I am Discouraged

[Larry 2]

Quoting you - I am so dicouraged .My spouse belives we make no desisions ,we are prestined or we are not. That we can not accept christ .I have tried attending church,but he believes all that we have attended are false teachers. His belielfs are so dark and discouraging. If i diagree with him he says i disagree with the bible and do not believe the word of god.Or that i do not have ears to hear.

Dear sister drayden, your husband obviously is following the preaching or thoughts of someone, and I believe those views of his to be what is known as Preterist and I quote the following simplified explanation from Wikipedia Encyclopedia."Preterism is a variant of Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days or End Times refer to events which actually happened in the first century after Christ's birth." I do not know all their doctrines but many think we are presently experiencing the tribulation period thus the warnings against false prophets, etc. Some I have talked to express that the "Abomination of Desolation" is the churches of today standing in the holy place.

I have no isea if this is all Preterist's view but the ones I have come into contact quote Revelation 18:4. "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Since they think everything has already happened they believe Revelation 18:4 applies to all churches of today.

One major obstacle to your thoughts will be Daniel 9:27 where they think the "he" referred to there refers to Christ instead of the "he"in Daniel 9:26 which is the prince that will come to destroy the city, and that "he is the antichrist. Things get turned around in their thinking real fast.

There are many of them closely associated with the thinking of the Reformed Church, and some of them also have these ideas. Now these thoughts of mine are not to be taken as scripture. I'm only expressing things I have heard in discussions with some of them, but you can search the web on these two church views and at least know more about what your husband is trying to say and his reasons for saying them.

Your's is just another example of why we are to be equally yoked. Though scripture is really talking about contrasting the believer and unbeliever, there is sufficient proof by experience that it can also apply that to the differences within believers. One other thing I have observed with some of them is that they think they as the elect of God are the restored Israel. You may also notice many hateful comments against those of today who say they are Jews.

I have no idea if this will help, but I know that God can change all things and make them work for your good. Dear Father, please help this dear saint of Your's in this division between her and her husband and give her the grace she needs to understand and to be in Your perfect will at this time. You have told us that we can come to You boldly to Your throne of grace to obtain mercy and find grace to help in our time of need and we are doing that. Assure her in Your word to give her the joy of her salvation at this time and I thank You in the precious name of Your Son Jesus for all these things. AMEN

May God bless you Jesus' name - larry2

[Floatingaxe]

Unless I am misunderstanding what was posted, this man has drifted off into heretical teaching. She is not supposed to sit by and let him do this just because she is his wife. She is not to sit under heretical teaching just to fulfil a role, she can point his error lovingly and with a submissive spirit, but if he does not listen she is NOT to follow him into error.

Anything can be considered heretical. Free will or predestination (depending on what side you are on) can be considered heretical by the other side. The issue is HOW should she handle this issue with her husband. Disagreeing with a spouse can be very stressful and discouraging if you let it be. Clearly this fine women is stressed and discouraged and we should be addressing HOW she should handle it...not giving her reasons to doubt her husband (i.e. your husband is wrong.) So what if he's wrong...I'd be willing to bet that he's been wrong on other issues too. In fact, even if he comes around on this issue, chances are he'll make other mistakes in the future.

This could be over ANY topic. What if the husband and wife disagree on how much to tithe? Can the wife usurp the husband and tithe behind his back?? NO! In so doing, the wife takes the headship authority (Ephesians 5:22-33) upon herself, and that is outside of God's order. Wives are to walk in obedience to God's command and submit as unto Him (Ephesians 5:22). The issue here shouldn't be free will vs. predestination. It should be does a wife have the authority to usurp her husbands role just because she disagree's with his leadership?

There is NO scriptural support for the idea that if a woman disagree's with her husband spiritually that she no longer has to support him as the leader, or that she override his role. Even if he were unsaved the bible tells her to continue to support him. This husband is attempting to lead his wife based on his understanding of scripture. Whether he is right or wrong...there is a proper way for a Godly woman to hold up her husband...even while disagreeing with him.

I also think the OP is kinda vague...so we are all kinda guessing.

A wife whose husband disagrees with a spiritual truth is free to obey God EVERYTIME. If he won't tithe properly, she can tithe herself. She stands before Christ alone, and cannot use her husband as an excuse to act contrary to how she believes God instructs her.

[Axxman]

A wife whose husband disagrees with a spiritual truth is free to obey God EVERYTIME. If he won't tithe properly, she can tithe herself. She stands before Christ alone, and cannot use her husband as an excuse to act contrary to how she believes God instructs her.

Scripture please. Why would God instruct the husband in one way...and the wife in another? He wouldn't. The wife doesn't get to decide spiritual truth...the husband does. If a husband is attempting to lead his wife spiritually she doesn't get to say "I don't like your leadership...I'm going to do it a different way." There is absolutely NO scriptural support for the wife usurping her husbands spiritual authority in this way.

[Axxman]

It is a good discussion though.

How far should a wife follow a husband spiritually? Ax what would you say if the husband in this case was a Roman Catholic? Should she as a Christian wife join that Church and have thier children baptized there? How about a Morman husband? Or simply a husband who believes something the women honestly in her heart believes to be heresy? Should she for the sake of her marriage and her role believe things that go against what she believes as Gospel truth?

Good questions Smalcald...

I believe the wife should follow the husband. The context of this discussion is a Christian man, and a Christian woman, who are in disagreement over a bit of doctrine. Just because a man is a Christian doesn't mean he will always get it right. However, it does mean that he bears the fruit (and the judgement) of his decisions when leading his family. Believing that God chooses people for savation and that it is God's choice, not man's choice, is not exactly an evil thing...no matter what side of the fence you are on. A christian wife should follow the spiritual leadership of her Christian husband and support him with prayer and counsel and love. It is NOT a woman's place to disobey her husband on spiritual matters.

Now...

Sometimes women find themselves in relationships with men who are not christian. I still believe that they are obligated to follow their husbands leadership UNLESS it causes them to sin against God. The bible is pretty clear that women are to remain obedient to husbands that do not obey the Word of God.

"Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;" I Peter 3:1

The bible doesn't say to submit to your husband only if he is a Christian...and only if you agree with him. The bible tells women to be obedient and to be subject to their husband's authority regardless. This is not an easy life, and it can be discouraging (as the OP makes clear)...but the most important thing this woman can do is to live a consistent, Godly life before Him and pray for him constantly. God can soften and change the hardest of hearts. Fighting with him and trying to usurp his God given authority won't make matters any easier.

[stacey c]

Axxman did state that if the husband leads the wife into sin against God, she is to follow God. What man or woman ever gets it perfect, when seeking the leading of God? But a wife who follows her husband in meekness of heart, even if she doesn't agree, God will bless her obedience. I have seen this in my own life a dozen times. The wife is to pray for her husband, for the Lord's direction. She doesn't get to pick and choose which choice of her husbands or not she'll follow. Not if she wants the blessing of God in her family.

[Floatingaxe]

A wife whose husband disagrees with a spiritual truth is free to obey God EVERYTIME. If he won't tithe properly, she can tithe herself. She stands before Christ alone, and cannot use her husband as an excuse to act contrary to how she believes God instructs her.

Scripture please. Why would God instruct the husband in one way...and the wife in another? He wouldn't. The wife doesn't get to decide spiritual truth...the husband does. If a husband is attempting to lead his wife spiritually she doesn't get to say "I don't like your leadership...I'm going to do it a different way." There is absolutely NO scriptural support for the wife usurping her husbands spiritual authority in this way.

Any Christian wife is free to discern the truth of Scripture. What are you saying here? Obviously the husband is spiritually in error. A wife who is being overlorded by a husband in error is certainly free to follow after the truth.

The word "usurp" is only used in the matter of church leadership. Not the home. If a husband abdicates his rightful place and godly leadership, well too bad for him. Jesus will guide the woman. I am not in favour of outright rebellion--a wife must choose her battles, but if her husband is following after a serious doctrinal error, and she has a conscience about it, she must not follow.

[Axxman]

The word "usurp" is only used in the matter of church leadership. Not the home. If a husband abdicates his rightful place and godly leadership, well too bad for him. Jesus will guide the woman. I am not in favour of outright rebellion--a wife must choose her battles, but if her husband is following after a serious doctrinal error, and she has a conscience about it, she must not follow.

She must not follow what? The idea that God loves her and chose her? What a horrible doctrine this husband is following. It doesn't hurt her ONE iota to follow her husbands guidance in this direction, even if she disagrees. Why can't she disagree with him...and lovingly pray, encourage, and support his decisions? What a novel concept!

Please feel free to point me in the direction of any scripture that says Jesus will guide women who disagree with their husbands. What...are we nuns now? The Word of God specifically commands women to remain subjected to men even if they don't follow the Word! I'm sorry, but you're views don't square with that it seems.

I do agree that if a husband abdicates his "rightful place" as the Godly leader, then that is his fault and he will be judged for it. However, this husband hasn't done that. This husband is attempting to lead his wife spiritually and she refuses to follow because she disagree's. Again, this is wholly out of line with scriptural teaching. If a women "has a conscience" about a doctrinal issue then the bible tells her to ask her husband. It doesn't go on to say, "and if your husbands answer isn't what you want to hear then Jesus will guide you."

[Axxman]

The wife doesn't get to decide spiritual truth...you're right. But neither does the husband. It's NOT his truth vs her truth. It's all God's truth and just because the husband is the leader of the home, doesn't mean that every directive he gets comes from God--whether that's his desire or not. According to what you're saying, if the husband says God thinks it's right and good for us to abuse our children, the wife should then go along with it. Or if he says "we're going to worship buddah now", she must simply go along with the "spiritual authority" he has.

The letter of the law kills; the spirit of it gives life. II Cor 3:6 and Rom 7:6.

Clearly, I agree. I have stated a couple of times that men are not perfect and we do make errors in our leadership at times. However, I think God was perfectly aware of men's short-comings when he decreed us as the spiritual leaders of our families. Men will bear the judgement for leading their families in error. I also clearly stated that the line is drawn at a husband who leads his wife into sin. A woman must not sin against God...and a Godly husband must not lead her into sin.

My wife has certainly had questions in the past about why we believe certain things. We regularly discuss bible topics and we attempt to be a strong spiritual union...but there is NO question that I am the spiritual leader. She appreciates my role, and she supports it. Furthermore, she respects the fact that I am willing to take the heat if I lead her wrong. If we ever went to a church or bible study and she learned something contrary to what I have taught my family...and she chose to follow another man's spiritual leadership over mine...I would consider it a violation of trust and the commitment she made to respect and honor me as a husband.

[Floatingaxe]

The wife doesn't get to decide spiritual truth...you're right. But neither does the husband. It's NOT his truth vs her truth. It's all God's truth and just because the husband is the leader of the home, doesn't mean that every directive he gets comes from God--whether that's his desire or not. According to what you're saying, if the husband says God thinks it's right and good for us to abuse our children, the wife should then go along with it. Or if he says "we're going to worship buddah now", she must simply go along with the "spiritual authority" he has.

The letter of the law kills; the spirit of it gives life. II Cor 3:6 and Rom 7:6.

Clearly, I agree. I have stated a couple of times that men are not perfect and we do make errors in our leadership at times. However, I think God was perfectly aware of men's short-comings when he decreed us as the spiritual leaders of our families. Men will bear the judgement for leading their families in error. I also clearly stated that the line is drawn at a husband who leads his wife into sin. A woman must not sin against God...and a Godly husband must not lead her into sin.

My wife has certainly had questions in the past about why we believe certain things. We regularly discuss bible topics and we attempt to be a strong spiritual union...but there is NO question that I am the spiritual leader. She appreciates my role, and she supports it. Furthermore, she respects the fact that I am willing to take the heat if I lead her wrong. If we ever went to a church or bible study and she learned something contrary to what I have taught my family...and she chose to follow another man's spiritual leadership over mine...I would consider it a violation of trust and the commitment she made to respect and honor me as a husband.

My husband and I agree on all things spiritual. We follow God and His word and we sit under the fine teaching of our shepherds...together. I hardly think my husband would be trying to teach me anything that disagrees with all the provisions given to keep us on the right path.

In fact, there have been many times I have actually taught my husband a thing or two, and believe me, he asks me what I think. There is no violation in that. We are equal partners in the sight of God. Because we are in right standing with God, we are restored to the position of Adam and Eve before the Fall--in Christ. There is no hierarchy there, but rather, we work shoulder to shoulder in service to our King. That is the true status of Christian marriage in this Church age.

We submit to each other according to scripture, and because my husband loves me sacrificially as Jesus Christ does for the Church, I love him and easily submit to his leadership in all areas. Often, he will submit to my wishes out of love, to please and to gift me. I believe that Jesus does that as well, as our loving Father.

[simpleword]

If I may,allow me to simplfy your question and statement, 1 Corinthians 14:33,For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Now God will not confuse you,so He would not tell you to do something that you could not or cannot do,

God says to you,Joshua 24:15,And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

2 Peter 1:9,But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10,Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11,For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

You are a free moral agent,you get choose Heaven or hell,you get to choose life or death,God asks you friends,

Ezekiel 33:11,Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

In the Name of Jesus Christ,live friends.

Here is a simple sinners prayer,say it unto the Lord,He will hear,He will answer,

My Lord and My God,have mercy upon my soul a sinner.I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God.

I believe that He died upon the cross and shed His innocent Blood for the forgiveness of all my sins,I believe that God

raised Jesus Christ up from the dead by the power of the Holy Ghost.I open up the door of my heart and I invite you into

my heart,Lord Jesus. Wash all my sins away in the precious Blood that you shed for me.You will not turn me away

Lord Jesus;you will save my soul,I know because your Word says so.Your Word says that you turn no one away

and that includes me.Therefore I know that you have heard me,and I know that you have answered me,

and I know that I am saved,and I thank you Lord Jesus Christ for saving my soul.

Now raise your hands toward heaven and begin praising and thanking the Lord for your Salvation,continue on and on.