Christian Metal

[Atonement]

Hey you are the one who said that it's worldy and does not mingle with God.. So I rebuttal your position

You will rebut my position? Haven't you been doing that since I first responded?

Actually what I wrote was "I don't believe that mingling worldly elements with Godly worship constitutes Godly worship." I stand firmly behind that statement.

What can of worms are you willing to open here? Are you new in the Lord? I'm being humble is asking you this my friend, because I would like to educate you in the Bible. Drugs ARE mentioned in the Bible, but of course you must know Greek, or Latin to understand the meaning. Let me break this down..

Pharmakeia (Google this word):

the use or the administering of drugs

poisoning

sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it

metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry

This word is found in both Gal.5:20 and Rev. 9:21, 18:23

Also if you have a Strong's Concordance, a study of the Greek words pharmakeia (Strong's 5331) pharmakeus (Strong's 5332) and (Stong's 5333).

These uses of 'sorcerers' (KJV) use a different Greek word to the singular use of this word in Acts 13:6,8; so this is not just the plural of the same word. From the Greek 'pharmakeus' (Words 5332 and 5333 in Strongs). So there is a connection between all four uses of words 5331, 5332 and 5333 in Revelation. There is indeed a relationship here to the English word 'pharmacy' (which of course, is directly derived from these Greek words).

Actually the root is "pharmakon," for "drug or spell-giving potion." Both "Pharmakeus" and "Pharmakeia" come from this root. The "Pharmakeus" is the practititioner of "Pharmakeia," (also its variant "Pharmakos") which is the area of witchcraft (so translated in Gal. 5:20 in the KJV) associated with the fixing and administering of potions.

Yeah, I'm just a little familiar with this subject. Some believers actually attempt to connect modern pharmacists with purveyors of witchcraft, which is an argument not without its merits, especially in today's world where millions of people are taking drugs their bodies don't actually need.

Nevertheless, there is no single Scripture or passage of Scripture which prevents me from taking a drug as a part of worshiping God. And getting back to your original argument, I should be able to do so, because it's simply taking something that God created and using it "for His glory." That is the inherent flaw in your argument, friend. I am perfectly free to ingest any plant that God created, however you and I both know that although I have such freedom, doing so is not prudent, and can actually lead to sin.

You misunderstood my words.. I never said it was invented by people who use the Black Market. I said it was first used in the Black Market which is very true, you may want to further your research. Either way, remember you said that "leaven leavens the lump"? Yet you disagree with this media outsource.. Again boxing your god.

I understood what you wrote about the internet, and I responded that with "the internet was first invented by university professors who wanted to access information and communicate more effectively." I would have thought that implied that it was first used by university professors, not the black market. Here is a good summary of the internet's history: http://www.isoc.org/internet/history/cerf.shtml

I'm not sure what you mean about "boxing your god," so I'll not respond to the comment. The internet as a subject does not compare with the issue of Heavy Metal and the faith.

You are the one willing to say that God didn't ordain music.

I didn't say that at all. Where did I ever write that God didn't ordain music?

I proved in Scripture already that you seem to ignore over and over.. God created all things for Him and By Him. So you prove that wrong? You prove that God did not ordain metal music. It's your argument against the Word of God.. That's not my desire to prove this further, the proof is there, now you must find Scripture that say's God hasn't.. Good luck my friend. I pray you find your answer

I didn't ignore the verse actually, I just didn't respond to it, because it was cited incorrectly.

"Because in Him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and unto Him." (Col. 1:16)

The "all things" in this verses refers to all things created by Him and through Him. It does not refer to things created by man. Actually, if you want to get technical, God did not create music, it was Jubal in Genesis 4 that is attributed with the creation of music. Some have claimed that the creation of music was the result of the fall, and so it has no place in true worship. Of course I don't belong to that camp.

The point is, you can't claim that heavy metal music is blessed and ordained by God simply because a verse in the Bible says that all things were created in Him (Christ). By such reasoning, as I stated before, we could say that pornography, gambling, and a host of other things considered evil, or things that are used for evil were equally created by God and should therefore have God's blessings upon them. So your application of this verse as justification for Heavy Metal music in Christianity is really erroneous.

Sorry I guess all that Bible college and my doctoral degree in theology serves no purpose. I think you need to study more on this sin. Simple answer it's apparent that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is saying that the Holy Spirit does His miracles by the power of the devil. Which you have assumed in regards to metal music. Thus using the leaven argument.. Big no no.. Unless you are willing to clarify your position better. But this is my understanding of your position

Then you misunderstand my position. I think that to prove that I am blaspheming against the Holy Spirit you would need to prove that "Christian heavy Metal" is a work of the Holy Spirit. Having a doctorate degree in theology you should know that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit refers specifically to slandering the works of the Holy Spirit, as when the Lord cast out a demon by the power of the Spirit in Matthew 12. I really am shocked that a man of your supposed education would misapply the Word of God in such a manner, frankly. Accusing me of the unforgivable sin as a means of defending your own position is just about equivalent to the Catholic anathematizing a heretic, isn't it? By what authority do accuse me of such blasphemy?

So you been doing a long time also? How does that qualify you though? I'm curious? I been using the Internet since 1992, I been on forums since 2000, and I help mod Christianforums.net but I don't see myself as one who knows more then the next person. That's just silly. I love to be educated in the Word of God, I'm open to be taught new things by people like yourself. I also understand that at times another person may have more knowledge on a certain topic.

What I was referring to was your consistency for jumping to conclusions and making straw men from my arguments. I was merely asking you to take my position at face-value rather than making something from it that it is not. I have been a member of Worthy since about 2002 and participated in various online discussion forums long before my joining here. yet since I have been here I have participated in many debates on various subjects which include aspects of what we are talking about here. I also happen to be familiar with the various debate tactics that people will use in order to "win the debate," even though my goal has never really been to win anything.

Your knowlege cleary far seeds mine.. Sorry I must not continue in this argument with you.. You seem to have all the clues and understanding in Greek, and music and all areas.

Wow some of us actually went to school for for Greek,Latin and Hebrew.. *shurgs*

God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. James 4:6.

You win..

Edited June 12, 2008 by Atonement

[Ovedya]

Anyhow, to answer the original question, I don't think there's anything wrong with "Christian Metal". Metal is just a type of music. Music is music. Granted, some of the heavy metal bands to sing very much anti-Christian messages, but that's the perogative of the band. If a band chooses to write Christian lyrics, then what is wrong with it? Is Christian Rap wrong? A lot of rap music talks about beating up their women before going out and splashing all their money on cars and bling bling. Very Chrsitian stuff there.

Or what about pop-music - that is what a lot of current Christian music is based around (that or alternative/punk-type styles). Here's just a couple of quotes from Pop-music -

Dont cha wish your girlfriend was hot like me

Dont cha wish your girlfriend was a freak like me

Dont cha, dont cha

~ Pussycat dolls - Don't Cha

Hallelujah it's raining men, Amen

It's raining men, Hallelujah

It's raining men,

~ Geri Halliwell

These are hardly Christian concepts - lust, coveting (don't cha wish your girlfriend was hot like me), sexuality (pre-marital sexuality - multiple partners... it's raining men). Yet the majority of current Christian music is based on pop-stylistic conventions. Unless you advocate moving back to the old four-part harmony choir with Pipe-organ accompaniment, it would be hypocritical to condemn one style of music as wrong while others are acceptable.

Thank you, I think it's Nelly who sings that one song.. "It's getting hot in here so take off all your clothes" Not a Christian message at all. ALL music Satan has been corrupted in some form or another.

Okay, so then the crux of your argument really hinges on lyrical content, not musical format, right?

So I should be able to simply change the words of the three songs above, leave in everything else, and it will be something which glorifies God?

"Don cha wish your Savior was hot like mine.

Don cha wish your Savior was a healer like mine..."

"Hallelujah it's raining manna

It's raining manna, Hallelujah

It's raining manna..."

"It's getting hot in here so open up your Bible..."

Those are now Christian songs because we've changed the lyrics...

[psalmone]

Hello,

Rock and Metal wasn't my prefered stlyles before but I have been wanting to express appreciation for the Christian Rock/Metal bands for some time though I didn't know who else would appreciate it, especially some of the bands mentioned. I like where they go with it its sounds like some serious warefare could effect with these especially with the Word involved as well.

I think what some people seem to be wanting is fellowship that can help encourage and uphold what God inspires the musicians to create in their contemporary styles, after all the Word says where two or three gather togher unto the Lord there He will be in the midst, so there is benefit in mutual appreciation of breakthrough creativity, the two or three thing somehow being more fulfilling in a world that doesn't even know what to honour.

It goes without saying to put the Lord first and I think that the recent Christian Music is of a very good quality and I am very pleased about that.

[Ovedya]

The only problem that I see with it, is that the 'image' is not that different than the 'worlds'. I do know they reach some kids that other wise would not hear the Gospel.

May I ask a question?

If my Church was having a Rap concert for the youth how many kids do you think would come if they were into metal? And vise versa. If my Church was having a rock concert how many kids would come if they liked rap?

I believe all things were created by God and for God. God can turn anything for His glory

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Amen, Atonement. It's about time that believers took back all the things the devil has stole!!!!

The Devil stole Heavy Metal?

Yes he has. God created music to make a joyful noise unto Him, gave us dance to dance before the Lord, He gave us the shout to break through our circumstances. Today too many church folk don't do this in church because they think it's not holy or proper church etiquette, but we have no problem

shouting, dancing, or jumping up and down when our favorite football team wins the super bowl. How about giving our all to The King who saved us, after all thats why HE gav us these things. Be Blessed.

...And apparently there is no problem when a football player thanks Jesus for helping them with the Superbowl. Did God invent football too? If He did then it must be okay to stay at home and watch the game on a Sunday afternoon when we should be at the meeting.

I don;t believe that the Devil "stole" Heavy Metal. Heavy metal came about as the result of purely worldly influences - and I would argue, demonic influences. So there's no way the church can "take back" something that was never ours to begin with.

I would agree that the devil has influenced the evolution of ALL music to what it is today be it heavy metal, rock and roll, rap, R&B, country. We would just have to listen to the lyrics to know that. But God gave us the talents to create music to glorify Him withm the devil has stolen it from us by perverting it for fleshy purposes. So why would it not be possible to put Him back into it for His glory?

So then, by reason, if "music" (That is, "the production of sound by means of instrumentation") today is of the devil - having been influenced by the devil to the point of complete degradation, why would we want to "bring it back" into the realm of worship? Why would we even want to attempt to change what is inherently evil in the first place? I think that if you examine the situation more carefully it really has more to do with what we want or desire, and what satisfies us more than God, than what God wants and what satisfies Him the most.

Why shouldn't we bring it back into the realm of worship? Your content in allowing satan to continue his influences just because he had it longer? We may not be able to erase all his influence in things like music but why not change what we can. So what would be proper worship and praise music? And do you have special insight on what music would satisfy God the most. All I know is He told us to worship Him with all our mind, body and spirit.

My answer would be, "In a manner which God desires, not what we desire." Fact is, we treat our faith like Burger King: Where we can "have it our way." If we don't like a certain church we can "hop" to the next one, and then to the next one, until we find one that best suits our own personal preference. If we were once formerly headbangers or rap fans, or if we were once bikers or gang members, well then no problem: we can still listen to rap music, metal, punk, and we can still be bikers and gang members, because "have it your way" Christianity features everything that is most desirable to us. It suits our soul-life perfectly. All we have to do is change it a little. How do we not believe that such a superficial and self-serving approach to our faith does not grieve the Lord?

[Atonement]

Anyhow, to answer the original question, I don't think there's anything wrong with "Christian Metal". Metal is just a type of music. Music is music. Granted, some of the heavy metal bands to sing very much anti-Christian messages, but that's the perogative of the band. If a band chooses to write Christian lyrics, then what is wrong with it? Is Christian Rap wrong? A lot of rap music talks about beating up their women before going out and splashing all their money on cars and bling bling. Very Chrsitian stuff there.

Or what about pop-music - that is what a lot of current Christian music is based around (that or alternative/punk-type styles). Here's just a couple of quotes from Pop-music -

Dont cha wish your girlfriend was hot like me

Dont cha wish your girlfriend was a freak like me

Dont cha, dont cha

~ Pussycat dolls - Don't Cha

Hallelujah it's raining men, Amen

It's raining men, Hallelujah

It's raining men,

~ Geri Halliwell

These are hardly Christian concepts - lust, coveting (don't cha wish your girlfriend was hot like me), sexuality (pre-marital sexuality - multiple partners... it's raining men). Yet the majority of current Christian music is based on pop-stylistic conventions. Unless you advocate moving back to the old four-part harmony choir with Pipe-organ accompaniment, it would be hypocritical to condemn one style of music as wrong while others are acceptable.

Thank you, I think it's Nelly who sings that one song.. "It's getting hot in here so take off all your clothes" Not a Christian message at all. ALL music Satan has been corrupted in some form or another.

Okay, so then the crux of your argument really hinges on lyrical content, not musical format, right?

So I should be able to simply change the words of the three songs above, leave in everything else, and it will be something which glorifies God?

"Don cha wish your Savior was hot like mine.

Don cha wish your Savior was a healer like mine..."

"Hallelujah it's raining manna

It's raining manna, Hallelujah

It's raining manna..."

"It's getting hot in here so open up your Bible..."

Those are now Christian songs because we've changed the lyrics...

Now you're getting the idea.. How one band changed the AC/DC song "Highway to Hell" to "Highway to Heaven" And there are many request for that song.. It's great!! You should check it out..

Amen

[Ovedya]

Anyhow, to answer the original question, I don't think there's anything wrong with "Christian Metal". Metal is just a type of music. Music is music. Granted, some of the heavy metal bands to sing very much anti-Christian messages, but that's the perogative of the band. If a band chooses to write Christian lyrics, then what is wrong with it? Is Christian Rap wrong? A lot of rap music talks about beating up their women before going out and splashing all their money on cars and bling bling. Very Chrsitian stuff there.

Or what about pop-music - that is what a lot of current Christian music is based around (that or alternative/punk-type styles). Here's just a couple of quotes from Pop-music -

Dont cha wish your girlfriend was hot like me

Dont cha wish your girlfriend was a freak like me

Dont cha, dont cha

~ Pussycat dolls - Don't Cha

Hallelujah it's raining men, Amen

It's raining men, Hallelujah

It's raining men,

~ Geri Halliwell

These are hardly Christian concepts - lust, coveting (don't cha wish your girlfriend was hot like me), sexuality (pre-marital sexuality - multiple partners... it's raining men). Yet the majority of current Christian music is based on pop-stylistic conventions. Unless you advocate moving back to the old four-part harmony choir with Pipe-organ accompaniment, it would be hypocritical to condemn one style of music as wrong while others are acceptable.

Thank you, I think it's Nelly who sings that one song.. "It's getting hot in here so take off all your clothes" Not a Christian message at all. ALL music Satan has been corrupted in some form or another.

Okay, so then the crux of your argument really hinges on lyrical content, not musical format, right?

So I should be able to simply change the words of the three songs above, leave in everything else, and it will be something which glorifies God?

"Don cha wish your Savior was hot like mine.

Don cha wish your Savior was a healer like mine..."

"Hallelujah it's raining manna

It's raining manna, Hallelujah

It's raining manna..."

"It's getting hot in here so open up your Bible..."

Those are now Christian songs because we've changed the lyrics...

Now you're getting the idea.. How one band changed the AC/DC song "Highway to Hell" to "Highway to Heaven" And there are many request for that song.. It's great!! You should check it out..

Amen

I was being facetious.

Lyrics are only 1/2 of the equation. That's why it's leaven.

[Guest man]

Funny when you do the orgins of metal music, you see that there is no clear relation to the devil..

This is what I found in my search.

Early metal bands, in emulation of popular music as a whole, hoped to discover what was real by finding out first what was not. This attitude, over the course of four generations of music, took metal beyond the grounds of "good" versus "evil" into nihilism, where nothing had inherent value or classification, but could be described in terms of experience.

Nihilism is a frightening belief system for those in societies organized by dualistic (heaven versus earth) and liberal (individualistic, egalitarian) societies, as it denies that our values systems are more real than events in natural reality. To a nihilist, truth is a way we describe some things in reality, but there is no eternal life nor eternal truth which exists separate from immortality. Nihilism means accepting mortality, and experience as what we have in place of a religious or moral truth.

[stacey c]

The only problem that I see with it, is that the 'image' is not that different than the 'worlds'. I do know they reach some kids that other wise would not hear the Gospel.

May I ask a question?

If my Church was having a Rap concert for the youth how many kids do you think would come if they were into metal? And vise versa. If my Church was having a rock concert how many kids would come if they liked rap?

I believe all things were created by God and for God. God can turn anything for His glory

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Amen, Atonement. It's about time that believers took back all the things the devil has stole!!!!

The Devil stole Heavy Metal?

Yes he has. God created music to make a joyful noise unto Him, gave us dance to dance before the Lord, He gave us the shout to break through our circumstances. Today too many church folk don't do this in church because they think it's not holy or proper church etiquette, but we have no problem

shouting, dancing, or jumping up and down when our favorite football team wins the super bowl. How about giving our all to The King who saved us, after all thats why HE gav us these things. Be Blessed.

...And apparently there is no problem when a football player thanks Jesus for helping them with the Superbowl. Did God invent football too? If He did then it must be okay to stay at home and watch the game on a Sunday afternoon when we should be at the meeting.

I don;t believe that the Devil "stole" Heavy Metal. Heavy metal came about as the result of purely worldly influences - and I would argue, demonic influences. So there's no way the church can "take back" something that was never ours to begin with.

I would agree that the devil has influenced the evolution of ALL music to what it is today be it heavy metal, rock and roll, rap, R&B, country. We would just have to listen to the lyrics to know that. But God gave us the talents to create music to glorify Him withm the devil has stolen it from us by perverting it for fleshy purposes. So why would it not be possible to put Him back into it for His glory?

So then, by reason, if "music" (That is, "the production of sound by means of instrumentation") today is of the devil - having been influenced by the devil to the point of complete degradation, why would we want to "bring it back" into the realm of worship? Why would we even want to attempt to change what is inherently evil in the first place? I think that if you examine the situation more carefully it really has more to do with what we want or desire, and what satisfies us more than God, than what God wants and what satisfies Him the most.

Why shouldn't we bring it back into the realm of worship? Your content in allowing satan to continue his influences just because he had it longer? We may not be able to erase all his influence in things like music but why not change what we can. So what would be proper worship and praise music? And do you have special insight on what music would satisfy God the most. All I know is He told us to worship Him with all our mind, body and spirit.

My answer would be, "In a manner which God desires, not what we desire." Fact is, we treat our faith like Burger King: Where we can "have it our way." If we don't like a certain church we can "hop" to the next one, and then to the next one, until we find one that best suits our own personal preference. If we were once formerly headbangers or rap fans, or if we were once bikers or gang members, well then no problem: we can still listen to rap music, metal, punk, and we can still be bikers and gang members, because "have it your way" Christianity features everything that is most desirable to us. It suits our soul-life perfectly. All we have to do is change it a little. How do we not believe that such a superficial and self-serving approach to our faith does not grieve the Lord?

I would agree that we church "hop" looking for that church that suits our preference. I'll admit I have walked out of a church that the praise and worship left much to be desired. IMO God is life, He is my life and I need a church that has "life" in its music. I personally cannot sit in a music service that bores me to tears, I'm radical for God and I need praise that reflects that and I can enter into. How about you Ovedya, have you left a church because the music is too loud? We've all done it at one time or another. I see no resolution to this debate, to each his own. I don't believe God cares what the style of music is being played as long as He recieves all the glory and worship. God inhabits the praises of His people, and as long as I am worshipping in Spirit and in truth He's there. It doesn't matter what style of music we need to enter in just as long as we do. Be Blessed, your sister in Christ Stacey.

[Emily~Anne]

I would just like to add, (without having read many of the long replies) that we need to watch out for what exzactly the Christian lyric is saying. Is it negative? Is it angry towards other perhaps what they deem to be judgemental Christians or etc.? Or is it positive? Focusing on praising God? Someone posted the lyric to a song almos a year ago, that was goth in nature, rather negative and angry, yet 'Christian'. I enjoy Christian rock, but I just think we need to remember to be discerning towards the lyrics, even if they claim to be Christian.

[Atonement]

Anyhow, to answer the original question, I don't think there's anything wrong with "Christian Metal". Metal is just a type of music. Music is music. Granted, some of the heavy metal bands to sing very much anti-Christian messages, but that's the perogative of the band. If a band chooses to write Christian lyrics, then what is wrong with it? Is Christian Rap wrong? A lot of rap music talks about beating up their women before going out and splashing all their money on cars and bling bling. Very Chrsitian stuff there.

Or what about pop-music - that is what a lot of current Christian music is based around (that or alternative/punk-type styles). Here's just a couple of quotes from Pop-music -

Dont cha wish your girlfriend was hot like me

Dont cha wish your girlfriend was a freak like me

Dont cha, dont cha

~ Pussycat dolls - Don't Cha

Hallelujah it's raining men, Amen

It's raining men, Hallelujah

It's raining men,

~ Geri Halliwell

These are hardly Christian concepts - lust, coveting (don't cha wish your girlfriend was hot like me), sexuality (pre-marital sexuality - multiple partners... it's raining men). Yet the majority of current Christian music is based on pop-stylistic conventions. Unless you advocate moving back to the old four-part harmony choir with Pipe-organ accompaniment, it would be hypocritical to condemn one style of music as wrong while others are acceptable.

Thank you, I think it's Nelly who sings that one song.. "It's getting hot in here so take off all your clothes" Not a Christian message at all. ALL music Satan has been corrupted in some form or another.

Okay, so then the crux of your argument really hinges on lyrical content, not musical format, right?

So I should be able to simply change the words of the three songs above, leave in everything else, and it will be something which glorifies God?

"Don cha wish your Savior was hot like mine.

Don cha wish your Savior was a healer like mine..."

"Hallelujah it's raining manna

It's raining manna, Hallelujah

It's raining manna..."

"It's getting hot in here so open up your Bible..."

Those are now Christian songs because we've changed the lyrics...

Now you're getting the idea.. How one band changed the AC/DC song "Highway to Hell" to "Highway to Heaven" And there are many request for that song.. It's great!! You should check it out..

Amen

I was being facetious.

Lyrics are only 1/2 of the equation. That's why it's leaven.

Same reason you blasphemy the holy spirit?