just how much the offspring of those mockers still hate Him today, and would probably crucify Him again if they were given half the chance.

You are quick with your judgments aren't you.

So are you saying the idea absolutely has no conceivable biblical bases for consideration?

Are you saying that I am an offspring of the mockers of Christ? that I still hate Him today? would crucify him if I had the chance?

Do you stand praying looking up to heaven thanking God your not like "others?"

The crowns in Rev.19 Christ will wear is Greek 'diadema', not 'stephanos', marking the difference between a real crown of Glory vs. a fake one of thorns.

Jesus will wear <diadema> crowns when He returns to judge the nations . . . . nevertheless, this is the only time these <diadema> crowns are mentioned in regards to Christ . . . the other two times the <diadema> crowns are on the seven headed beast . . .

So, what is your response to the other fourteen verse where the <stephanos>

[BlindSeeker]

The Rev.11:1 reference to a measuring reed "like unto a rod" is not in the simple assuming that a reed is a rod.

Why would we want to accept what is simply presented when we can embrace your own

[traveller]

Satan did not want Jesus to die on the cross. He did not place the purple robe on Him. He did not want any crown upon Jesus

[Celt]

For those interested, this thread is still about the idea of ten nations that antichrist will rule in the last days. That's the track I'm still on, although some others here are more determined to keep the pointer towards Rome and the West, or on anything except events in Jerusalem in the last days.

Those who mocked Christ at His crucifxion with the crown of thorns, a reed as a sceptre, a scarlet robe, and then bowed to Him in that state, and then spit on Him, revealed they were against His Kingdom and reign, treating The Lord as a seditionist. But as said, that was ordained to occur so He might suffer for our transgressions, being the Perfect Sacrifice for sin. He became as silent and meek as a Lamb, then.

But His return will not be like a meek Lamb, for at His return to Jerusalem He is to rule with "a rod of iron" (Rev.19:15). That's His Sceptre when He returns. There's a pretty big contrast between a lowly reed and a rod of iron for a royal sceptre. But before His return, a false one will sit in Jerusalem in attempt to mimic Christ's reign and return (Matt.24:15-26; Rev.13:11-18; Rev.11:7; 2 Thess.2:3-4). That false one coming to Jerusalem is who true Christians should be watching for instead of listening to those who are always pointing to Rome and the West.

Instead of our Lord's warning to be watching Jerusalem, what are the Preterists and Historcists, and even some Futurists preaching? They're trying to show that Christ's Kingdom has already come today, and that His reign is different than what Scripture declares about His coming literal earthly reign. That's the main reasoning behind their treating many future prophesies in Revelation like they are already history. A few among hardline Preterism even preach the lie that Christ's second coming already happened during the Apostle's days! Those Preterists also love to use Matt.24 to try and show the "abomination of desolation" is already history too, attempting to link Matt.24 only with the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem.

There is a strategy behind all that, and it's to cause many to refuse God's simple Word as written and instead supplant His Word with the doctrines of men devised to serve a socialist world view for Christianity, and for Jerusalem, so as to get many ready to bow to that beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit to Jerusalem in place of Christ. The temple the orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem plan to build will not be the Temple which Christ The BRANCH will build. This is why Christ showed in the Olivet Discourse that not one stone will be standing on top of another in that area of the temple mount at His return (Mark 13:1-3).

The Zechariah 14 Scripture of Christ's second coming quiets much of those theological views, but only if God's Word is listened to...

Zech 14:1-9

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Both the Apostles Peter and Paul linked the time of Christ's coming with that "day of the LORD" phrase (1 Thess.5; 2 Peter 3:10). It has been a sign of God's vengeance upon the earth since Old Testament times.

Who's "spoil" is our Lord talking about there while pointing specifically to Jerusalem? Will some lie and say that prophecy has nothing to do with Jerusalem?

Note "the city shall be taken" just prior to Christ's return there. Taken by whom? What plan do the nations have for Jerusalem today? The nations today are trying to find some way to bring peace among Israel and Islam who have warred for centuries over the Holy Land. The U.N. has had a hand in that since Israel became a nation again in 1948 by U.N. Charter vote, and even before through the League of Nations organization. Half the city of Jerusalem is already in captivity today, but the city is not yet taken by a false messiah showing up there. That event of 2 Thess.2:3-4, the final "abomination of desolation" is still coming.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.

When Jerusalem is taken by antichrist, and the Gentiles tread the outer court of the temple, and after the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit kills God's "two witnesses" that will appear there, then Christ will return to fight against those nations.

4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

A great earthquake is to occur along with Christ's literal return to Jerusalem at the Mount of Olives (Rev.11:13; 16:18). Because of that a great valley or plain will be formed there, running east to west. Per Rev.11:13, a tenth part of the city will fall, and 7,000 will immediately perish in that event.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.

That event will be for the great gathering of Christ's servants to Jerusalem through that valley.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Christ said in Matthew 24:36 that no man knows the day or hour of His coming. That's a direct link to Christ's Olivet Discourse in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.

(KJV)

There's to be some earth changes with Christ's return there in Jerusalem. Those "living waters" are about the waters that come out from under His earthly Throne in Jerusalem (Ezek.47).