Left Behind - will there be a "Rapture"?

[Massorite]

I didn't read that part in Scripture. Where is that?

Matthew 13:30, 13:39, Jesus will send angels to gather us from the grave.

[Massorite]

I voted yes. I will say that I do not take to heart all of the possibilities behind when this will take place. I believe one should always be in waiting for Christ return regardless if there is rapture or not. We will meet God in are death of are mortal bodies and that could be a form of personal rapture for us all.

You have made an assumption about a fact the the bible does not back up because it does not exist in scripture. Your belief is an effort to justify the false belief that when we die we will go to heaven and be with God no matter what the word of God says or does not say. Which makes your statement one that is made as if it were the word of God but there is actually no truth your statement at all.

However if you can show me in the bible where there is clear proof of what you believe then I will gladly write down the words " I was wrong" on a piece of rice paper and eat it and my bible does have a blank piece of rice paper from which I can get a piece and I will admit here on this thread for all to see that I was wrong. However you can not find biblical proof to back up your claim I would expect you to be humble enough as you screen name implies to admit that you are wrong and that you could not find the biblical/scripture to justify your belief.

I live by this. If it is not written in the bible it does not exist and is false.

So Humbleseeker can you put your scripture where your mouth is?

[Massorite]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (ASV)13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 (ASV)50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: 57 but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not vain in the Lord.

EVERYBODY just loves to quote these scriptures you have just quoted when they are trying to justify this false belief of going to heaven as soon as we die. But parts of these scriptures are talking about SLEEPING in Jesus and incorruptible. So if as soon as we die we go straight to heaven and will be with God for ever more when will we have time to do any sleeping in Jesus? Will we go to sleep after we get to heaven? That would be a very boring exsistance in heaven don't you think? No wait a minute when we are sleeping in death we will now nothing so we won't even now that we are in heaven. Imagine that.

When we do go to heaven we will leave corruptible ( the flesh or mortality) and become incorruptible (immortal/glorified body). So assuming that we do go to heaven just as soon as we die we know that scripture tells us that we will be raised from the grave when Jesus comes back to collect us from the grave on Resurrection day. So does that mean that in order for Jesus to collect us from the grave that we will all leave heaven and re-inhabit corruptible so Jesus can rise us back out of the grave, so we can become incorruptible once again so we will be able to go back to heaven to be with the Lord?

And if when we die we will all go straight to heaven that would mean that ALL OF THE GRAVES would be empty on Resurrection day which would mean again that we would all who are in heaven need to do a mass migration back to the grave from heaven before Jesus would be able to fulfill prophetic scripture and raise us from the grave. I mean Jesus wouldn't be able to raise us from the grave unless we were all in the grave Right? Wouldn't that be a very embarrassing event for Jesus if when He came back for us the only Christians who would be raised would be only the living because all of the graves of those who are supposed to be sleeping in the grave and in Christ would already be empty when He got here.

I do believe that event would make God a bald face lier if all of the graves were already empty and we were already in heaven before Jesus came back to collect us. Do you think God would get a good out of making Jesus look like a fool in front of the whole world? I can hear Jesus now. Whoops! What happened? Where are they?

[Massorite]

I didn't read that part in Scripture. Where is that?

Matthew 13:30, 13:39, Jesus will send angels to gather us from the grave.

Way cool!

Do you think people change the Word of God in this subject because they don't understand being in the ground "waiting"? Well maybe they fear that just like I did until I realized that we aren't actually waiting because the dead know nothing. We wont have a knowledge of waiting that is.

It is a false concept that who knows how it got started. People seem to take great confort in believing that loved ones go straight to heaven as soon as they die. The cold hard truth here is that it is a false doctrinal belief that has so entrenched in our system of belief that 95% of Christians will get angry at you or consider you to be nuts in exactly what the word of God actually says. Something I just love to tell Christians is what Jesus said on the cross to the thief on the cross. He said "This day you shall be with me in Paradise". Then I tell them that Pual tells us that Jesus first deceneded into the lower reaches of the earth. After that I ask them "So where did Jesus go on the day that He died"?. And believe it or not 95% of Christians will say " To heaven of coarse".

It is just like the "seven years of tribulation". There is no such a thing as the words "seven years of tribulation" written anywhere in the bible in that sequence.

Or the restrainer. The belief is that the restrainer is the church. But one can not find anywhere in the bible where it says "The resistrainer is the church". So if the word of God doesn't clearly tell us that the restrainer is the church. Then the belief that the restrainer is that church is an assumption that has no biblical back up.

Or the pre-tribulation concept. What does Jesus say in Matthew 24? "AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS". That is a very very clear statement directly from Christ yet millions and millions of Christians around the world believe that Jesus will be coming for us ( resurrection day) before the great tribulation.

How can they miss what Jesus Him self says in Matthew 24?

Those that believe these false doctrinal beliefs are self blinded to the truth. They want the truth to be what they want they to be so bad that they are willing to blind them selves to the truth of the word of God. This is spiritual warfare within the whole body of Christ. It is a spiritual warfare over the souls of the saved.

JamiLea here is how I lcomfortPauldescendedrestrainerive. If it is not written in the word of God it does not exist. If all of us would stick with that philosophy there wouldn't be so many false doctrinal beliefs and confusion in the body of Christ. Believing in that which is not written in the word of God plays right into the hand of satan and that is how we give him power to hurt us as a body.

[Bold Believer]

I didn't read that part in Scripture. Where is that?

Matthew 13:30, 13:39, Jesus will send angels to gather us from the grave.

Exactly. On the LAST DAY (which Yeshua says over and over and over again) the Archangel will bow the trumpet, the angels will gather up Believers from the grave, live Believers will change and dead wicked will be rejuvenated. The rapture is a word we use to describe the changing of LIVE Believers from mortal bodies to immortal bodies.

Deceased Believers will be brought forth FIRST. Then the Rapture of live Believers and finally the rejuvenation of the wicked dead. (Not resurrection, the wicked dead are NOT resurrected into new bodies, but rejuvenated [brought back to life as WE know it] into the same body we had.

Revelation 20 is the key to a lot of the questions people ask. The Last Day occurs after the Messianic Era and the rebellion of Gog and Magog.

If I had to make a chart, it would look something like this:

1. Daniel's 70 weeks/coming of Messiah

2. Death and Resurrection of the Messiah (middle of the 70 weeks)

3. Coronation of Messiah as King (the Ascension)

4. Beginning of the Messianic Era with Messiah reigning from heaven (NOT earth as is commonly and erroneously taught)

5. Establishment of the Holy Assembly (Ekklesia/Church) "My house shall be a house of prayer for ALL the peoples"

6. The Great Tribulation/Time of Jacob's Trouble (66-70 AD) when apostate Israel is punished for her rejection of Messiah. Apostate Israel aligns with Rome and worships the Beast (Roman Emperors, notably Nero) with the permission of the Sanhedrin (The False Prophet) and those who do so receive the Mark of the Beast. (The jist of the Revelation)

7. The judgment of the Great Whore and her Beast Lover (Rev 17, Eze 16, Jer 51) Rome's power is broken, Israel is dispersed amongst the nations.

8. Satan is captured and bound to keep the nations from being deceived about the True God. The Godly dead reign from the throne with Christ, which leads to: (Rev 20)

9. Fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy that the whole earth would be filled with the knowledge of God. (Knowing something and actually BELIEVING it are two different things. The world KNOWS that our God exists, missionaries have gone out now for 2000 plus years. Christianity has taught about Jesus in every major country.)

10. Turning of the nations to Messiah and the establishment of Christianized society. Christianity became the PRE-DOMINANT religion, the great mountain. Christianity brought great things to the world, most notably freedom. God punished/punishes those nations who violated His Law. Some right away, others over time. A Christianized society simply means that the Law of God and the principles God laid down in Scripture were used to establish societies instead of heathen teachings. This on occasion made some countries subservient to others (India to Britain for example)

11. The end of the Messianic Age (Millenium, Thousand years, Church Age, all euphemisms for the same thing), the rise of apostasy in the Church and the loosing of Satan, rise of the Man of Sin and the Last Great Rebellion/War of Gog and Magog.

12. The Last Day...

a. Fire falls from out of heaven to consume the wicked

b. The Resurrection of the righteous occurs

c. The Rapture of living saints

(These 3 events occur near simultaneously, but so fast as to be indistinguishable to human concept and reasoning ability. Basically, fire falls as the Resurrection/Rapture occur, we meet Christ in the air and return to the destroyed earth.)

d. The wicked are raised, judged and hurled into Gehenna with their master Satan-Gog

e.The Lord re-creates the Heavens and the Earth (Rev 21)

f. Believers populate it for eternity, enjoying an Edenic situation world-wide and the Presence of Almighty God in Christ forever.

[exrockstar]

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

I did not vote for this topic because I have not studied Scripture yet on this topic. I do not lean on my own understanding however when I read this verse, I see that we will not be with the Lord until the day He comes down from Heaven to get us. So, when we die, we do stay in the ground, dead but not disheveled because we know nothing while we are dead:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (King James Version)

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

So, we have no knowledge of time and no knowledge of anything until the day our Lord comes to get us and we will meet with Him in the air.

Do I have that right?

It's still confusing to me because whenever I heard people telling me that I will be in the ground until the day He returns, I used to become furious because I wanted to be with Him right away and thought that was unfair. But now that I see that Scripture says the dead know nothing, well that makes me feel a bit better about this. If this is the way it will happen.

Yes you got it very right! As the bible does not say "when you die you will go to heaven" anywhere. Those that like to believe that we do go to heaven as soon as we die quote scripture that says "To be absent from the body is to be in the presents of the Lord". The problem with that is the fact that 2 words are ignored in that verse. They are " Willing Rather". In the verse Paul is telling us that we are "WILLING RATHER to be absent from the body" When the word "Willing Rather" are left out of the quote it changes the meaning of the verse. It turns the verse into a falsly quoted verse and it is sin to mislead any one by omiting words of a verse to change the meaning of it.

We can agree that in the Old Testament righteous people died and went to paradise (which is now empty). but in the new testament, youre claiming, people dont go anywhere but sleep? where is this verse found of the process changing?

[Massorite]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (ASV)13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 (ASV)50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: 57 but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not vain in the Lord.

EVERYBODY just loves to quote these scriptures you have just quoted when they are trying to justify this false belief of going to heaven as soon as we die. But parts of these scriptures are talking about SLEEPING in Jesus and incorruptible. So if as soon as we die we go straight to heaven and will be with God for ever more when will we have time to do any sleeping in Jesus? Will we go to sleep after we get to heaven? That would be a very boring exsistance in heaven don't you think? No wait a minute when we are sleeping in death we will now nothing so we won't even now that we are in heaven. Imagine that.

When we do go to heaven we will leave corruptible ( the flesh or mortality) and become incorruptible (immortal/glorified body). So assuming that we do go to heaven just as soon as we die we know that scripture tells us that we will be raised from the grave when Jesus comes back to collect us from the grave on Resurrection day. So does that mean that in order for Jesus to collect us from the grave that we will all leave heaven and re-inhabit corruptible so Jesus can rise us back out of the grave, so we can become incorruptible once again so we will be able to go back to heaven to be with the Lord?

And if when we die we will all go straight to heaven that would mean that ALL OF THE GRAVES would be empty on Resurrection day which would mean again that we would all who are in heaven need to do a mass migration back to the grave from heaven before Jesus would be able to fulfill prophetic scripture and raise us from the grave. I mean Jesus wouldn't be able to raise us from the grave unless we were all in the grave Right? Wouldn't that be a very embarrassing event for Jesus if when He came back for us the only Christians who would be raised would be only the living because all of the graves of those who are supposed to be sleeping in the grave and in Christ would already be empty when He got here.

I do believe that event would make God a bald face lier if all of the graves were already empty and we were already in heaven before Jesus came back to collect us. Do you think God would get a good out of making Jesus look like a fool in front of the whole world? I can hear Jesus now. Whoops! What happened? Where are they?

1 Thessalonians looks like to me that it's saying people who are asleep spiritually are still saved in Jesus, will go to Heaven just as well as the people who are alive spiritually and saved in Jesus. So don't lack education of my words and think that the super Christian will have a better chance of going to Heaven than the one who didn't do as much, etc. All who have believed in Jesus will go with me! The last go first, the first go last sort of thing. Also, those who are saved in Jesus who are in the grave shall rise first and all the Christians left alive will gather together with them in the clouds to be with the Lord forever. It doesn't say that when we die, we will go straight to heaven right away. Sure, it will seem like we will because when we are dead, the Bible says we know nothing. Trust me folks, this isn't that scary or wrong when you think about it.

I think the problem is people get so into the symbolisms and parables, etc etc of Scripture that they stop taking the Bible literally. They think too hard instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to guide them in reading. I bet that not a lot of people pray before reading Scripture to ask God to show them the Truth. imho

I just don't believe that it will be "Beam me up Jesus!". It doesn't work like that. It just makes no sense. And further, the Bible never gives a clue that some of us will be able to enjoy the Glorious Unfathomable Breathtaking Heaven, Eternity before others will. We will all experience it at the same time. I truly believe that's why the Bible says the last will go first and the first will go last to show an equality.

Very well said.

[Massorite]

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

I did not vote for this topic because I have not studied Scripture yet on this topic. I do not lean on my own understanding however when I read this verse, I see that we will not be with the Lord until the day He comes down from Heaven to get us. So, when we die, we do stay in the ground, dead but not disheveled because we know nothing while we are dead:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (King James Version)

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

So, we have no knowledge of time and no knowledge of anything until the day our Lord comes to get us and we will meet with Him in the air.

Do I have that right?

It's still confusing to me because whenever I heard people telling me that I will be in the ground until the day He returns, I used to become furious because I wanted to be with Him right away and thought that was unfair. But now that I see that Scripture says the dead know nothing, well that makes me feel a bit better about this. If this is the way it will happen.

Yes you got it very right! As the bible does not say "when you die you will go to heaven" anywhere. Those that like to believe that we do go to heaven as soon as we die quote scripture that says "To be absent from the body is to be in the presents of the Lord". The problem with that is the fact that 2 words are ignored in that verse. They are " Willing Rather". In the verse Paul is telling us that we are "WILLING RATHER to be absent from the body" When the word "Willing Rather" are left out of the quote it changes the meaning of the verse. It turns the verse into a falsely quoted verse and it is sin to mislead any one by omitting words of a verse to change the meaning of it.

We can agree that in the Old Testament righteous people died and went to paradise (which is now empty). but in the new testament, you're claiming, people don't go anywhere but sleep? where is this verse found of the process changing?

Prove it! Show me in the bible where it is written "Paradise is empty". All that you have to do is look up the word "sleep" in your Strong Concordance and then look at every single verse where the word sleep shows up and then you can find the verse for your self. But for the sack of argument I will give you a few.Matthew 9:24 These are the words of Jesus "for the maid is not dead but sleeps". John 11:11 "Our friend Lazarus sleeps" again the words of Jesus.

Luke 8:52 "Weep not; she is NOT DEAD BUT SLEEPS" and once again the words of Jesus. In these verses the word "sleep" has been changed from the word "rest" in the Hebrew.

Daniel 12:13 "But go your way TILL THE END BE; for you shall REST and stand in your lot (appointed God job) AT THE END OF DAYS". Not only does this verse tell us that Daniel will rest/sleep in death but he will also do his God job again at the end of days. IE In our future. Daniel will be one of the two witnesses.

Another point that you and many others miss is that the ONLY saints that will be raised from the grave when the resurrection day comes will be only those who excepted Jesus into their lives. The rest of the dead both good and bad will not be raised until the great white throne judgment. Captivity captive is not talking about taking every body who was in Paradise out. It is talking about taking control of and defeating death and has nothing to do with Paradise. Through out the bible the word "captivity" is always used to speak of the living not the dead.

What do you think God meant when He said in Amos 9:14 " And I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them etc etc" Today the waste cities are built and are being built because God has once again taken His people under His control.

Jesus took no one to heaven with Him and Paradise is not empty. It full of the righteous who have died both before and after Jesus died. I mean think about it. If all of the old testament saints are in heaven then why do they need to be judged at the great white throne judgment?

[HAZARD]

I did a search for this topic, and did find a few interesting threads about it, but from what I could find, none of them were polls which could gauge how many people believed in the Rapture or not. The basic question - Is the Bible clear on the definite Rapture occuring, or is the complete lack of early historical writings, particularly from some of the greatest minds in Christian history, evidence that there are other interpretations of these verses???

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

The Rapture is a very common belief among many Christians today. But has it always been so?

It may come as a surprise to many Christians, but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 A.D. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned a syllable about it - Further reading

There exists at least one 18th century and two 19th century Pre-Tribulation references, in a book published in 1788, in the writings of a Catholic priest Emmanuel Lacunza [9] in 1812, and by John Nelson Darby himself in 1827.[10] However, both the book published in 1788 and the writings of Lacunza have opposing views regarding their interpretations, as well.

The rise in belief in the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture is sometimes attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald (a follower of Edward Irving), who in 1830 had a vision that was later[11] published in 1861.

The popularization of the term is associated with teaching of John Nelson Darby, prominent among the Plymouth Brethren, and the rise of premillennialism and dispensationalism in English-speaking churches at the end of the 19th century - Further reading

______________________________________

Hi.

If people believe in a rapture or do not believe in a rapture, is irrevelant. What the Scriptures say about a rapture is.

Scriptures plainly show that Jesus will return and take His saints out of this world before the tribulation. He will later return with them and the armies of Heaven to put down all rebellion and all sin.

The rapture is a distinct event in itself and takes place at least seven years before the second coming of christ.

The rapture takes place before the tribulation, and the second coming after the tribulation.

The rapture is the time when Christ comes FOR the saints (1 Thess. 4:13-17), and the second coming is when He comes back to the Earth WITH them (Zech. 14:1-5; Jude 14; Rev. 19:11-21).

At the rapture, Christ takes the saints to heaven (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16; Col. 3:4), and at the second coming He Leaves Heaven with them (Rev. 19 11-21).

At the rapture Christ does not come to Earth (1 thess.4:16) but at the second coming He does (Zech.14:14; Matt. 24:29-31). Since

Christ does not come to earth at the rapture, so the rapture cannot be called the second coming of Christ.

God during the Old testament time brought His people through the various plagues, and problems which He inflicted upon Israels enemies. He also left Israel and allowed them to be overcome and dispersed throughout the nations because of their sins and disbelief. Had God allowed Noah and his family to die in the flood there would be no people left alive to this day, unless God were to start over and re-create man again.

There has been a marked change in God's attitude toward humanity in general, from that of mercy (Rev. 1-3) to that of judgment (Rev. 6-19). Rev. 4 - 5 pictures the raptured church and Old testament saints with God in Heaven before the tribulation.

We know that from the inauguration of the church untill its rapture is a period of extended mercy and leniency without judgments from Heaven, but from the rapture untill and including the second advent of Christ, judgments are predominant. The seals and the first six trumpets (Rev. 6:1-9:21) take place in the first three and one half years of the Week, or the lesser tribulation. The sixth seal and the whole seven trumpets reveal terrible judgments on Earth from Heaven as do the seven vials during the last three and one half years of the week, or great tribulation. The infernal designs of Antichrist inspired by the dragon and the satanic prince of Grecia out of the Abyss (Rev. 11:7; 17:8) constitute this latter tribulation which calls forth the vial judgments of God.

The judgments themselves in either part of the Week do not make the tribulation. They are sent because of the tribulation.

Scarcely anyone admits that the church will undergo the tribulation. Some who believe that the church is not caught up untill the middle of the Week make the mistake of placing fulfillment of the seals and trumpets in the last three and one half years, in order to correspond with their conviction that the church is not here during that time.

[exrockstar]

If all of the old testament saints are in heaven then why do they need to be judged at the great white throne judgment?

you gave a lot of information that it's hard to address at once.

so you think that the old testament saints will be judged at the white throne?

if they are waiting for judgement then what do you think about:

Revelation 4:4

Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

if you believe all the Old Testament saints will be judged at the white throne and NO ONE is in heaven then how did these 24 elders

get into heaven? Christ's return to earth is in Rev 19 following the sequence of events in Revelations.