Rebmilc Posted June 15, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 204 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/07/1949 Share Posted June 15, 2008 The following is some early creeds that do not mention Jesus going to hell . . . not until around 400 A.D. Question is, why did the early church not include this in their statement of faith it Jesus did in fact descend into hell itself. Remember, our English translations are dated mush later than 400 A.D. THE APOSTLES' CREED THIRD CENTURY (?) "The Symbolum Apostolorum was developed between the 2nd and 9th centuries. It is the most popular creed used in worship by Western Christians. Its central doctrines are those of the Trinity and God the Creator. "Legend has it that the Apostles wrote this creed on the tenth day after Christ's ascension into heaven . . . each of the doctrines found in the creed can be traced to statements current in the apostolic period. The earliest written version of the creed is perhaps the Interrogatory Creed of Hippolytus below (c.215 A.D.). INTERROGATORY CREED OF HIPPOLYTUS Do you believe in God the Father All Governing? Do you believe in Christ Jesus, The Son of God, Who was begotten by the Holy Spirit from the Virgin Mary, Who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and die (and was buried) and rose again the third day living from the dead, and ascended into the heavens, and sat down on the right hand of God, and will come again to judge the living and the dead? Do you believe in the Holy Ghost, in the holy Church, and in the resurrection of the body? Notice there is no mention of a descent into hell. RULE OF FAITH SECOND CENTURY, AS RECORDED BY IRENAEUS: ". . .this faith: in one God, the Father Almighty, who made the heaven and the earth and the seas and all the things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was made flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who made known through the prophets the plan of salvation, and the coming, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and his future appearing from heaven in the glory of the Father to sum up all things and to raise anew all flesh of the whole human race. . ." Again no mention of a descent into hell. CREED OF MARCELLUS (340 A.D.) I believe in God, All Governing; And in Christ Jesus His only begotten Son, our Lord, Who was begotten of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Marf, Who was crucified under Pontius Pilate and buried, Who rose from the dead on the third day, ascending to the heavens and taking His seat at the Father's right hand, whence He shall come to judge both the living and the dead; And (I) believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, life everlasting. Again no mention of a descent into hell. A BAPTISMAL CONFESSION THIRD CENTURY, HIPPOLYTUS "When the person being baptized goes down into the water, he who baptizes him, putting his hand on him, shall say: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted June 15, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,071 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 428 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Online Author Share Posted June 15, 2008 (edited) I don't know blindseeker. This all seems a little strange to me. You use the quotes above from the early church writings, for the first 400 years, to support your position saying Jesus didn't descend to hell because they didn't mention it. quote (Why do you think the early creeds were silent if it was indeed a true biblical truth? Wouldn't it (shouldn't it) have been included in their statement of faith?) close quote. Yet in a previous thread (the Genesis 6 son's of God Thread) you ignore the fact that the early church writings for the first 500 years excepted the Son's of God as being fallen angels. The difference lies with what would be considered foundational tenants of the Christian faith. The creeds were established as a list of primary beliefs considered necessary for the foundation of true Christian faith. The theology concerning angels doesn't fall into that category and is never mentioned in any creed that I have ever read. Therefore to err regarding the angels is not what I would consider to be crucial to one's faith. The theories of Jesus going to hell, or dying spiritually and/or doing hand to hand combat with the adversaries is a different matter altogether. There are many, many various doctrines based upon mere speculation and misinterpretation of the scriptures that are directly attached to man's atonement . . . do you know of any such doctrines regarding the angels? I personally have not heard of any damnable heresies stemming from confusion around the angels endeavoring to have sex and procreate with women . . . if you know of such feel free to post them on the sons of God thread and I will review them there. Nonetheless, to address your assertion, I have not ignored Edited June 15, 2008 by BlindSeeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xan Posted June 16, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,060 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/02/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/23/1970 Share Posted June 16, 2008 The other take of course is that if Christ is going to fully take on our sin, He must suffer hell in our place also. I can't tell from your post if this is what you believe or if you are playing devil's advocate. If it is the former, then allow me to ask what part of "It is finished" are you having trouble understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted June 16, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,071 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 428 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Online Author Share Posted June 16, 2008 What is called "hell" to day was believed to have three different sections with three different names in the days of Jesus. The Greek name for hell is "Hades" which means "The place of departed souls". The definition of the word Hades does not determine whether these souls are good souls or bad souls. According to scripture we know that there is a place of rest"Abraham's Bosom" A place of burning"Gehenna" and then there is a prison named "Tartaroo" which is not mentioned in scripture but the prison is. When Jesus descended into the lower regions of the earth He did not go to Gehenna and burn for three days, nor did He go to the prison where darkness riegns. He went to the place of rest ie. the Bosom of Abraham and declared victory to all including the wicked dead. . . . I can agree for the most part with your words here. But I do not necessarily believe Jesus specifically went to paradise to declare victory. I am inclined to believe He simply returned to heaven (where paradise is) as conqueror and His glory was openly proclaimed by the angelic host. (However, accuracy on this minor point I do not believe to be critical . . .) 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. . . . After the Jerusalem Church faded out, the Roman Church became the prominent church on the world scene and acquired great wealth and power. At that time began to change the early biblical writings of the early church leaders and added pagan ritual to the church. So to day we have certain misconceptions about certain scriptures. But God has left us with the ability and the means to see through these things and know the truth. That is if we are willing to except it. I believe this to be true. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelLane Posted June 16, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 11 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/20/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2008 Some time ago our church decided to do a series of preaches on the Apostles Creed [i thinki I have got the right one!]. I got 2 slots - "I believe" and "He descended into Hell" There was a lot more biblical evidence for the first one [better songs too!] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted June 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Hi bindseeker, Okay I went back and read that post. For me a simpler and more direct reading is that Christ preached in hell. I don't see scriptural evidence of multiple spiritual realms with little prisons here and there for some disobedient Spirits (demons); there are simply heaven, earth and hell. But I can also see what you mean it is just one verse. But to me it makes theological sense that Christ indeed preached His gospel to those in hell, every knee must bow. The other take of course is that if Christ is going to fully take on our sin, He must suffer hell in our place also. Then the shedding of Christ's blood wasn't sufficient. There are a whole lot of verses then that are inaccurate regarding the propitiation for the sins of the world . . . Correct, which is why I don't totally buy the second point. I am however persuaded by the first point, that Christ has preached the Gospel to all, including those in hell, there will be no excuse, everyone will have chosen. Regardless the Creed says nothing of why Christ descended into hell, it simply says that He did, which I think is based on the passage that was posted. Or they simply meant death, which also is referred to as hell in some parts of scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted June 17, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Share Posted June 17, 2008 No Jesus did not "descend into "Hell" to "minister" to anyone. 1 Peter 3:18-20: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 What did Jesus "preach?" The text doesn't say. The assumption by some is that He preached the gospel, but that is pure conjecture. What we are not told is message he preached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xan Posted June 17, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,060 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/02/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/23/1970 Share Posted June 17, 2008 No Jesus did not "descend into "Hell" to "minister" to anyone. 1 Peter 3:18-20: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted June 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,071 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 428 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Online Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 Maybe now rereading my post will make more sense. I didn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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