Left Behind - will there be a "Rapture"?

[Massorite]

You first have to remember that they had no NT to refer to, and were going by what is brought to them by word of mouth or letter.

They did not have such teaching in front of them as we do today.

They had teachings from Timothy himself. Timothy lived there. You can't say use an excuse of "they did not have writings, etc"...they had an actual Apostle there

for quite some time.

1 Thessalonians 3:6 But Timothy has just now come to us from you and has brought good news about your faith and love.

Timothy was not an apostle.

blah just saw what i typed. my fault.

Maybe I should of said more clearer that Paul founded the church in Thessalonica.

More than likely laid the foundation.

Timothy was stationed there a while. Timothy was under Paul.

my point was that the Thessalonians were hearing things fisthand and break the impression (OneLight has) that they relied on writings passed down.

The first century church depended on the teachings of the Apostles, their writings, and traditions. This is why Paul had to correct and warn them of the false teachings that were being brought to them. You have to remember that there were those who came in claiming to be an Apostle of Christ, but were found false. Not everything was as clear cut as you would like to believe.

Not only that but there were several books that were written within the first 200 years of the church by self called Apostles of Jesus that were found to be heresy, false or tainted by false teachings. This is why Paul and other men of his caliber did and said the things they did and said. There was a need to keep the church on the straight and narrow. Not like the so very wide path the church is running down in this day and time.

[Guest kaoticprofit]

e

Edited September 13, 2009 by kaoticprofit

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

There is obvious gross confusion on this subject. I'll be blunt and state that most of the confusion centers around:

1 - not making a distinction between Israel and the Church which is the Body of Christ;

2 - not realizing that the Rapture and The Second Coming of Christ are definitely two separate events;

3 - not realizing that the Tribulation Period was determined against Israel - not the Church which is the Body of Christ.

Some people say that they've studied this issue, but they haven't unless they've spent years of dedicated study on multiple books in the Old Testament and the New Testament. One might be able to scratch the surface of the work to be done in in 5 years of dedicated study. There are no quick and easy answers, and many folks want microwave - jiffy-pop Bible Study. It doesn't work that way, and serious errors that bear no resemblance to the Bible are the result. It's almost unbelievable that some Christians don't have a clue about the millennial reign of Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. It's even Greek for some that Jesus Christ is the Anointed King of Israel, and He will definitely take what is His at His Second Coming in great and Holy Wrath. The Rapture of the Church which is the Body of Christ is a pleasant, joyous event. The Second Coming of Christ involves Christ crushing evil and great bloodshed. In other words, the tone of the events are on the opposite end of the spectrum from each other.

The first thing to do is go back to the beginning basics of Salvation. Salvation is "Rescue" and "Peace" with God. The Church which is the body of Christ was not formed for wrath. There are definite reasons why the worst part of the Tribulation Period is known as the "time of Jacob's Trouble". Hint: connect this with Israel and don't confuse Israel with the Church which is the body of Christ.

It's also sad that some Christians know so little about Bible Prophecy that they spiritualize or otherwise dismiss events and details that will most certainly take place. Even worse, many Christians don't even know about God's Promises to themselves - much less Israel. There is gross confusion because many Christians spend almost no time at all in studying their Bibles. It's "instant" and "fast" everything and bluntly - many Christians have little time for God. There isn't much doubt that we are living in the last days of this Age of Grace, and most Christians still don't have time for God. They have lots time for everything else - but not God. The time is growing short for the Church which is the Body of Christ to reach the lost, and many of those lost people are our family and friends. If there was ever a time to wake up, pay attention, and get busy - this is it right now - before it's too late. We are currently living in the terminal generation of this Age of Grace. What would you want to do if you knew this was your last day on this earth? Live as if this is your last day on earth. Give God His proper place in your life and do a reasonable service for Him solely because you love Him.

nChrist

[Floatingaxe]

Brothers and Sisters,

There is obvious gross confusion on this subject. I'll be blunt and state that most of the confusion centers around:

1 - not making a distinction between Israel and the Church which is the Body of Christ;

2 - not realizing that the Rapture and The Second Coming of Christ are definitely two separate events;

3 - not realizing that the Tribulation Period was determined against Israel - not the Church which is the Body of Christ.

Some people say that they've studied this issue, but they haven't unless they've spent years of dedicated study on multiple books in the Old Testament and the New Testament. One might be able to scratch the surface of the work to be done in in 5 years of dedicated study. There are no quick and easy answers, and many folks want microwave - jiffy-pop Bible Study. It doesn't work that way, and serious errors that bear no resemblance to the Bible are the result. It's almost unbelievable that some Christians don't have a clue about the millennial reign of Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. It's even Greek for some that Jesus Christ is the Anointed King of Israel, and He will definitely take what is His at His Second Coming in great and Holy Wrath. The Rapture of the Church which is the Body of Christ is a pleasant, joyous event. The Second Coming of Christ involves Christ crushing evil and great bloodshed. In other words, the tone of the events are on the opposite end of the spectrum from each other.

The first thing to do is go back to the beginning basics of Salvation. Salvation is "Rescue" and "Peace" with God. The Church which is the body of Christ was not formed for wrath. There are definite reasons why the worst part of the Tribulation Period is known as the "time of Jacob's Trouble". Hint: connect this with Israel and don't confuse Israel with the Church which is the body of Christ.

It's also sad that some Christians know so little about Bible Prophecy that they spiritualize or otherwise dismiss events and details that will most certainly take place. Even worse, many Christians don't even know about God's Promises to themselves - much less Israel. There is gross confusion because many Christians spend almost no time at all in studying their Bibles. It's "instant" and "fast" everything and bluntly - many Christians have little time for God. There isn't much doubt that we are living in the last days of this Age of Grace, and most Christians still don't have time for God. They have lots time for everything else - but not God. The time is growing short for the Church which is the Body of Christ to reach the lost, and many of those lost people are our family and friends. If there was ever a time to wake up, pay attention, and get busy - this is it right now - before it's too late. We are currently living in the terminal generation of this Age of Grace. What would you want to do if you knew this was your last day on this earth? Live as if this is your last day on earth. Give God His proper place in your life and do a reasonable service for Him solely because you love Him.

nChrist

I really like this!

[Massorite]

Brothers and Sisters,

There is obvious gross confusion on this subject. I'll be blunt and state that most of the confusion centers around:

1 - not making a distinction between Israel and the Church which is the Body of Christ;

2 - not realizing that the Rapture and The Second Coming of Christ are definitely two separate events;

3 - not realizing that the Tribulation Period was determined against Israel - not the Church which is the Body of Christ.

Some people say that they've studied this issue, but they haven't unless they've spent years of dedicated study on multiple books in the Old Testament and the New Testament. One might be able to scratch the surface of the work to be done in in 5 years of dedicated study. There are no quick and easy answers, and many folks want microwave - jiffy-pop Bible Study. It doesn't work that way, and serious errors that bear no resemblance to the Bible are the result. It's almost unbelievable that some Christians don't have a clue about the millennial reign of Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. It's even Greek for some that Jesus Christ is the Anointed King of Israel, and He will definitely take what is His at His Second Coming in great and Holy Wrath. The Rapture of the Church which is the Body of Christ is a pleasant, joyous event. The Second Coming of Christ involves Christ crushing evil and great bloodshed. In other words, the tone of the events are on the opposite end of the spectrum from each other.

The first thing to do is go back to the beginning basics of Salvation. Salvation is "Rescue" and "Peace" with God. The Church which is the body of Christ was not formed for wrath. There are definite reasons why the worst part of the Tribulation Period is known as the "time of Jacob's Trouble". Hint: connect this with Israel and don't confuse Israel with the Church which is the body of Christ.

It's also sad that some Christians know so little about Bible Prophecy that they spiritualize or otherwise dismiss events and details that will most certainly take place. Even worse, many Christians don't even know about God's Promises to themselves - much less Israel. There is gross confusion because many Christians spend almost no time at all in studying their Bibles. It's "instant" and "fast" everything and bluntly - many Christians have little time for God. There isn't much doubt that we are living in the last days of this Age of Grace, and most Christians still don't have time for God. They have lots time for everything else - but not God. The time is growing short for the Church which is the Body of Christ to reach the lost, and many of those lost people are our family and friends. If there was ever a time to wake up, pay attention, and get busy - this is it right now - before it's too late. We are currently living in the terminal generation of this Age of Grace. What would you want to do if you knew this was your last day on this earth? Live as if this is your last day on earth. Give God His proper place in your life and do a reasonable service for Him solely because you love Him.

nChrist

Well

[Massorite]

Brothers and Sisters,

There is obvious gross confusion on this subject. I'll be blunt and state that most of the confusion centers around:

1 - not making a distinction between Israel and the Church which is the Body of Christ;

2 - not realizing that the Rapture and The Second Coming of Christ are definitely two separate events;

3 - not realizing that the Tribulation Period was determined against Israel - not the Church which is the Body of Christ.

Some people say that they've studied this issue, but they haven't unless they've spent years of dedicated study on multiple books in the Old Testament and the New Testament. One might be able to scratch the surface of the work to be done in in 5 years of dedicated study. There are no quick and easy answers, and many folks want microwave - jiffy-pop Bible Study. It doesn't work that way, and serious errors that bear no resemblance to the Bible are the result. It's almost unbelievable that some Christians don't have a clue about the millennial reign of Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. It's even Greek for some that Jesus Christ is the Anointed King of Israel, and He will definitely take what is His at His Second Coming in great and Holy Wrath. The Rapture of the Church which is the Body of Christ is a pleasant, joyous event. The Second Coming of Christ involves Christ crushing evil and great bloodshed. In other words, the tone of the events are on the opposite end of the spectrum from each other.

The first thing to do is go back to the beginning basics of Salvation. Salvation is "Rescue" and "Peace" with God. The Church which is the body of Christ was not formed for wrath. There are definite reasons why the worst part of the Tribulation Period is known as the "time of Jacob's Trouble". Hint: connect this with Israel and don't confuse Israel with the Church which is the body of Christ.

It's also sad that some Christians know so little about Bible Prophecy that they spiritualize or otherwise dismiss events and details that will most certainly take place. Even worse, many Christians don't even know about God's Promises to themselves - much less Israel. There is gross confusion because many Christians spend almost no time at all in studying their Bibles. It's "instant" and "fast" everything and bluntly - many Christians have little time for God. There isn't much doubt that we are living in the last days of this Age of Grace, and most Christians still don't have time for God. They have lots time for everything else - but not God. The time is growing short for the Church which is the Body of Christ to reach the lost, and many of those lost people are our family and friends. If there was ever a time to wake up, pay attention, and get busy - this is it right now - before it's too late. We are currently living in the terminal generation of this Age of Grace. What would you want to do if you knew this was your last day on this earth? Live as if this is your last day on earth. Give God His proper place in your life and do a reasonable service for Him solely because you love Him.

nChrist

Well I spend 8 years of hard biblical study on proiphecy and I do not have the slightest bit of hesitation in telling you that you are dead wrong and should go back and spend another 5 years rethinking your conclusions because thay are for a fact not based on biblical intigrity. I have no more to say here.

[Guest Ken Rank]

Just thought I would share an additional perspective. I will be upfront, I no longer believe in any rapture of any kind. If you will indulge me....

Years ago when I first started going to church, I was of course taught about the pre-trib rapture. I never accepted it, but never really doubted it either because at the time, well, I was all wet behind the ears. As the years (really about a year) went by, I really began to study the topic and soon became convinced that the rapture would happen at the end of the tribulation. The parable of the wheat and tares (Matt. 13) had the tares (children of the wicked one) taken "before" the wheat. (Children of the Kingdom)There were other facets to it that gave me additional witnesses, like Messiah likening his return to the days of Noah and Lot. Both men were moved to places of safety, but neither were REmoved from earth. And as Messiah stated, "so shall it be in the day of the Son of Man."

So about a decade went by when I began to take a different course in how I viewed scripture. I began to realize that those who were inspired to write the scriptures were Hebrew, who wrote predominantly in Hebrew, who grew up and lived in a Hebraic culture, and most importantly, "thought" like a Hebrew. Idioms and phraseology was used by them which are Hebrew... so why am I trying to discern their writings, prayerfully, with a Western Greek influenced mind? My culture (USA) is Greek influenced in thought, and I was trying to understand scripture through that paradigm.

The concept of a rapture is simply not Hebraic. Being "caught up in the clouds" is a Hebrew idiom and metaphor and is not literal. I was once 45 minutes late from a meeting getting home and when I got home my worried wife asked, "what happened, I was worried sick!" My answer, "I got caught up in the fog and couldn't see where I was driving." The same type event when the "cloud" was placed between the Israelites and the Egyptian army during the beginning of the Exodus. The Israelites, as far as the Egyptian Army was concerned, was "caught up in a cloud." The OT, speaks of God's people being "returned" to the Promised Land, not whisked into heaven where they spend eternity. The meek inherit the earth, not heaven.

Another user pointed out as his first point in understanding the rapture that we need to understand the difference between the church and Israel. Respectfully, I could not disagree more. It is from that mindset, that doctrine, that we have a doctrine like the rapture in the first place. (The doctrine of a rapture is rather modern incidentally...a few hundred years old at best) Folks, the church, whether you are taught this or not, IS Israel. Not a replacement for Israel, there are still the 12 tribes of Israel, we do not replace them. But we are grafted into them as seen in Romans 11. Ephesians 2 couldn't be plainer when it tells us that "in times PAST" we were gentiles, HAD no hope, weren't partakers of the covenants of promise, and WERE considered aliens (non-citizens) of "the Commonweath of Israel." Yet Paul writes on saying that NOW through Messiah and the blood he shed, we are NOW no longer "aliens" but "fellow citizens with the saints." (Israel) This is why my brothers and sisters in Messiah, that when you read the prophecy of the new covenant (which we know is cut through Messiah), it is made ONLY with the House of Judah and the House of Israel. This prophecy is repeated word for word in Hebrews 8. There is NO mention of "the church" in relation to the new covenant. "Church" is probably not the best word translated from ekklēsia anyway..... "called out ones" is the literal meaning. It can also mean assembly or gathering... an assembly of those who come in faith through Messiah, the ones called out from the nations.

And therein rests another untaught piece of information that removes confusion from this subject. After Soloman, Israel was split into two Kingdoms, the Southern Kingdom called Judah (made up of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and a splattering of Levi), and the Northern Kingdom called Israel (made up of the remaining 10 tribes). When both Kingdoms were taken into captivity, scripture is clear, only Judah (the modern short form is "Jew") the Southern Kingdom came back to the Land. The Northern Kingdom was scattered into the nations, given up for idols, lost their identity, and prophetically speaking, has not yet returned. (Read all of Ezk 37, Jer. 31:31-34 and I can supply more on request)

So when Messiah came, who did he come for?

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Millions were "scattered" (or sown) into the nations (go back and read the parable of the wheat and tares with this in mind, Matt 13) and 62 generations later, amount to how many? In how many nations? Abraham's seed dear friends is Israel and is so vast it can't be counted, and by faith we are Abraham's seed. So, some of us are more than likely descendents of the scattered Northern Kingdom, and even if we are not, no matter... we are grafted into Israel becoming a "fellow citizen" anyway. And in the end, when Messiah returns, he sends his angels to gather his chosen (eklektos G 1588) and we will be "returned" to the Land, and will reign with Messiah for 1000 years. When the "church" begins to grasp the idea of who they were grafted into, prophecies about the end time become less divisive because the meanings become much clearer.

Sorry this was so long, but this was even the cliff note version.

Peace to you all.

Ken

Edited September 30, 2009 by Ken Rank

[humbleseeker]

I voted yes. I will say that I do not take to heart all of the possibilities behind when this will take place. I believe one should always be in waiting for Christ return regardless if there is rapture or not. We will meet God in are death of are mortal bodies and that could be a form of personal rapture for us all.

[Floatingaxe]

Acts 1:9-11

9 After saying this, he was taken up into a cloud while they were watching, and they could no longer see him. 10 As they strained to see him rising into heaven, two white-robed men suddenly stood among them. 11

[Guest Ken Rank]

I voted yes. I will say that I do not take to heart all of the possibilities behind when this will take place. I believe one should always be in waiting for Christ return regardless if there is rapture or not. We will meet God in are death of are mortal bodies and that could be a form of personal rapture for us all.

That was a very humble (and refreshingly open minded) statement. I share your thoughts.

Peace.

Ken