Outcry?

[senerhu]

catsmeow

Now, we see another brutal dictatorship...one that's murdered thousands of men, women and children with mustard gas; one that is so barbaric it steals little children from playgrounds and rapes and murders them...one that has no moral barometer.....yet our soldiers go in and perform many similar acts of immoral and disgraceful acts.

during WWII, the prisoners were considered prisoners of war and were afforded rights under the Geneva convention. But some tactics, that you would probably consider "immoral and disgraceful" were done to garner intelligence which shortened the war.

In Iraq, these prisoners are NOT prisoners of war, they are terrorists. They DO NOT deserve the same treatment. If humiliation leads to intelligence that saves lives, I'm all for it.

Did you read this from kat?

"And let's not forget, that the Jordanian Intelligence Service, which used these same interrogation tactics or harhser, foiled an Al Queda plot to kill between 20 to 80,000 people from chemical weapons that were delivered from Syria via Iraq.

These WMD's were probably part of Saddam's WMD's smuggled to Syria just prior to the war."

ITS APPROPRIATE!

The people most outraged by this are the blame america crowd who would rather see the US defeated or humilated in order to defeat Bush, than see all the good that IS occuring in Iraq today because of Bushs actions.

oh and btw

Doesn't ANYBODY here know? The guys whose up for court martial first has a history of domestic violence and wife abuse?

Well, he's a great choice, huh?

how many priests, ministers and pastors have been accused of rape, child molestation and spousal abuse?...hmmm?

[Catsmeow]

OtherOne: I'm not killing anyone. It's not working on me. I'm on my knees pleading for justice...to the One True Living God who can bring justice.

In this case, I plead for my own enemies...because they haven't had the Light of Truth WE HAVE HAD.

Doesn't anybody comprende?

It's so obvious..where's the discernment here?

These are uneducated herds of people brainwashed by mass hysteria by religious clerics. We expect this kind of behavior.

We're raised and educated in the best schools in a society founded on equal rights and respect for human dignity and THIS HAPPENS?

Let's STOP trying to justify it.

I don't think anyone bothered to read what I posted because surely someone is enlightened even slightly by it.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out...WE'RE held to a higher level.

And Other One ...I've read the books by Fritz Springmeir and all about the Illuminati Bloodlines and the CFR and the Trilateralists and the Masons and the references you made and so on...

I followed that stuff like flies on garbage and I realize there's a ton of conspiracy theories out there...some of which is probably true and some of which is disinformation. We're suseptible to believe everything we hear in the underground.

I distrust most of what I hear.

I DO know that real like human beings made some really STUPID choices and it's created a stain on our whole country.

We are so quick in this country to pass the buck or do the, 'Well they hit me first" complaint, (like kids in the school yard...fighting)...

But WE are responsibe for our own actions...not theirs. WE WERE WRONG>

Man, I don't think there's a soul on this continent that's got the guts to just breath deep and admit, "We were wrong." That's it. That's all we can say...somebody blew it.

I'm not interested in politics or the media or anything else...people..human beings, (even though they be our enemies) we hurt.

We're too busy saving face, though...don't have the guts to just admit, "Okay, we were wrong. What can we do to reconcile this problem?"

[Guest kitkat]

We're in America...our constitution has taught us human rights and individual rights; there's churches on every street corner...we have a foundation to make righteous judgements.

We're SUPPOSED to be an example of righteousness and freedom. What example have we shown? That we're as gross and disgusting as the Western sleeze films they've seen in the underground markets.

catsmeow,

These prisoners are not the type of people that we can sit around the campfire with and sing "Kumbaya" and in doing so, make everything OK.

If we didn't do any of this humiliation and interrogation techniques to a bunch of terrorists, they would be more than happy to just sit there, MAYBE giving us their name, rank and serial number!!!

And in the meantime, while we're being so moral, tens of thousands of people will die.

Now which is worse?

Let's put all this into perspective I think these pictures should be released!

http://www.gopusa.com/news/2004/may/0511_s...m_torture.shtml

Edited May 11, 2004 by kitkat

[Catsmeow]

Senerhu: You haven't been here long enough to know me but I have a reputation of being the biggest BUSH fan here.

I've defended him against a crowd of anti-Bush sorts and I've held my own against Bush bashing.

I'm as conservative as they come.

But I'm also a Christian and I am more concerned with what is morally right.

The Geneva convention allows unpleasant things ...like sleep deprivation, which can be pretty nasty.

It DOES NOT ALLOW prisoners to be stripped naked, photographed and intimidated with threats to show their nudes photos to the public.

Sorry...it's NOT in the Geneva Convention. Show me otherwise.

We are to use what tools are allowed and agreed upon by the Geneva Convention...and honor the rules governed by it.

When we begin to dishonor our own covenants (i.e. Geneva Convention) and dishonor our own promises and word...then how can GOD honor our country?

How?

You think it's okay to break our word? Will God honor us for behaving like animals?

If this was proper behavior would our leaders be scrambling to appologize and CORRECT this disgusting behavior?

Would ANYONE who calls themself a Christian actually endorse posing men in sexually degrading positions in the nude?

I can't imagine ANYONE who is a professing Christian actually saying, "Oh, well...that's okay...the Jordanians did it..."

No...I'm all for the Geneva Convention...but we didn't abide by the rules, DID WE?

[senerhu]

catsmeow

for your information

Democrats Iraqi Prisoners and the Geneva Convention

One of the biggest complaints about the Iraqi prison abuse scandal is the claim that U.S. soldiers violated the Geneva Convention by subjecting detainees to humiliation and intimidation tactics in a bid to get them to talk.

Democrats are griping the loudest about this. Typical was Tuesday's tirade by Sen. Hillary Clinton to CNN's Wolf Blitzer:

She fumed: "Well, first of all, Wolf, there is the Geneva Convention about the treatment of prisoners of war and there is protocol that certainly members of the Intelligence Committee and others have been briefed on as to what is expected with respect to interrogations carried out in the name of the United States."

Newsflash to Sen. Clinton, and all the others who may have forgotten that the Pentagon expressly exempted terrorist suspects - which is what many of the captured Iraqis are - from Geneva Convention protections at the outset of the war on terror.

And for a very good reason. Notes today's Wall Street Journal:

"The Pentagon has avoided formal Geneva Convention status because it doesn't want al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners to be able to hide behind 'name, rank and serial number.'

That's why, strictly speaking, the Iraqi insurgents being held at the Al Ghraib prison haven't been accorded Prisoner of War status.

If Americans want to suddenly change that, fine. But they should be mindful of the potential consequences.

Just last month Jordanian security forces foiled an al Qaeda weapons of mass destruction plot that could have killed up to 80,000 people. Jordanian TV ran videotaped confessions from the suspects, one of whom admitted he was trained in Iraq by Osama bin Laden's WMD specialist, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

It's a fair bet that the Jordaniains didn't extract this information by adhering to the Geneva Convention protocols.

Zarqawi and his minions are still on the loose in Iraq, plotting to do the same to Americans at home as well as U.S. forces there.

If captured and interrogated, nothing would please them more than to be able to invoke the Geneva protocols - and promptly clam up about the next WMD plot they have in the works.

[Catsmeow]

We're in America...our constitution has taught us human rights and individual rights; there's churches on every street corner...we have a foundation to make righteous judgements.

We're SUPPOSED to be an example of righteousness and freedom. What example have we shown? That we're as gross and disgusting as the Western sleeze films they've seen in the underground markets.

catsmeow,

These prisoners are not the type of people that we can sit around the campfire with and sing "Kumbaya" and in doing so, make everything OK.

If we didn't do any of this humiliation and interrogation techniques to a bunch of terrorists, they would be more than happy to just sit there, MAYBE giving us their name, rank and serial number!!!

And in the meantime, while we're being so moral, tens of thousands of people will die.

Now which is worse?

I cannot believe I am actually hearing people on a Christian message board write this.

I was Pro Bush when others were nay-sayers...I was pro-war, when many were protesting.

I considered our people to be an upright, moral and decent people.

We are called to maintain integrity in war. That means we abide by the Geneva Convention.

KIT: YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW these people in these detention camps. A few are insurgents. Some are just pick pockets and thieves who shoplifted fruit at the market. DID YOU KNOW THAT?

One guy was busted because he was riding in a taxi that he didn't know was stolen. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Did you bother to read that?

Did you know these are NOT terrorists...? These are called, "people"... Yes, people like YOU and ME.

Yeah, I'm all for the war. I'm all proBush...and believe me, I've made a few enemies being proBush and proWar...

But I am one thing some here are not...I am PRO morals and believe the Christians are held to a higher level of expectance. We are called to excellence and mature believers know that.

Even our own president and his council would disagree with you, KITKAT...

The whole government is in disagreement with you...because it's obvious that what's happened is a few idiots in the prison decided to have a little fun with the weak and helpless.

You don't know these "terrorists"...as you call them. Some are bad guys..sure. Some are also victims who were crying like babies because they got caught stealing fruit at the market and now they're embarassed their wives will see them in humiliating positions.

KITKAT, if they were all real terrorists, why did they just release OVER HALF of the prison population, hmmmm?

It's because over half weren't insurgents or terrorists...just people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time or people who got busted for shoplifting and minor offenses.

You really don't have your facts straight AT ALL....but are very quick to justify pornographic behavior in a prison where people should be treated with reasonable decency.

We are not a people that torture and mistreat people. We have officially sanctioned means of interrogation.

Did you read that at all? OFFICIAL MEANS OF INTERROGATION....(i.e. Geneva Convention) and that means you can't go in and do whatever turns you on.

If you're a pervert, you can't go in and gang rape a prisoner...okay?

I don't want to hear this insane logic of yours that somehow it's "OKAY" to treat people like animals.

Geneva Convention rules are what we agreed to...and all countries are expected to abide by it. Why do you think we have egg on our face right now? Hmmm?

[senerhu]

catsmeow, these are not prisoners of war, they are terrorists...hello!

[Work in Progress]

Doesn't ANYBODY here know? The guys whose up for court martial first has a history of domestic violence and wife abuse?

Well, he's a great choice, huh?

how many priests, ministers and pastors have been accused of rape, child molestation and spousal abuse?...hmmm?

Senerhu, this guy is from here. I am friends with his friends. It is VERY true. The guy is a bad apple.

[Catsmeow]

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion

[Guest kitkat]

catsmeow

KIT: YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW these people in these detention camps. A few are insurgents. Some are just pick pockets and thieves who shoplifted fruit at the market. DID YOU KNOW THAT?

No they're not. This prison has forced some of the most hardcore terrorists there are. If you need a link for this, I'll provide it.

But I am one thing some here are not...I am PRO morals and believe the Christians are held to a higher level of expectance. We are called to excellence and mature believers know that.

We are fighting a people who do not have the same morals we have and ONLY respond to the level of humiliation they accept and support.

I DO NOT support ALL of our tactics. Let me say this again and PERFECTLY clear.

I DO NOT support ALL the tactics. If those tactics were satanic in nature with no goal of saving lives, then I am against it, but those photos were taken to show new prisoners what would happen to them if they didn't cooperate.

Now if that gains intelligence that saves tens of thousands of lives, I'm ALL for it, as it did in Jordan.

Even our own president and his council would disagree with you, KITKAT...

Bush has to disagree with it, because of the uproar from the BLAME AMERICA FIRST LIBERALS, who ignored the revelation of these photos, in February, when it wasn't politically expedient for them at the time.

You really don't have your facts straight AT ALL....but are very quick to justify pornographic behavior in a prison where people should be treated with reasonable decency.

Yes I do have my facts straight!!

We are not a people that torture and mistreat people. We have officially sanctioned means of interrogation.

There is a big difference between humiliating terrorists, for intelligence purposes, who are not afforded protection from the Geneva Convention, because they are not prisoners of war, they are TERRORISTS and torture, which they would do in a heartbeat.

I say again, if they were allowed to sit in their cell, singing Kumbaya, ten's or hundreds of thousands of people could be killed. Which would you rather see?

BTW, I am a Christian and I'm one of Bush's biggest supporters myself. I support him 110%.