Women in ministry

[Floatingaxe]

Amen! Pastors and ministers are indeed servants and helpers! That is their high calling.

Prostatis means to help in the sense of the strong lending aid to the weak--not the other way around. Phoebe was "prostatis" just as Caesar was described as "prostatis". He certainly was no weakling helping the strong! No--he lent his assistance as a strong one toward those who required aid.

Phoebe along with many other ministers of the gospel were teachers of truth, offering spiritual food and aid to those in dire need.

[~~ angelique ~~]

You just don't know how many times this conversation actually comes up among pagan women. I have heard many say they wouldn't attend a Christian church because of the bias against women.

I would suggest that a woman coming out of Wicca, where the Goddess is worshiped, that a church with a female pastor might be able to reach them. I understand what the bible says; however, I don't necessarily agree in full with it.

I agree with what someone else said. My example, how can a man (as a pastor) seriously counsel a women on some issues. Please, even on worthy, there are "mens" and "ladies" forums. It doesn't mean that a person is weak just that we're people and people are weak.

Does not the bible state that a woman should not have authority over a man? Then, what is so wrong about having female pastor for the women?

There are some discussions in women's counseling and stuff that just shouldn't be discussed with a man (pastor or not); once again, hence, why even worthy has a male and female.

Anyway, I don't think I'm making my thoughts clear. Thanks.

[exrockstar]

deacons, helpers, assistants...whatever.

if you want to pick titles and roles then argue against this:

1 Timothy 3:8-13 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

This is an understanding that the deacons are male.

Slice it however you want.

[Ovedya]

Phoebe was a pastor...

No, she wasn't. Even for the simple fact that there was no such thing as a "pastor" in the first century church!

There is so much religious and sexist bigotry still influencing today's believers that it takes a major move of the Holy Spirit to bring correction regarding service and ministry. The Holy Spirit doesn't "pass over" people with the "wrong plumbing" when passing out spiritual gifts. (That is a "man" thing.) He pays no regard to gender whatsoever! He is looking for willing hearts to serve the King.

As emotion-packed this statement is, FA, you cannot simply use your compassion to write off the Scriptures. Either they are God-breathed and entuirely correct, or they are corrupted with the misogyny of men. Which do you trust more?

According to today's standards of leadership, Phoebe was indeed a pastor, labels of ministry aside.

Scriptures are God-breathed, but as you know, we live in a society which is heavily influenced still by Greco-Roman philosophy--which is misogynistic, to say the very least. Hence, the exasperating of women's service to God by the misinterpretation of Scripture through the ages.

You're thinking backward. The Bible's standard is not beholden to "today's standard of leadership." You know as well as I do that our standard is far below what God expects of us. We don not conform the Bible to our standard, we must be conformed to its standard.

As to Phoebe being a "pastor" you only have Romans 16:1 which says she was a deaconess. In the first century church there were only two offices in the lcoal churches: elder and deacon. Of those two offices only women were permitted to be deacons (or deaconesses). If there were any comparison between the practices of the first century church as God arranged and today, a modern-day pastor would be comparable to a first century elder. There were no women elders in the first century church.

Indeed I am not thinking backward at all!

You are speaking semantics. There was no such thing as a "deaconess" in Paul's day!

Obviously there was, or he would not have used the term "diakonos," which in this context is a feminine noun - the feminine form of the word from which we get "deacon" in Phil. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:8 and 12. There is no semantics here at all. You are making a presumption where there is none to be made. The text is abundantly clear. Phoebe was not a "pastor" or an elder in the church. She was a "female servant" - a "deaconess" according to the form of speech used.

[Ovedya]

Amen! Pastors and ministers are indeed servants and helpers! That is their high calling.

Prostatis means to help in the sense of the strong lending aid to the weak--not the other way around. Phoebe was "prostatis" just as Caesar was described as "prostatis". He certainly was no weakling helping the strong! No--he lent his assistance as a strong one toward those who required aid.

Phoebe along with many other ministers of the gospel were teachers of truth, offering spiritual food and aid to those in dire need.

Wait a minute. Didn't you just argue above how "Greco/Roman" our culture is - how that is a negative - and now you are using Caesar as an example?

Many saints in the church are ministers of the Gospel offering spiritual food and aid to those in dire need. In fact, that is the gospel to which we all are called. Yet we are no all authorities in the local churches - leaders. We are not all apostles. We are not all elders. You are attempting to blur a line here that is clearly distinguished in Scripture.

[Ovedya]

Phoebe was "prostatis"...

Which literally means "one who presides over the care of another." Romans 16:2 is the only place in the New Testament where this term is used. It is also translated "patroness" which is a title of esteem. Such an esteem by Paul and such a title conferred upon her by Paul, does not in any way make her a "pastor." Paul gave her such a title because of her great love, outpouring, and care for the saints. Therefore Paul recommends her to the saints.

[OneLight]

Amen! Pastors and ministers are indeed servants and helpers! That is their high calling.

Prostatis means to help in the sense of the strong lending aid to the weak--not the other way around. Phoebe was "prostatis" just as Caesar was described as "prostatis". He certainly was no weakling helping the strong! No--he lent his assistance as a strong one toward those who required aid.

Phoebe along with many other ministers of the gospel were teachers of truth, offering spiritual food and aid to those in dire need.

diάkonos: A minister, servant, deacon.

1) one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister

a) the servant of a king

b) a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use

c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink

1 Timothy 3:

Qualifications of Overseers

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Qualifications of Deacons

Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

No matter what we wish His word tells us, God speaks very clearly here. A warning to all, it is unwise to take His word and try to incorporate His words into our personal wishes, building false doctrines according to the desires of our flesh or pride of heart.

1 Corinthians 12:27-28

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

It is clearly stated that a women can be neither an overseer or a deacon. This leaves another form of servant. Anything else contradicts Gods word.

In His Love,

OneLight

[sistercindy]

"No matter what we wish His word tells us, God speaks very clearly here. A warning to all, it is unwise to take His word and try to incorporate His words into our personal wishes, building false doctrines according to the desires of our flesh or pride of heart. "

Amen OneLight.....well said...and something I will certainly take to remembering....

God Bless

[Ovedya]

Amen! Pastors and ministers are indeed servants and helpers! That is their high calling.

Prostatis means to help in the sense of the strong lending aid to the weak--not the other way around. Phoebe was "prostatis" just as Caesar was described as "prostatis". He certainly was no weakling helping the strong! No--he lent his assistance as a strong one toward those who required aid.

Phoebe along with many other ministers of the gospel were teachers of truth, offering spiritual food and aid to those in dire need.

diάkonos: A minister, servant, deacon.

1) one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister

a) the servant of a king

b) a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use

c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink

1 Timothy 3:

Qualifications of Overseers

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Qualifications of Deacons

Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

No matter what we wish His word tells us, God speaks very clearly here. A warning to all, it is unwise to take His word and try to incorporate His words into our personal wishes, building false doctrines according to the desires of our flesh or pride of heart.

1 Corinthians 12:27-28

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

It is clearly stated that a women can be neither an overseer or a deacon. This leaves another form of servant. Anything else contradicts Gods word.

In His Love,

OneLight

Overseers and deacons are different offices. Overseers coordinates with the eldership: they are elders (Phil. 1:1; Acts 20:28) 1 Tim. 3:1-2 is talking about "Episkopos" or overseers, not "Diakonos" or deacons, as the shift in vese 8 indicates. Just wanted to make that distinction. Although 1 Tim 3:8 talks about deacons being husbands, the fact that Phoebe was referred to with the feminine form of this word seems to indicate that she was also a deacon (deaconess). Also there is verse 11 which implies a reference to deacons. So, although verse 8 talks of men, verse 11 talks of women in the context of serving (Diakonos).

[Smalcald]

It comes down to what we are talking about. I simply don't see how we can get around the passages quoted by One Light and others.

However I don't think those passages have anything to do with women in "ministry", which by the way is a modern term and I think most people simply mean involved in the Church in various roles, which women indeed are called to do. Obviously women were called out throughout scripture for extremely important roles. You can't read the New Testament and not see that women are called to preach and prophesize and serve and so forth.

However nowhere in scripture does a women ever hold the role of either Priest in the Old Testament or Bishop in the New, it just is not there. Of course if you are in a Church which has no defined roles or offices, where preaching is seen as the same thing as being a minister etc, then I don't know how much it really matters. I think someone had brought that up earlier that they did not recognize any formal offices anyway. So if that is the case then I don't see how you could deny women from something that does not exist.