3 Plain Statements About The Rapture

[truthbringer]

The parable of the wheat and tares show clearly that it is the wicked who will be removed from the earth first. This totally proves their is no pretrib, secret rapture.

Matthew 13

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Then what do you do with this scripture?

1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Oops. It helps to know who Jesus is talking to, or about, the Church or Israel.

There is no "the church or Israel", we are grafted into the root.

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Romans 11:17-32 (KJV)

If you read the new testament, You will see it mentions three groups of people, The Church, the Jew[The elect] and the Gentile.

[truthbringer]

The scripture plainly says that Jesus is addressing the disciples directly. When they ask him for clarification of what the parable of the wheat and the tares mean, he explains it to them.

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them,

He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

[truthbringer]

I believe in Pre-Trib, but call myself a Pan-Trib: it'll all pan out in the end!

God truly IS in control. Sometimes I think people believe us and our works (or lack thereof) have more to do with salvation than the Holy Spirit does! God doesn't NEED us. He has the rocks and stones, you know.

That's certainly new; pulling quotes from two totally different subject responses to pre-trib posts, and overlapping them with one another. If you really mean what you say, then why didn't you include some overlapped quotes from the pre-trib posts also, quoting both sides?

Pan is from the idea of 'pantheism', the Pan god. Its system believes that everything... is God, that God has no Personal Entity. So as a Christian, I wouldn't advise using that Pan label, not even with good intentions. Pantheism is one of the doctrines being pushed in many churches today by the 'brotherhood of mankind' reasoning, the idea that there are many paths to the same God. We each must decide whether we will make a stand for Christ, or not. There is no middle road, which is what 'pan' represents.

Do you believe God likes disipline?

I assure you He does, for that's the word from which 'disciple' comes from. The problem is our people are lazy. They don't like discipline. Many of them even associate that word discipline with punishment, or tyrants, because of how the enemy has propagandized the term. Discipline merely means training oneself, for work, for study, etc. Without it none of Christ's servants will become the kind of servants He wants. Christ has a Plan, and it involves His servants. It involves putting the Gospel Armor on for these last days to make a stand against His enemies, even to the death if needs be.

There's no room for the lukewarm who think they can take the easy way out of escape.

1Thes 5:3

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

(KJV)

You conveniently left out 1 Thess 5; V4--9, just like all false teachers do, you left the vs out because it blows you doctrine.

Read ch 4, The Church will be raptured first. Keep it its right context.

Now explain how 1st thess 5:4-9 shows the pretrib rapture, and then we will see the tactics of a false teacher.

Truthbringer, you have yet to marvel us with you ability to manipulate, explain to us how 1st thess 5:4-9 proves the pretrib rapture.

If you can't see it it is because you either

[1] dont want to.

[2] Can't get the revelation because of your own pre-conceived idear's.

what you need to do is,

[A] Start the teaching of the secong coming of Christ again, This time with an open mind,

Ask the Holy Spirit [The Spirit of truth] to show you the truth

Read it through the Holy Ghost instead of First imaginations.

[truthbringer]

1 plain statement about the rapture it is at the coming of the Lord.

1st Thessalonians 4:15-17

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

When does that happen?

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

Immediately after the tribulation.

Straight forward and simple. There is no need for long intensive wild interpretations.

This is the truth of scripture and it need not to be manipulated, twisted, or perverted to fit into a false doctrine as pretribbers must do to try and prove their belief.

That is exactly what you have done, Manipulated ans twisted the scriptures to fit your own [Wrong] beliefs.

Again you have diliberatly left out the vs that relate to the rapture.

You ant- pre-trib rapture, take half a teaching, put your own idear's to it and form your own doctrine.

You have to see the whole Bible on the subject,.

[Floatingaxe]

" idears" !!

[Celt]

Ezek 13:17-23

17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

(KJV)

What doctrine does that point to? What doctrine teaches God's people to fly away to escape the coming "great tribulation"? That's talking about the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory, which is a wall built up with tempered mortar that will be washed down when God brings His rain in the last days.

[lydia81]

If I get time I will put some scriptures to prove the Pre-trib rapture.

That would be nice.

Thank you.

The evidence for the Pre-Trib Rapture. Following reasons I am convinced the Bible teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture.

1. Church-Age Believers are promised salvation from wrath. (1 th. 1:9-10, 5:1-9, Rom 5:9 and Re 3:10)

2. The Holy Spirit is to be removed before the tribulation (2 th 2:1-8)

3. In the book of Revelation, the Church is not seen on Earth after ch 3 UNTIL ch 19...(hmm... think about it)

BUT the true church is not the focus on the Great Tribulation recorded in Re 4-18

4. The Church-Age believers are promised mansions in Heaven (Jn. 14:1-3)

5. The translation of Church-Age Saints is said to be IMMINENT (it could happen any moment) whereas the SECOND COMING is said to be preceded by specific signs (1 th 1:9,10 Tit 2:12,13 Mt.24:42-44 Jaames 5:8,9 !Jn 2:28, Re 1:3)

6. The Church is a mystery unrevealed in the O.T. (Ep. 3:1-11)

7. The Church CANNOT be overcome, but the saints of the tribulation will be ( look at and compare Mt 16:18, Rev. 13:7)

8. There are events intervening between the translation and ressurection of the church and the second advent...according to 1 Co. 15:51 , EVERY saved person will be translated at the Rapture. Yet Mt. 25:31-46 shows that when Jesus returns to the earth at the Second Advent He will find many ture belevers in their natural bodies. This must be a period of time between the Rapture of the church-age saints and the Second Coming to allow for these folk to be saved. It is reasonable to believe that this period of time is the seven years of the Great Trib.!!!

This is enough proof for me!!! I hope this helped you man and truthbringer

[lydia81]

If I get time I will put some scriptures to prove the Pre-trib rapture.

That would be nice.

Thank you.

The evidence for the Pre-Trib Rapture. Following reasons I am convinced the Bible teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture.

1. Church-Age Believers are promised salvation from wrath. (1 th. 1:9-10, 5:1-9, Rom 5:9 and Re 3:10)

2. The Holy Spirit is to be removed before the tribulation (2 th 2:1-8)

3. In the book of Revelation, the Church is not seen on Earth after ch 3 UNTIL ch 19...(hmm... think about it)

BUT the true church is not the focus on the Great Tribulation recorded in Re 4-18

4. The Church-Age believers are promised mansions in Heaven (Jn. 14:1-3)

5. The translation of Church-Age Saints is said to be IMMINENT (it could happen any moment) whereas the SECOND COMING is said to be preceded by specific signs (1 th 1:9,10 Tit 2:12,13 Mt.24:42-44 Jaames 5:8,9 !Jn 2:28, Re 1:3)

6. The Church is a mystery unrevealed in the O.T. (Ep. 3:1-11)

7. The Church CANNOT be overcome, but the saints of the tribulation will be ( look at and compare Mt 16:18, Rev. 13:7)

8. There are events intervening between the translation and ressurection of the church and the second advent...according to 1 Co. 15:51 , EVERY saved person will be translated at the Rapture. Yet Mt. 25:31-46 shows that when Jesus returns to the earth at the Second Advent He will find many ture belevers in their natural bodies. This must be a period of time between the Rapture of the church-age saints and the Second Coming to allow for these folk to be saved. It is reasonable to believe that this period of time is the seven years of the Great Trib.!!!

This is enough proof for me!!! I hope this helped you man and truthbringer

I guess it would except 6 of your 8 point are wrong and the other 2 prove nothing. #1 Bevcause we will not suffer God's wrath does not mean that we will not go through the tribulation. #6 The church is a mystery in the O.T. revealed in the N.T but that has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture points 2-5 as well as 7 & 8 are simply incorrect.

Did you even happen to look at the scripture?? What bible are you looking at?? Tell me how 7 & 8 are "simply incorrect"!! Where is your scripture to prove me wrong...

[Celt]

The evidence for the Pre-Trib Rapture. Following reasons I am convinced the Bible teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture.

1. Church-Age Believers are promised salvation from wrath. (1 th. 1:9-10, 5:1-9, Rom 5:9 and Re 3:10)

But where's the pre-trib rapture in those verses? It's not written there. What is written is the idea that those in Christ will not suffer God's wrath that's to come upon the wicked. That's the wrath we have escape that occurs one time, and that's when Christ comes to reign on the earth and when He gathers His saints.

2. The Holy Spirit is to be removed before the tribulation (2 th 2:1-8)

That's not about The Holy Spirit being removed. It's about the one who will cast the devil down to this earth for the tribulation per Rev.12:7-9 and Daniel 12:1. The Holy Spirit will be very much at work during the tribulation among Christ's true servants who will be here still working. Christ told those to not premeditate what they will say when delivered up to give a Testimony for Him, but to speak what The Holy Spirit gives them to speak in that "hour". The Holy Spirit will also be at work among God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem that He sends to prophesy for 1260 days through the tribulation.

3. In the book of Revelation, the Church is not seen on Earth after ch 3 UNTIL ch 19...(hmm... think about it)

BUT the true church is not the focus on the Great Tribulation recorded in Re 4-18

Two "candlesticks" are mentioned in Rev.11 along with God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem. Like Jesus said in Rev.1, the seven candlesticks are the seven Churches. Because only 2 of the 7 "candlesticks" will remain steadfast in Christ working during the tribulation, that's means the other five Churches won't be. The others will be 'taken', stumble, and fall backwards because they listened to man instead of God in His Word.

4. The Church-Age believers are promised mansions in Heaven (Jn. 14:1-3)

That word "mansion" means an abode or residence per the Greek. The abodes for Christ's priests that rule with Him are shown in Ezekiel 40 forward, covering the Milennium reign of Christ and His elect ON EARTH. Rev.5:10 says we will reign ON THE EARTH. Those abodes will be on earth where Christ will reign from as written.

5. The translation of Church-Age Saints is said to be IMMINENT (it could happen any moment) whereas the SECOND COMING is said to be preceded by specific signs (1 th 1:9,10 Tit 2:12,13 Mt.24:42-44 Jaames 5:8,9 !Jn 2:28, Re 1:3)

The "immenent" or "any moment" doctrine, is from man, not Christ. It was part of the original "secret rapture" theory that came out of 1830's Great Britain. It's a false idea because the events written in God's Word MUST first come to pass leading up to Christ's coming. The "any moment" doctrine from man tries to say those events aren't tied to Christ's coming, and that He can come at any time.

6. The Church is a mystery unrevealed in the O.T. (Ep. 3:1-11)

That's partially true. Although God gave His Old Testament prophets to write about Salvation going to the Gentiles, it was not fully understood until The Gospel went to the Gentiles.

7. The Church CANNOT be overcome, but the saints of the tribulation will be ( look at and compare Mt 16:18, Rev. 13:7)

Christ's saints who go through the tribulation in Faith will not be 'overcome' by His enemies in the spiritual sense. Instead, they will be the only overcomers in Christ alive, for the rest of believers will busy bowing to the false messiah who comes first to fly them away.

8. There are events intervening between the translation and ressurection of the church and the second advent...according to 1 Co. 15:51 , EVERY saved person will be translated at the Rapture. Yet Mt. 25:31-46 shows that when Jesus returns to the earth at the Second Advent He will find many ture belevers in their natural bodies. This must be a period of time between the Rapture of the church-age saints and the Second Coming to allow for these folk to be saved. It is reasonable to believe that this period of time is the seven years of the Great Trib.!!!

There's only one coming of Chriist, and only one resurrection and gathering of His saints. It occurs after the tribulation like He said in Matt.24, and after the false one Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2. Just because Matt.24 shows that Christ's "very elect" go through the tribulation doesn't mean Gentile believers are raptured out simply because they aren't mentioned there. Instead it shows that if Christ's "very elect" are still on earth going through the tribulation, then all Gentile believers will also. The 1 Cor.15 and 1 Thess.4 Scripture occur at the same time. One author CAN describe a single event a different way over time when visiting the various Churches like Paul did. In 1 Thess.4, Paul covered the coming of Christ very lightly. But in 1 Cor.15 he covered how we are gathered to Christ at His coming.

[lydia81]

The evidence for the Pre-Trib Rapture. Following reasons I am convinced the Bible teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture.

1. Church-Age Believers are promised salvation from wrath. (1 th. 1:9-10, 5:1-9, Rom 5:9 and Re 3:10)

But where's the pre-trib rapture in those verses? It's not written there. What is written is the idea that those in Christ will not suffer God's wrath that's to come upon the wicked. That's the wrath we have escape that occurs one time, and that's when Christ comes to reign on the earth and when He gathers His saints.

2. The Holy Spirit is to be removed before the tribulation (2 th 2:1-8)

That's not about The Holy Spirit being removed. It's about the one who will cast the devil down to this earth for the tribulation per Rev.12:7-9 and Daniel 12:1. The Holy Spirit will be very much at work during the tribulation among Christ's true servants who will be here still working. Christ told those to not premeditate what they will say when delivered up to give a Testimony for Him, but to speak what The Holy Spirit gives them to speak in that "hour". The Holy Spirit will also be at work among God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem that He sends to prophesy for 1260 days through the tribulation.

3. In the book of Revelation, the Church is not seen on Earth after ch 3 UNTIL ch 19...(hmm... think about it)

BUT the true church is not the focus on the Great Tribulation recorded in Re 4-18

Two "candlesticks" are mentioned in Rev.11 along with God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem. Like Jesus said in Rev.1, the seven candlesticks are the seven Churches. Because only 2 of the 7 "candlesticks" will remain steadfast in Christ working during the tribulation, that's means the other five Churches won't be. The others will be 'taken', stumble, and fall backwards because they listened to man instead of God in His Word.

4. The Church-Age believers are promised mansions in Heaven (Jn. 14:1-3)

That word "mansion" means an abode or residence per the Greek. The abodes for Christ's priests that rule with Him are shown in Ezekiel 40 forward, covering the Milennium reign of Christ and His elect ON EARTH. Rev.5:10 says we will reign ON THE EARTH. Those abodes will be on earth where Christ will reign from as written.

5. The translation of Church-Age Saints is said to be IMMINENT (it could happen any moment) whereas the SECOND COMING is said to be preceded by specific signs (1 th 1:9,10 Tit 2:12,13 Mt.24:42-44 Jaames 5:8,9 !Jn 2:28, Re 1:3)

The "immenent" or "any moment" doctrine, is from man, not Christ. It was part of the original "secret rapture" theory that came out of 1830's Great Britain. It's a false idea because the events written in God's Word MUST first come to pass leading up to Christ's coming. The "any moment" doctrine from man tries to say those events aren't tied to Christ's coming, and that He can come at any time.

6. The Church is a mystery unrevealed in the O.T. (Ep. 3:1-11)

That's partially true. Although God gave His Old Testament prophets to write about Salvation going to the Gentiles, it was not fully understood until The Gospel went to the Gentiles.

7. The Church CANNOT be overcome, but the saints of the tribulation will be ( look at and compare Mt 16:18, Rev. 13:7)

Christ's saints who go through the tribulation in Faith will not be 'overcome' by His enemies in the spiritual sense. Instead, they will be the only overcomers in Christ alive, for the rest of believers will busy bowing to the false messiah who comes first to fly them away.

8. There are events intervening between the translation and ressurection of the church and the second advent...according to 1 Co. 15:51 , EVERY saved person will be translated at the Rapture. Yet Mt. 25:31-46 shows that when Jesus returns to the earth at the Second Advent He will find many ture belevers in their natural bodies. This must be a period of time between the Rapture of the church-age saints and the Second Coming to allow for these folk to be saved. It is reasonable to believe that this period of time is the seven years of the Great Trib.!!!

There's only one coming of Chriist, and only one resurrection and gathering of His saints. It occurs after the tribulation like He said in Matt.24, and after the false one Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2. Just because Matt.24 shows that Christ's "very elect" go through the tribulation doesn't mean Gentile believers are raptured out simply because they aren't mentioned there. Instead it shows that if Christ's "very elect" are still on earth going through the tribulation, then all Gentile believers will also. The 1 Cor.15 and 1 Thess.4 Scripture occur at the same time. One author CAN describe a single event a different way over time when visiting the various Churches like Paul did. In 1 Thess.4, Paul covered the coming of Christ very lightly. But in 1 Cor.15 he covered how we are gathered to Christ at His coming.

This is an excellent post Celt, good work.

Yadda Yadda Yadda....give me a break PLEASE!!!