Left Behind - will there be a "Rapture"?

[jesusiskingofkings]

Also concering Mark 13; the disciples are asking Jesus three questions not just one question lets go back to verse 1; but lets use Matthew 24 instead of Mark, there is more detail on this in Mathew 24:1 reads: 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Refering to 70 A.D when Titus burned down the temple.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Questions in verse three from the disciples to Jesus:

1. when will these things be

2. what will be the sign of your coming back (Rapture)

3. what will be the sign of the end of the world. (2nd coming)

So you can't take matthew 24 or mark 13 to describe one event, there are several events going on here.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. compare with 1Corinthains 15:51-52: which reads: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. As we can see in both Matthew 24:31; and 1Corinthians 15:51-52 Trumpets are used here, this is a Rapture verse.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. ( the rapture is imminent) there are no verses that tell us when the rapture will take place. such as here in verse 36; this is a Rapture verse.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

verse 29-30 of matthew 24; Jesus is speaking about the Tribulation, and after the Tribulation He will return for the second coming, after the 7 years are up.

Note How do we know that verse 36 is a rapture verse and not a 2nd coming verse, because Daniel 12:11-12, gives us an Ideal of the time of the 2nd coming of Christ. Daniel 12:11-12 reads: 11 "From the time the daily sacrifice is stopped and the sacrilegious object that causes desecration is set up to be worshiped, there will be 1,290 days.

12 And blessed are those who wait and remain until the end of the 1,335 days! Dan 12:11-12 (NLT)

verse 13, The Lord tells Daniel :13 "As for you, go your way until the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days, you will rise again to receive the inheritance set aside for you." So in the context of verse 13; verse 11 and 12 of Daniel 12 are speaking of the end of time. Dan 12:13 (NLT)

Blessings Spiritman

Blessings

Bob

For the elects sake it(tibulation matt.24:22,mar. 13:20) will be shortened, so when I see these things I know it is near, but not when the end will be. Even without Jesus saying it will be shortened for our sake, how do we know the date it starts, and ends? The anti-christ is going to come in with flateries, so how do we know it's him until he's already been in power? And from when, cenetor, congressman, president(just useing U.S. formate to show point, not that I think he's comming from U.S.), ect. just from what possition in his career marks the beginning of his reign? So I'm not going to know the end date, just it's at the door. Luke 21:28 When these things BEGAIN to come to pass, THEN look up, and lift up your heads,for your redemption DRAWS NEAR. Daniel 12:1-2 And at that time shall Micheal stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book. 2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Rev. 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, niether had recieved his mark upon their forheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev.20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to thier works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delievered up the dead which were in them,: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. I see from these scriptures that at his comming, He is only comming for His children, and they will have 1,000 years with Him. Then he will raise everyone for the white throne judgement. I do not see a secret rapture from these scriptures, just that like He destroyed the earth when noah was on the ark, and sodom and gamorrah was destroyed when Lot left, He will destroy the earth at His comming when we are caught up in the air with Him. The very next chapter of Rev. 21 talks of the new heaven and earth, and that there will not be a need for a sun because the Lamb of God will be the light. Where the streets are made of gold, and walls of jasper. A wonderful new earth were sin will not be present.

[spiritman]

Also concering Mark 13; the disciples are asking Jesus three questions not just one question lets go back to verse 1; but lets use Matthew 24 instead of Mark, there is more detail on this in Mathew 24:1 reads: 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Refering to 70 A.D when Titus burned down the temple.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Questions in verse three from the disciples to Jesus:

1. when will these things be

2. what will be the sign of your coming back (Rapture)

3. what will be the sign of the end of the world. (2nd coming)

So you can't take matthew 24 or mark 13 to describe one event, there are several events going on here.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. compare with 1Corinthains 15:51-52: which reads: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. As we can see in both Matthew 24:31; and 1Corinthians 15:51-52 Trumpets are used here, this is a Rapture verse.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. ( the rapture is imminent) there are no verses that tell us when the rapture will take place. such as here in verse 36; this is a Rapture verse.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

verse 29-30 of matthew 24; Jesus is speaking about the Tribulation, and after the Tribulation He will return for the second coming, after the 7 years are up.

Note How do we know that verse 36 is a rapture verse and not a 2nd coming verse, because Daniel 12:11-12, gives us an Ideal of the time of the 2nd coming of Christ. Daniel 12:11-12 reads: 11 "From the time the daily sacrifice is stopped and the sacrilegious object that causes desecration is set up to be worshiped, there will be 1,290 days.

12 And blessed are those who wait and remain until the end of the 1,335 days! Dan 12:11-12 (NLT)

verse 13, The Lord tells Daniel :13 "As for you, go your way until the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days, you will rise again to receive the inheritance set aside for you." So in the context of verse 13; verse 11 and 12 of Daniel 12 are speaking of the end of time. Dan 12:13 (NLT)

Blessings Spiritman

Blessings

Bob

For the elects sake it(tibulation matt.24:22,mar. 13:20) will be shortened, so when I see these things I know it is near, but not when the end will be. Even without Jesus saying it will be shortened for our sake, how do we know the date it starts, and ends?

The anti-christ is going to come in with flateries, so how do we know it's him until he's already been in power? And from when, cenetor, congressman, president(just useing U.S. formate to show point, not that I think he's comming from U.S.), ect. just from what possition in his career marks the beginning of his reign? So I'm not going to know the end date, just it's at the door. Luke 21:28 When these things BEGAIN to come to pass, THEN look up, and lift up your heads,for your redemption DRAWS NEAR. Daniel 12:1-2 And at that time shall Micheal stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book. 2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Rev. 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, niether had recieved his mark upon their forheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev.20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to thier works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delievered up the dead which were in them,: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. I see from these scriptures that at his comming, He is only comming for His children, and they will have 1,000 years with Him. Then he will raise everyone for the white throne judgement. I do not see a secret rapture from these scriptures, just that like He destroyed the earth when noah was on the ark, and sodom and gamorrah was destroyed when Lot left, He will destroy the earth at His comming when we are caught up in the air with Him. The very next chapter of Rev. 21 talks of the new heaven and earth, and that there will not be a need for a sun because the Lamb of God will be the light. Where the streets are made of gold, and walls of jasper. A wonderful new earth were sin will not be present.

Greetings brother,

You asked: For the elects sake it(tibulation matt.24:22,mar. 13:20) will be shortened, so when I see these things I know it is near, but not when the end will be. Even without Jesus saying it will be shortened for our sake, how do we know the date it starts, and ends?

my response: I never said; " that we knew the date of the begining of the Tribulation period, or the rapture, in fact we don't. The closest we can get to knowing that Is to look at the signs, that Jesus gave us, looking at these we know the time is near.

Daniel 12: 11-13; is refering to the time of Christs 2nd coming, when He will return to earth, to rule. it (Daniel 12:11-13 is not refereing to the Rapture or knowing when the tribulation begins, only when the Tribulation ends, and Christ come back.

After the Rapture of the Church, then the tribulation will start, the tribulation period will last 7 years. Then Christ will return at the end of the 7 years.

you asked: The anti-christ is going to come in with flateries, so how do we know it's him until he's already been in power?

my response: According to 2Thess2:1-10; Christians shouldn't have to worry about the ant-Christ, verse 6 tells us, that there is a restrainer,(Holy spirit) that is holding him (the antichrist) back. After the Restrainer is taken out of the way (Rapture), he the anti-chirst will be revealed. How do we know that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. A man can not hold back the power of satan, only the Holy Spirit can, and the Holy Spirit is sealed in us. John 14:16-17 (NLT)16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. 17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth.

you stated: And from when, cenetor, congressman, president(just useing U.S. formate to show point, not that I think he's comming from U.S.), ect. just from what possition in his career marks the beginning of his reign? So I'm not going to know the end date, just it's at the door.

my response: Daniel 12:11-12: reads: 11

[spiritman]

2 Thessalonians 2:1ff "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way decieve you, for it will not come unless the apostacy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

To me it is so clear, I am unable to wrap my brain around why it is not. Could someone please explain to me how it is that Paul clearly said our gathering to Jesus will not come until the apostacy is revealed, yet you are unable to believe it?

It took many years for the false pre-trib concept to be drilled into millions of believers and the concept won't easily go away.

My precious brother,

The only thing going away, is the true Christian, and that in the twinkling of an eye

[spiritman]

You can't argue with the orginal Greek manuscripts, the word for caught up is Harpazo, caught up, snatched away. sorry but you have to take the Bible at what it says. Not what others say it says. I don't mean to sound brash brother but Your study sources contradict the scriptures therefore they are inaccurate.

Spiritman

Not to sound brash either, but then why is it that not a single Christian writer for 1700 years after Jesus ever mentioned it? Why was it not until 1830 that even the concept of being "taken up" into heaven came about. That by necessity doesn't mean that there isn't a Rapture, but you do have to somehow explain why some of the greatest theological minds in Christianity never mentioned the concept in any of their writings. For me, the logical conclusion is that the early Church fathers had other implications of 1 Thessalonians 4. Otherwise it would have been mentioned.

For the record, I haven't actually given any interpretation on these passages, so I'm not taking what others say about "it" (the Rapture). I'm simply looking at the history of the concept and wondering why it was only in the 19th Century that it ever became Church doctrine. Before that time, if you'd mentioned being caught up in the clouds, it's very possible they would have looked at you like you were a little perculiar. At the very least, we have to find a reason why God would keep the Rapture a secret from the early Christians and reveal it only after the 19th Century.

Greetings precious brother in Christ; you asked: why is it that not a single Christian writer for 1700 years after Jesus ever mentioned the rapture? Why was it not until 1830 that even the concept of being "taken up" into heaven came about. That by necessity doesn't mean that there isn't a Rapture, but you do have to somehow explain why some of the greatest theological minds in Christianity never mentioned the concept in any of their writings. For me, the logical conclusion is that the early Church fathers had other implications of 1 Thessalonians 4. Otherwise it would have been mentioned.

My response: There other writters who claim the rapture before this time period His name is Paul, and He wrote the book of 1st Thessalonians, it's time period is from 51 or 52 A.D. long before the above mentioned dates. As far as Christian writers go discussing or not discusing anything; the Bible is the first measuring stick that has to be used, not commentaries or other such writtings. If other extra Biblical material, such as commentaries or any other material contradict the scriptures then they are to be disguarded, (the Bible is always right). if you can come up with another definiton that fits the context in 1Thess 4:13-17 for Harpazo, then I'll listen, but in most cases when dealing with someone that is taken up to the third heaven or tranported in a supernatural manner, this word Harpazo, and the definition; (to catch up, snatch away, pluck up with sudden force is used).

2 Cor 12:2-4 (NASB)for example the following scriptures: 2corinthinans 12:2-4 reads: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago

[spiritman]

name='Rufus of Cyrene' date='Jun 27 2008, 08:12 PM' post='1211014']

name='spiritman' post='1211000' date='Jun 27 2008, 03:34 PM']e name='Rufus of Cyrene' post='1210258' date='Jun 26 2008, 12:01 PM'][e name=spiritman' post='1209973' date='Jun 25 2008, 06:48 PM]e name='ParanoidAndroid' post='1205568' date='Jun 17 2008, 10:10 AM']I did a search for this topic, and did find a few interesting threads about it, but from what I could find, none of them were polls which could gauge how many people believed in the Rapture or not. The basic question - Is the Bible clear on the definite Rapture occuring, or is the complete lack of early historical writings, particularly from some of the greatest minds in Christian history, evidence that there are other interpretations of these verses???

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

The Rapture is a very common belief among many Christians today. But has it always been so?

It may come as a surprise to many Christians, but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 A.D. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned a syllable about it - Further reading

There exists at least one 18th century and two 19th century Pre-Tribulation references, in a book published in 1788, in the writings of a Catholic priest Emmanuel Lacunza [9] in 1812, and by John Nelson Darby himself in 1827.[10] However, both the book published in 1788 and the writings of Lacunza have opposing views regarding their interpretations, as well.

The rise in belief in the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture is sometimes attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald (a follower of Edward Irving), who in 1830 had a vision that was later[11] published in 1861.

The popularization of the term is associated with teaching of John Nelson Darby, prominent among the Plymouth Brethren, and the rise of premillennialism and dispensationalism in English-speaking churches at the end of the 19th century - Further reading

[spiritman]

Still trying to figure out where Yoda and the Wookie fit in to all of this.

Ah! the star wars fan, maybe you can answer this for me Rufus, since no one else in your group seems to be able to, I've asked it I don't know how many times.

if there is no rapture, then why in 1thess 4:13-17 which reads: 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout , with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The word for Caught up in the greek in verse 17 is Harpazo; its meaning is to be caught up, snatched away by force, plucked out. Also why are all the examples using this (the word Harpazo) in scripture are of people being taken to the third heaven?

other examples using the word Harpazo.

2 Corinthians 12:2 reads: I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Revelation 12:5 reads: 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Your mission luke sky walker if you decide to except it is to show me another definition of Harpazo (it has to fit the context) that can be used instead of the current defintion. this shouldn't be to hard for a star wars fan.

[spiritman]

Still trying to figure out where Yoda and the Wookie fit in to all of this.

Ah! the star wars fan, maybe you can answer this for me Rufus, since no one else in your group seems to be able to, I've asked it I don't know how many times.

if there is no rapture, then why in 1thess 4:13-17 which reads: 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout , with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The word for Caught up in the greek in verse 17 is Harpazo; its meaning is to be caught up, snatched away by force, plucked out. Also why are all the examples using this (the word Harpazo) in scripture are of people being taken to the third heaven?

other examples using the word Harpazo.

2 Corinthians 12:2 reads: I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Revelation 12:5 reads: 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Your mission luke sky walker if you decide to except it is to show me another definition of Harpazo (it has to fit the context) that can be used instead of the current defintion. this shouldn't be to hard for a star wars fan.

It is not the definition of 'harpazo' that is at issue here; it is the overall interpretation of the data. 'Harpazo' is a derivation of 'haraiomai' meaning 'to seize for oneself.' But, according to the above, what we have here is a case of special pleading. i.e. where did Enoch go? Genesis mentions nothing about the third heaven.

I have no doubt that there will be an event that corresponds to what Paul describes in 1 Thess. 4, either. It is the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture that I take exception to - it is false doctrine based on faulty reasoning from false premises. The logic is not certain where the Son is concerned, Sarek.

Since you don't know how to interprete the defintion correctly of Harpazo let me do it for you:

You can't just take any word in the Greek and hebrew defintion and fit it in where you want it to go. it has to fit the context.

for example. The english word run has several different defintions. I will put on my jogging shoes and go for a run. or

I have a run in my pantyhose. example of bad context usage: I will put on my jogging shoes and go for a I have a run in my panty hose.

The same word Run, two different meanings or definitions. but let's look to see which defintion fits the one for Harpazo.

1thess 4:13-17: the verse in question is verse 17 it reads: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now let's use your defintion verse 17 read with the word haraiomai'.

verse 17 : Then we which are alive and remain shall be seize for oneself together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Can you say crash and burn, the logic using this definiton makes no sense. Now lets read it with Harpazo

17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be snatched up, with them (resurrected saints) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

See how the word harpazo flows with the sentence, this what is meant by fitting the context. it has to make sense.

I love you brother but give it up. nice try though. almost but no way.

[Guest]

a duty to speak up when I hear and see scripture being twisted and misused to lead people astray...and so do you.

Bless You

This Resurrection Issue

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

Because Of The One Who Shouts

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Matthew 9:24

Will Soon Just Be History

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-6

So Awake Sleepers

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Ephesians 5:14

And Believe

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:36

And Be Blessed Beloved Of The LORD

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

[spiritman]

Isaiah 26 is a song of rejoicing. It is the third in a series of four sermons. It breaks down into four stanzas. vv. 1-9 is praise to the Lord as Israel's defender, vv 10-14 speaks of the doom of persistent wrongdoers, vv 15-19 is the answer to Israel's prayer for deliverance and vv 20- 27:1 is an appeal for the the hearer to take refuge in God alone. Taken in context, 26:20-27:1 are the moral of the story told in the previous verses. It's not a prediction and it certainly is not a promise. It is poetry. Isaiah is warning of the coming judgment on the nation of Israel from Babylon. From Isaiah's point of view, it was an event yet to happen. From our point of view, it has already been fulfilled. Isaiah wrote some 750 years before John and Paul were born and it stretches credulity to the breaking point to propose a linkage between this passage, 2 Thess. 4:13-17 and Revelation 19:7-9. Isaiah had no knowledge of John or Paul. Therefore, it is invalid to suggest that Isaiah was referring to John or Paul or both.

So when you can't make sense of something you just allegorize it. Sorry that doesn't work, you have to use proper Herumentics (The science of interpreting Biblical text) when dealing with passages you don't understand.

Not at all. Proper hemeneutics also requires an understanding of the various literary forms (parable, allegory, metaphor, poetry, narrative, etc.) in which the many books of the Bible are written. That is the control for interpretation and application. I take my example from the Bereans and I reserve the right to disagree with anyone who proposes to teach doctrine based on faulty logic and sloppy scholarship, especially when that individual in willing to resort to reductio ad absurdum or argumentum ad bacculum. I have a God-given right to think for myself and a duty to speak up when I hear and see scripture being twisted and misused to lead people astray...and so do you.

all I hear is you going on yak yak, but I don't see you listing any sources for you comments, I don't see you showing me how you came up with your interpretations. All I hear you say is because I said that's the way it is. I'm sorry but that doesn't cut it.

[spiritman]

Ok,

this is useless, I know what the Greek word is for caught up, and the correct defintion for the word. So I will not be swayed by people that don't know how to use proper Humenitics, And ignore other scripture to fit their own interpretation. you have not offered not one thread of evidence that can't be refuted. If a person tells the truth it will not be able to be refuted.

I've refuted you several times. and your poor attempt at correcting me is in vain.

I think you might want to consider going to school to learn proper methods of interpretation.

I'm finished here.