Is there a Hell?

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (man @ Jul 14 2008, 03:25 AM)

The verses you posted say nothing about non-existence.

Exactly what part of the word "destruction" was unclear, particularly, passages such as "their punishment will be destruction"??? As I said, I have never heard "destruction" used as a synonym for "punishment". Have you? I haven't. Never in literature that I have ever read. "Destruction" has always had the implications of being destroyed forever, completely devastated, wasted, and other synonyms.

2 Thess. 1:9, Paul does not use the word destruction to mean annihilation, as the rest of the verse indicates (apo prosōpou tou kuriou) Rather, it is used in the sense of an eternal state of separation from God.

The fact that the Bible refers to this as "eternal destruction" would also indicate that it is a continuous state of existence. It is not a metaphor for punishment (again, you are misusing the concept of a metaphor as you seem prone to do) but rather it denotes the nature of the punishment being inflicted.

When taking the term destruction, you need to look at how it is used. In the following verses, it does not mean annihilation (Mat 7:13; 2Th 2:3; Phi 3:19), but an eternal condition of perdition, condmenation and separation from God as indicated by the Greek eis apōleian

[Guest shiloh357]

I agree that there is no second chance once we leave this world (actually, that's not entirely true, since the Bible says nothing of those who grew up never hearing of Jesus, there could be a "first chance" for these people once they are alreay dead, but it is speculation).

Nope, it is exactly true, I don't think anyone leaves this world without a chance. God is not hamstrung and limited by the lack of missionaries and human agents to make Himself known to those who have never been reached by Christians. God is completely consistent in his dealings with mankind.

I can't see God punishing finite sins with an infinite punishment.

The problem is that God isn't punishing sins. The Bible says that Jesus has already borne the punishment for our sins. God is not punishing anyone for anything because God's justice has been satisfied where sin is concerned. So, your premise is already off on that part. the "punishment" is for the most part self-inflicted, and that is what makes hell so tragic. No one has to go there.

If a person chooses continued separation from God, hell is the existance they have chosen and God respects their decision. He is not condemning anyone or sending anyone there on the basis of what they have done.

Edited to Add>>> By the way sin is never "finite." Sin always has eternal consequences.

[ParanoidAndroid]

2 Thess. 1:9, Paul does not use the word destruction to mean annihilation, as the rest of the verse indicates (apo prosōpou tou kuriou) Rather, it is used in the sense of an eternal state of separation from God.

Not to sound harsh, but what gives you the impression that Paul is using this is any other context other than annihilation, as it appears in the other passages it is used in?

The fact that the Bible refers to this as "eternal destruction" would also indicate that it is a continuous state of existence. It is not a metaphor for punishment (again, you are misusing the concept of a metaphor as you seem prone to do) but rather it denotes the nature of the punishment being inflicted.

The destruction is eternal - it is forever. Sounds simple to me. It appears that in this case it is you who are mixing your metaphors. I think you are referring to our discsussion on the Creation story from that other thread. If you read my responses to Nebula, you might get a better idea of what my intentions were in that passage. Here, I am looking at it literally - it is YOU who is trying to put a metaphorical spin on the word "destruction", and without a shred of evidence.

When taking the term destruction, you need to look at how it is used. In the following verses, it does not mean annihilation (Mat 7:13; 2Th 2:3; Phi 3:19), but an eternal condition of perdition, condmenation and separation from God as indicated by the Greek eis apōleian

apōleia

ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

According to my Dictionary there is only the possibility of overtones of an eternal condition (ruin or loss - phyysical, spiritual or eternal). Destruction or death is also possible, such as in Acts 8:20, Acts 25:16, plus at least half a dozen other passages translated as "destruction" but you could simply use the same argument against those as you did with these ones here

Again, thank you for the discussion,

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jul 14 2008, 04:18 AM)

2 Thess. 1:9, Paul does not use the word destruction to mean annihilation, as the rest of the verse indicates (apo prosōpou tou kuriou) Rather, it is used in the sense of an eternal state of separation from God.

Not to sound harsh, but what gives you the impression that Paul is using this is any other context other than annihilation, as it appears in the other passages it is used in?

Like I said, one only needs to look at HOW the word is being used. Simply applying the dictionary definition to a given word is almost never sufficient in English, why do you think it would be different in Greek.

The key is not to interpret within the framework of an agenda, but simply to allow the text to speak for itself.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jul 14 2008, 04:18 AM)

The fact that the Bible refers to this as "eternal destruction" would also indicate that it is a continuous state of existence. It is not a metaphor for punishment (again, you are misusing the concept of a metaphor as you seem prone to do) but rather it denotes the nature of the punishment being inflicted.

The destruction is eternal - it is forever. Sounds simple to me. It appears that in this case it is you who are mixing your metaphors. I think you are referring to our discsussion on the Creation story from that other thread. If you read my responses to Nebula, you might get a better idea of what my intentions were in that passage. Here, I am looking at it literally - it is YOU who is trying to put a metaphorical spin on the word "destruction", and without a shred of evidence.

No, I am not using metaphors at all. I am just letting author speak for himself and allowing the pure meaning to come to the surface, you are rejecting the intention of the author because you are afraid of the obvious conclusion it will lead to. Stop trying to use the Bible to fit your agenda and allow the text to speak for itself.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jul 14 2008, 04:18 AM)

When taking the term destruction, you need to look at how it is used. In the following verses, it does not mean annihilation (Mat 7:13; 2Th 2:3; Phi 3:19), but an eternal condition of perdition, condmenation and separation from God as indicated by the Greek eis apōleian

apōleia

ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

According to my Dictionary there is only the possibility of overtones of an eternal condition (ruin or loss - phyysical, spiritual or eternal). Destruction or death is also possible, such as in Acts 8:20, Acts 25:16, plus at least half a dozen other passages translated as "destruction" but you could simply use the same argument against those as you did with these ones here

The problem is that you are usig a Strong's exhaustive dictionary which only gives you EVERY possible meaning of the word, but does not show which definition applies to which usage in the various and sundry occurrences of the word "destruction" in the NT. You cannot apply ALL of the meanings given to every occurrence. Sometimes, it means annihilation, but in the verses I cited above, it does not.

Simply running to a dictionary is unsatisfactory. It is word usage and context that determine word meaning in a given text.

[ParanoidAndroid]

No, I am not using metaphors at all. I am just letting author speak for himself and allowing the pure meaning to come to the surface, you are rejecting the intention of the author because you are afraid of the obvious conclusion it will lead to. Stop trying to use the Bible to fit your agenda and allow the text to speak for itself.

I could claim the same thing for you, just so you know, and say that it is you who are trying to fit the Bible to your agenda, rather than letting the Bible speak for itself......

The problem is that you are usig a Strong's exhaustive dictionary which only gives you EVERY possible meaning of the word, but does not show which definition applies to which usage in the various and sundry occurrences of the word "destruction" in the NT. You cannot apply ALL of the meanings given to every occurrence. Sometimes, it means annihilation, but in the verses I cited above, it does not.

Simply running to a dictionary is unsatisfactory. It is word usage and context that determine word meaning in a given text.

But from my reading, the verses do support the context of physical destruction

To cut to the chase though, I think, Shiloh, that we are just going to have to disagree on this one. I don't see anywhere in the Bible that condemns to eternal punishment those who have not been granted the gift of eternal life (that's why it's called a "gift"). You obviously disagree. We have different views, and therefore when we read the Bible, the word we use to put in context of that verse/chapter will be skewed by that view. You believe in an eternal punishment. I have not seen evidence of such, and so do not believe it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But more importantly, I don't think this belief is what we would consider an "essential doctrine". While it may be interesting to discuss what happens after we die, there's no way we can ever truly know, even with the Bible (considering the difference of opinion). Suffice it to say, those who believe go to heaven, those that don't believe, do not (ignore for a moment exactly what that opposite is). Since it does not affect the way I live my life, and we all still abide by God's commands to spread the gospel, to share the good news of salvation, then I don't think it matters whether I am right or you are right, or in fact if neither of us are right.

So I will bid you adieu, and wish you the best in the Lord. Prayers and Blessings go with you, my friend

~ Paranoid Android

[BlindSeeker]

. . .I don't think anyone leaves this world without a chance. God is not hamstrung and limited by the lack of missionaries and human agents to make Himself known to those who have never been reached by Christians. God is completely consistent in his dealings with mankind.

Amen. I strongly agree.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jul 14 2008, 04:46 AM)

No, I am not using metaphors at all. I am just letting author speak for himself and allowing the pure meaning to come to the surface, you are rejecting the intention of the author because you are afraid of the obvious conclusion it will lead to. Stop trying to use the Bible to fit your agenda and allow the text to speak for itself.

I could claim the same thing for you, just so you know, and say that it is you who are trying to fit the Bible to your agenda, rather than letting the Bible speak for itself......

No the same thing cannot be said for me. I have no agenda. You refuse to take God at His word. You are trying parse at words and muddy the waters over what is meant. I simply believe the Bible. The Bible teaches that those who die without Christ will live in a state of eternal separation from God. they will not be "annihilated" but will spend eternity in that spiritual condition.

You can rant on and on about how "petty" that makes God look, but you need to simply give up and believe what the Bible teaches.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jul 14 2008, 04:46 AM)

The problem is that you are usig a Strong's exhaustive dictionary which only gives you EVERY possible meaning of the word, but does not show which definition applies to which usage in the various and sundry occurrences of the word "destruction" in the NT. You cannot apply ALL of the meanings given to every occurrence. Sometimes, it means annihilation, but in the verses I cited above, it does not.

Simply running to a dictionary is unsatisfactory. It is word usage and context that determine word meaning in a given text.

But from my reading, the verses do support the context of physical destruction

No they do not support physical destruction, because they are not concerned with physical destruction; that is not even the object the author has in view. The context has to with a spiritual condition. You are trying force that on the text, and you do so with no textual justification.

I don't see anywhere in the Bible that condemns to eternal punishment those who have not been granted the gift of eternal life (that's why it's called a "gift").

You dont' see it because you don't want to see it. You simply want to view the Bible through what you are willing to accept, not on the basis of what is actually stated in the text.

Suffice it to say, those who believe go to heaven, those that don't believe, do not (ignore for a moment exactly what that opposite is).

That cannot, for one minute be ignored.

I don't think it matters whether I am right or you are right, or in fact if neither of us are right.

Are you kidding??? It matters extremely much whether one of us is right or wrong. It speaks to the integrity of the Scriptures for one thing, and if you are not willing to believe what the Bible says on this issue, what else are you willing reject as well???

[Guest shiloh357]

If there is no hell, then just what is it that we are Saved from?

t.

We were SAVED and Liberated from HELL. JESUS overcame Hell and its power of Death. Now it LIFE EVERLASTING or it could be you are NO MORE. But JESUS saved the World that his Father created and gave the world back to his Father through his willingness to give up his spiritual position and became human. Jesus was victorious! The theft on the cross went to heaven with him...the one on the Left was NO MORE because he did not believe God was his rewarder. If you believe in the Promise of God, you'll get it, Jesus saw to that. If you don't you won't. Abraham and them so it afar, but the got it!

Hell was but it is no more. To believe in Hell is to keep Satan alive...to me. Death is a reminder of what we once were.

None of this is true. You are teaching something that is simply unbiblical. Hell is real, and all those who choose continued separation from God will end up in that existence, eternally separated from God.

Jesus overcame death and hell, but there is nothing in the Bible that says He has yet destroyed either one.

Eternal life is Jesus. Eternal life is something you must choose. To have eternal life is to have Jesus living on the inside of you in the person of the Holy Spirit.

[Guest man]

As for Man's comments, I understand the meaning. I am not implying he derives "pleasure" from the ideas of non-Chrsitians suffering, but I do get the distinct impression that unless there is a punishment for those who don't believe (and by "punishmetn", I mean physical torture of some kind), his views won't be validated.

Those are not my views......they come straight from the Word.

"My doctrine" (what I think the Bible teaches)

That's just it............it's what you "think" the bible teaches.

You don't like the idea of eternal punishment, so you take scripture and twist it and mold it to fit into something you can live with.

The Blood of Jesus saves those who put their Trust in his name

Saves them from what? From nonexistence?

Do you not understand that if someone does not exist, they are feeling absolutely nothing. Because they're not there to feel it. If someone doesn't make it into heaven, it's not that big a deal because they will eventually become nothing. So if one was to follow your teachings, there would be no consequence sin. One would simply cease to exist. It wouldn't matter to them if they missed out on eternal life because they wouldn't know.

When someone teaches another person that there is no hell, that there is no eternal punishment, that all those who don't make it into the kingdom simply cease to exist, they are teaching that there is no consequence for sin.

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I also don't think man intended to convey the idea that he would not be satisfied unless nonChristians suffer that is an unfair value to assign to his remarks. None of us take any pleasure in anyone going to hell.

This quote from shiloh357 is dead on.

Thanks.

[irishcowboy]

I am finding that more and more Christians do not believe in a literal hell - with fire and brimestone

What do you think?

• They're nuts
  
• Could be
  
• This is what the bible really says...
  

absolutely, positively, there is Heaven and there is hell, the choice is yours, each is forever. choose wisely.