Floatingaxe Posted August 14, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Mothers and fathers were charged with teaching their children the ways of God. When did it become a paternal duty? Was it because men kept women from learning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Mothers and fathers were charged with teaching their children the ways of God. When did it become a paternal duty? Was it because men kept women from learning? But it was the chief responsibility of the Father before God. The Father was/is the Priest of the home. You must have missed where I cited above about the wife of a Rabbi Meir a great Torah scholar. Her opinions and rulings are noted the Talmud and her opinions were accepted above those of her own husband!!! There are several examples of where the Talmud holds women and womanhood up to very lofty levels. You also missed the part where I mentioned that the Talmud sees women as having more intelligence than men. It was the Talmud that gave women several honors on Jewish festivals. The problem here is that you don't realize your understanding of the Talmud is woefully incomplete. There is a lot more to it than you have been made aware, and more than I can elaborate on here. Jewish culture, imperfect as it is, even today, is far and away much more advanced than most other cultures and civilizations in the world save those in the West where women and women's rights are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishcowboy Posted August 14, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 127 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,248 Content Per Day: 0.88 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/23/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 14, 2008 In the church I grew up in women did not speak in church. They chatted before the service, but during the service women kept silent. Only men preach. Women however have other roles in the church. They take nursery duty and teach Sunday school to children up to preteen, then the men teach. I truly believe this to be the right way. When I met my husband I almost died t when I noticed that his mother took up headship in the home. She says grace before meals, and he expects me to do the same. I have a very hard time with this idea so grace before meals doesn't get said much around here...but I do thank the Lord silently. I agree that MEN have to stand up and be men again. You guys just let women beat you all to nothing. That is a destructive legalistic view. Men should be doing nursery duty, and teaching children in Sunday School also! What a poor model for our children that teaches them that women are inferior as leaders in the faith, when God never teaches us this, and Jesus never demonstrated it, nor did Paul teach it. my wife and me are one, what she says is so, that is unless i say it is not, i have not had to do that, for she speaks very well. in church, we worship together, we pray together, we work together, in one fellowship we attended, we worked together teaching fifth and sixth grade. we also ran the nursery program as a team. that is how we operate, as a team, two people as one. Teresa speaks, with the authority under the covering of me.... and under the covering of Christ.... if she was not married to me, she would be under the covering of the pastor(s) over her. should there not be a pastor over her, her covering is Christ. she speaks truth, that is Gods Word. the writings you see from Paul when he is speaking from himself, he lets you know it is him.... such as "I will not sit under a woman" there are other times Paul lets us know that it is God that is saying something and not him. in Corinthians, Paul was telling them how to conduct services so taht they were not disruptive, even the men can be disruptive, that is why he told them to limit the amount of messages given in tongues, interpretation and prophecy and such. Paul (I believe) was telling them that they (women) that had questions, needed to wait until they got home and ask then, not being disruptive in the services.... even in the 1900's, in many area;s the Jewish people still gathered in social settings separated, segragated men from the women. in some settings the men were the ones sitting in the center, and the women would be standing around the out side by the wall.... can you imagine how disruptive it would be if every time a woman had a question that she tried hailing her husband ..... Hey Honey, What did he say???? What Does He Mean???? the culture of the time was that men were the ones that were "educated" and the women were not, this does not mean women did not know about God, but might not be able to read the scrolls, I am sure that at least the men could read the scrolls (most of them)... h I believe Paul was more culture minded then we might think, being he was a Sanhedrin above all Sanhedrin... we also know that to be a GOOD Sanhedrin, they were mostly married, maybe not all, there are some that have taught that Paul was divorced or had left his wife to preach the Gospel of Christ, not much different then maybe what Peter and the rest had done, left their families to follow Christ.... not abandoning them, leaving them..... for instance, does any one know the name of Peters wife? how about his mother in laws name? how about the wifes of the other disciples? does anyone know the names of any of the wifes? or if they had them or not? we know Peter had a wife, for Christ healed his mother in law, and his mother in law when she was healed, ministered / served them.... where was Peters wife? We all were given a command........ Go into all the world and preach the Gospel of Christ to All Nations, To All People, to All Languages, To Every Land.... WHO????? All of us.... if women are left out, then they are not to speak about Christ anywhere..... right???? cause they would become PREACHERS if they did...... just somehting to think about.... mike There are many things we do not know about Paul, or what he was thinking or trying to convey..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romans623 Posted August 14, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/02/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1953 Share Posted August 14, 2008 1Co 14:34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church. 1Co 11:13 Judge ye in yourselves: is it seemly that a woman pray unto God unveiled? 1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 1Co 11:16 But if any man seemeth to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. I was doing my Bible study and i am not able to understand if Paul gave this prohibition for a woman to keep silent or not to teach in public due to a tradional Jewish prohibition against women speaking in public. Is this the same prohibition for women to have short hair or the veil themselves? Why is this commandment not enforced in modern day churches? Can I have a Jewish perspective on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romans623 Posted August 14, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/02/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1953 Share Posted August 14, 2008 1Co 14:34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church. 1Co 11:13 Judge ye in yourselves: is it seemly that a woman pray unto God unveiled? 1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 1Co 11:16 But if any man seemeth to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. I was doing my Bible study and i am not able to understand if Paul gave this prohibition for a woman to keep silent or not to teach in public due to a tradional Jewish prohibition against women speaking in public. Is this the same prohibition for women to have short hair or the veil themselves? Why is this commandment not enforced in modern day churches? Can I have a Jewish perspective on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romans623 Posted August 14, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/02/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1953 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Consider several things, here: First: For the Bible to limit the role of pastor, or being able to teach in church to men, is in no way intended to demean women, any more than when God limited the priesthood exclusively to the Tribe of Levi. Even David and Solomon, Kings of Israel, could not go into the House of God as anything more than worshippers. They could not, by law, offer sacrifices as priests. In fact, when the priest Samuel delayed his coming, King Saul who was a Benjamite, offered a sacrifice as a thank offering for a military victory. Samuel told the King that what he did was very wrong and foolish. The act led to the downfall of the King, and the ultimate loss of a dynasty for Saul. My point is that God makes the rules. It is not our place to question Him, second guess Him, resist Him, ignore Him, oppose Him, or criticize Him. For nearly two thousand years, it was universally understood that the role of pastor and teacher in the Church was ordered by God to be filled by men, as opposed to women. Every denomination: Catholic, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, they all had one thing in common: the male was be ordained as Pastor, not the female! It was not until the social upheavals of the 60's, and the rise of the Women's Liberation Movement that women suddenly became restless in their silent roles given them in the Church. Twenty centuries of Biblical precedent was kicked to the curb, and now we see as supposedly acceptable a female clergy. But the Bible says we are not to be be conformed to the World, but Transformed by the Word of God. Women are taking leadership roles in the Church, assuming the responsibilities and title of Pastor: Which would you say was the actual source for this? the Bible or the world? If God was displeased with the King of Israel performing spiritual duties to God, why should I believe now that He is pleased with women in the Church usurping authority over a man, and becoming pastors and teachers in the Church, contrary to God's clear statements on the subject? Romans623 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 14, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 14, 2008 my wife and me are one, what she says is so, that is unless i say it is not, i have not had to do that, for she speaks very well. in church, we worship together, we pray together, we work together, in one fellowship we attended, we worked together teaching fifth and sixth grade. we also ran the nursery program as a team. that is how we operate, as a team, two people as one. Teresa speaks, with the authority under the covering of me.... and under the covering of Christ.... if she was not married to me, she would be under the covering of the pastor(s) over her. should there not be a pastor over her, her covering is Christ. she speaks truth, that is Gods Word. the writings you see from Paul when he is speaking from himself, he lets you know it is him.... such as "I will not sit under a woman" there are other times Paul lets us know that it is God that is saying something and not him. in Corinthians, Paul was telling them how to conduct services so taht they were not disruptive, even the men can be disruptive, that is why he told them to limit the amount of messages given in tongues, interpretation and prophecy and such. Paul (I believe) was telling them that they (women) that had questions, needed to wait until they got home and ask then, not being disruptive in the services.... even in the 1900's, in many area;s the Jewish people still gathered in social settings separated, segragated men from the women. in some settings the men were the ones sitting in the center, and the women would be standing around the out side by the wall.... can you imagine how disruptive it would be if every time a woman had a question that she tried hailing her husband ..... Hey Honey, What did he say???? What Does He Mean???? the culture of the time was that men were the ones that were "educated" and the women were not, this does not mean women did not know about God, but might not be able to read the scrolls, I am sure that at least the men could read the scrolls (most of them)... h I believe Paul was more culture minded then we might think, being he was a Sanhedrin above all Sanhedrin... we also know that to be a GOOD Sanhedrin, they were mostly married, maybe not all, there are some that have taught that Paul was divorced or had left his wife to preach the Gospel of Christ, not much different then maybe what Peter and the rest had done, left their families to follow Christ.... not abandoning them, leaving them..... for instance, does any one know the name of Peters wife? how about his mother in laws name? how about the wifes of the other disciples? does anyone know the names of any of the wifes? or if they had them or not? we know Peter had a wife, for Christ healed his mother in law, and his mother in law when she was healed, ministered / served them.... where was Peters wife? We all were given a command........ Go into all the world and preach the Gospel of Christ to All Nations, To All People, to All Languages, To Every Land.... WHO????? All of us.... if women are left out, then they are not to speak about Christ anywhere..... right???? cause they would become PREACHERS if they did...... just somehting to think about.... mike There are many things we do not know about Paul, or what he was thinking or trying to convey..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 I believe Paul was more culture minded then we might think, being he was a Sanhedrin above all Sanhedrin... we also know that to be a GOOD Sanhedrin, they were mostly married, maybe not all,Paul was a Pharisee, but not a member of the Sanhedrin. there are some that have taught that Paul was divorced or had left his wife to preach the Gospel of Christ, not much different then maybe what Peter and the rest had done, left their families to follow Christ.... not abandoning them, leaving them..... for instance, does any one know the name of Peters wife? how about his mother in laws name? how about the wifes of the other disciples? does anyone know the names of any of the wifes? or if they had them or not? we know Peter had a wife, for Christ healed his mother in law, and his mother in law when she was healed, ministered / served them.... where was Peters wife? LOL, no, no, no. You need to compare apples with apples. The apostles were itinerate. Meaning that they worked for a while and traveled for a while. We have an incomplete picture because the Bible leaves out some information that God felt was not relevant to the story. Paul was a tentmaker. In the first century, all Rabbis had secular jobs. Jesus was a carpenter, Hillel (Israel's greatest sage) was a wood cutter, Shammai (Hillel's rival) was metal worker. That is how Paul supported his ministry. He worked and earned the cash to go on those journeys. God would never have expected a man to divorce his wife for the ministry. It is clear, if we judge from the moral code set forth in the Bible, that Paul, Peter and the other apostles who had wives would have supported them in between missionary journeys. Even today, Billy Graham, covered as much ground a Paul and did not have to leave his wife to do it Both Graham and his wife put God and the ministry ahead of themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HIS girl Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Paul had a wife and was divorced?? THAT - I have N E V E R heard....!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Paul had a wife and was divorced?? THAT - I have N E V E R heard....!!! That is because it is not in the Bible. We have no real evidence that Paul was married, much less divorced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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