When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

[BlindSeeker]

First of all the tribulation DOES NOT begin until the antichrist signs a deal with Israel IN THE FUTURE . . .

Can you show this verse where he "signs a deal with Israel IN THE FUTURE?"

.

[Bold Believer]

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Above is the text of Daniel 9:24-27. Does anyone see the word antichrist in it anywhere? The 'he' of v 27 is Moschiach.

What covenant did Jesus confirm?

Jer 31:33-But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

In the middle of the week (the 70th week) Messiah causes the sacrifices and oblation to cease. Cease what? THEIR EFFECTIVENESS! When Christ died, the sacrifices became ineffective. It doesn't matter if we sacrificed every last bull, goat and dove on the planet, they are INEFFECTIVE. It's either Christ's sacrifice OR NO SACRIFICE!

Get your heads out of Hal Lindsey's and Tim LaHaye's books, stop watching Jack Van Impe and LEARN THE SCRIPTURE!

The latter part of v 27 says for the overspreading of abominations (cause) he will make desolate (effect). Jesus says in Mt 23:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. The judgment is pronounced. Furthermore, it was pronounced on THAT generation.

It occurred in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple. Pentecost was the creation of the FINAL TEMPLE, the one made without hands.

Now, go study and prove me wrong from Scripture.

(And yes, Revelation was written BEFORE Jerusalem fell. John speaks of the temple as still standing.)

[Massorite]

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Above is the text of Daniel 9:24-27. Does anyone see the word antichrist in it anywhere? The 'he' of v 27 is Moschiach.

What covenant did Jesus confirm?

Jer 31:33-But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

In the middle of the week (the 70th week) Messiah causes the sacrifices and oblation to cease. Cease what? THEIR EFFECTIVENESS! When Christ died, the sacrifices became ineffective. It doesn't matter if we sacrificed every last bull, goat and dove on the planet, they are INEFFECTIVE. It's either Christ's sacrifice OR NO SACRIFICE!

Get your heads out of Hal Lindsey's and Tim LaHaye's books, stop watching Jack Van Impe and LEARN THE SCRIPTURE!

The latter part of v 27 says for the overspreading of abominations (cause) he will make desolate (effect). Jesus says in Mt 23:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. The judgment is pronounced. Furthermore, it was pronounced on THAT generation.

It occurred in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple. Pentecost was the creation of the FINAL TEMPLE, the one made without hands.

Now, go study and prove me wrong from Scripture.

(And yes, Revelation was written BEFORE Jerusalem fell. John speaks of the temple as still standing.)

The word antichrist doesn't need to be in those verses. Everybody already knows that it is the antichrist who will make a covenant for only seven years.

DANIEL 9:24-26 is all about Christ but verse 27 is about the antichrist because Jesus has never confirmed a covenant with anybody and never will for only one week IE seven years. One year for every day of the week and the last seven years has not taken place yet. The Covenant Jesus signed with His blood is FOR EVER not seven years. Verse 27 is a reference to ch.7:8,11,20 &21.

Why just quote Jeremiah 31:33 only? Why not all of verses 31-34 because all of these verses are talking about the same prophecy which is the arrival of Christ and the covenant He has already made with all of us. That is why these verses talk about God putting His law in our inward parts. In other words our hearts.

For your info I am not a pre-triber AND DO NOT AGREE with those authors you mentioned. It's not nice to make unfounded assumption about people.

Sorry but I have no idea where you got that stuff about Matthew 23:35 and verse 27. I see a zero connection because Matthew 23:29-38 are all talking about what has happened to all of the messengers or prophets that God sent to the Israelites BEFORE the ministry Jesus even began and has nothing to do with the future. But verse 39 speaks of when Jesus returns in the future because the Jews as a whole still have not excepted Jesus as the Messiah.

So in what verse of the book of Revelation does John speak of the temple still standing?

It is true that when Christ died the sacrifices were no longer needed but you should ask an Orthodox Jew in Jerusalem the same question and you will find out that they all want a new temple on the temple mount in Jerusalem so that can do sacrifices again and there will be a new temple on the temple mount to be built in the future. You should re-read Daniel 9:27. You have proved my point by your argument. The verse is not talking about Jesus stopping the daily sacrifice and the oblation. It is talking about when the antichrist stops the daily sacrifice and the oblation in the future after the temple is once again re-built on the temple mount in the FUTURE.

Oh by the way. In Matthew 23:36. The Generation Jesus was talking about has not past yet, we are still here. The word "generation" in verse 36 is talking about an AGE or a period time or a despinsation of time and in this case Christ is talking about the "Age of Grace" which we are still living in and this age of grace will not end until Jesus returns in the future. The age of Grace started with the ministry of Jesus.

The Preterist doctrine really is a bad doctrine and by your explanation of what certain scriptures are supposed to be saying prove the point. if I were you I would look for another teacher or better yet don't look for another teacher. Just start utilizing the one you already have. The Holy Spirit and please get your self some good credible study tools that are already established and have biblical integrity.

[stacey c]

I like reading these posts, and I don't really interfer with them because I am still learning. But as someone else asked the questions I too would like to know:

1 If the tribulation already happened, how come christ has not come back to rapture His church?

2 Why is the new heaven and new earth not here, with Christ ruling and reigning for the thousand years?

I also don't see satan and his demons bound in hell.

[Massorite]

I like reading these posts, and I don't really interfer with them because I am still learning. But as someone else asked the questions I too would like to know:

1 If the tribulation already happened, how come Christ has not come back to rapture His church?

2 Why is the new heaven and new earth not here, with Christ ruling and reigning for the thousand years?

I also don't see satan and his demons bound in hell.

Great questions Stacey and here is some more. If the tribulation, the abomination of desolation, the thousand year reign of Christ, Armageddon and satan being loosed once again to deceive the nations once more at the end of the thousand years has happened all ready. And it has been more then a thousands years since 70 AD.

Why isn't God living with us here on earth in the new Jerusalem? Why are we still shedding tears? Why do we still need the sun or how come the light of God has not taken the place of the sun?

And The Answer Is! Because the seven years nor the thousand years have happened yet.

[Bold Believer]

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Above is the text of Daniel 9:24-27. Does anyone see the word antichrist in it anywhere? The 'he' of v 27 is Moschiach.

What covenant did Jesus confirm?

Jer 31:33-But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

In the middle of the week (the 70th week) Messiah causes the sacrifices and oblation to cease. Cease what? THEIR EFFECTIVENESS! When Christ died, the sacrifices became ineffective. It doesn't matter if we sacrificed every last bull, goat and dove on the planet, they are INEFFECTIVE. It's either Christ's sacrifice OR NO SACRIFICE!

Get your heads out of Hal Lindsey's and Tim LaHaye's books, stop watching Jack Van Impe and LEARN THE SCRIPTURE!

The latter part of v 27 says for the overspreading of abominations (cause) he will make desolate (effect). Jesus says in Mt 23:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. The judgment is pronounced. Furthermore, it was pronounced on THAT generation.

It occurred in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple. Pentecost was the creation of the FINAL TEMPLE, the one made without hands.

Now, go study and prove me wrong from Scripture.

(And yes, Revelation was written BEFORE Jerusalem fell. John speaks of the temple as still standing.)

The word antichrist doesn't need to be in those verses. Everybody already knows that it is the antichrist who will make a covenant for only seven years.

DANIEL 9:24-26 is all about Christ but verse 27 is about the antichrist because Jesus has never confirmed a covenant with anybody and never will for only one week IE seven years. One year for every day of the week and the last seven years has not taken place yet. The Covenant Jesus signed with His blood is FOR EVER not seven years. Verse 27 is a reference to ch.7:8,11,20 &21.

Why just quote Jeremiah 31:33 only? Why not all of verses 31-34 because all of these verses are talking about the same prophecy which is the arrival of Christ and the covenant He has already made with all of us. That is why these verses talk about God putting His law in our inward parts. In other words our hearts.

For your info I am not a pre-triber AND DO NOT AGREE with those authors you mentioned. It's not nice to make unfounded assumption about people.

Sorry but I have no idea where you got that stuff about Matthew 23:35 and verse 27. I see a zero connection because Matthew 23:29-38 are all talking about what has happened to all of the messengers or prophets that God sent to the Israelites BEFORE the ministry Jesus even began and has nothing to do with the future. But verse 39 speaks of when Jesus returns in the future because the Jews as a whole still have not excepted Jesus as the Messiah.

So in what verse of the book of Revelation does John speak of the temple still standing?

It is true that when Christ died the sacrifices were no longer needed but you should ask an Orthodox Jew in Jerusalem the same question and you will find out that they all want a new temple on the temple mount in Jerusalem so that can do sacrifices again and there will be a new temple on the temple mount to be built in the future. You should re-read Daniel 9:27. You have proved my point by your argument. The verse is not talking about Jesus stopping the daily sacrifice and the oblation. It is talking about when the antichrist stops the daily sacrifice and the oblation in the future after the temple is once again re-built on the temple mount in the FUTURE.

Oh by the way. In Matthew 23:36. The Generation Jesus was talking about has not past yet, we are still here. The word "generation" in verse 36 is talking about an AGE or a period time or a despinsation of time and in this case Christ is talking about the "Age of Grace" which we are still living in and this age of grace will not end until Jesus returns in the future. The age of Grace started with the ministry of Jesus.

The Preterist doctrine really is a bad doctrine and by your explanation of what certain scriptures are supposed to be saying prove the point. if I were you I would look for another teacher or better yet don't look for another teacher. Just start utilizing the one you already have. The Holy Spirit and please get your self some good credible study tools that are already established and have biblical integrity.

A. I'm not a preterist. Preterists believe that the Second Coming WAS the events of 70 AD. I am a historical post-millennialist.

B. My 'you' was not specific, it was collective. A royal you to believers in general. It was not meant to be personal for anyone.

C. Revelation 11 speaks of the Temple as still standing.

D. The generation of which Jesus was speaking is LONG past friend. The word genea means generation. If Jesus had meant age, the word would be aon.

E. "Everybody already knows that it is the antichrist who will make a covenant for only seven years." Oh really? And how do they know that. The text does not say so. Beware of adding anything to Scripture, it carries a hefty penalty. When you add things in, you destroy the plain meaning. If the text does not specifically state something, then don't add it. There is no mention of any antichrist in Daniel 9:24-27. Your argument is untenable.

F. Of course Jesus' words spoke of the prophets murdered by the corrupted Jewish system. Jesus came first to the House of Israel. He specifically warned their leaders that they were about to incur FUTURE judgment specifically for doing so in Mt 23.

G. Just because people desire something does not mean that God will give it to them. The desire of the Orthodox Jews for a temple on the Mount is irrelevant. Only Messiah can build the final temple. He did that. See I Peter. WE are the Temple; a temple made without hands. The Orthodox would have the Temple they desire if they would simply believe on Yeshua, but they adamantly refuse. The re-institution of sacrifices of any merit is an insult to the Blood of Jesus and HE will have none of it.

H. You keep trying to insert this 'antichrist' into Daniel 9:27 where it isn't. The HE is Messiah; the covenant is not for seven years, the text never states that the covenant is for seven years. It is Messiah who causes the sacrifice to cease because He is cut off (killed) but not for himself. Friend, you have antichrist on the brain when you SHOULD have Jesus Christ on the brain.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Bold Believer

[Bold Believer]

I like reading these posts, and I don't really interfer with them because I am still learning. But as someone else asked the questions I too would like to know:

1 If the tribulation already happened, how come christ has not come back to rapture His church?

2 Why is the new heaven and new earth not here, with Christ ruling and reigning for the thousand years?

I also don't see satan and his demons bound in hell.

1. Because the tribulation was the time of JACOB's trouble. Jacob, as in the other name for Israel (the one that God used for him when he did wrong). This is one of the big problems. People try to link events together which have no bearing on each other. The tribulation was specifically for the apostate portion of Israel. It is not connected to the Return of Jesus at Judgment Day (see Revelation 20).

2. The New Heaven and New Earth do not come until the Last Day. If you read Rev 20, you will see the order.

3. Christ rules from the Heavenly Jerusalem atop Mount Zion. The text regarding His rule never states that He will rule on the earth. It says that HE rules the nations with a rod of iron. It also never says anything about it being a peaceful rule. The peace that occurs in the thousand years is the peace that comes with believing in Christ as LORD, not a literal peace with no strife at all. The very idea that Jesus has to reign with a rod of iron (his Scripture) belies the thought of any literal peace. The nations get out of line and when they do, the rod of iron is there for their correction. Be careful of adding in anything to the plain text. This is how things get confused in the first place.

4. The binding of Satan is very specific both as to the place of the binding and what that binding entails. The place (where) is the bottomless pit. The terms of the binding are: that he might deceive the nations (unbelievers) no more. He can only deceive those dead in sin (Christ rejectors). The bottomless pit in Scripture refers to the grave/death. Only a Christ rejector is dead. The nations (Gentiles) had been getting deceived by idols and false gods before Christ came to establish His Kingdom. When Christ came though, He became a great light to the Gentiles according to the prophecy. Jesus Himself even said that the only way to take things from the strong man's house (implying the Gentiles) was to...first bind the strongman. Satan had to be bound so that the non-Jewish world could be given the Gospel. That is what the millennium was all about, so that the world would come to the knowledge of Christ. The world now knows. (This doesn't mean that every last person will believe, only that the knowledge is freely available; in other words, that they know about Christ and what He has done, regardless of whether or not they obey by believing.)

5. The thousand years is not exactly one thousand years. The word chilioi means a long period of indefinite length. If exactly 1000 years was meant, the term chilios would have been used, which is a number. So the thousand years could be much longer (though I personally don't think so).

6. Jesus is not here because the Scripture tells us that He must be held in heaven until the restoration of all things.

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Christ will not return until the Father decides its time to restore everything back to the way it was intended. That word restitution is apokatastasis which means the restoration of the true theocracy and the state of things before the Fall. (The New Heaven and New Earth)

[BlindSeeker]

you never answered my question -

First of all the tribulation DOES NOT begin until the antichrist signs a deal with Israel IN THE FUTURE . . .

Can you show this verse where he "signs a deal with Israel IN THE FUTURE?"

.

[BlindSeeker]

you never answered my question -

First of all the tribulation DOES NOT begin until the antichrist signs a deal with Israel IN THE FUTURE . . .

Can you show this verse where he "signs a deal with Israel IN THE FUTURE?"

.

Posted again so as not to be missed . . . .

[nebula]

Sorry I'm jumping in here late in the discussion without having had time to read everything. But I would like to add one observation and ask one question.

Observation:

In Scripture, the only people who had accurately interpreted prophecy were other prophets (i.e. Daniel, Simeon, Anna).

And the teachers, though they understood principles (i.e. "The Messiah is to be born in Bethlehem.") got the manifestations all wrong.

I don't believe the Lord has changed the rules.

So I'm not so sure any of us have got it all right, either.

(Yes, I include myself in that.)

Question:

Why has not anyone (at least I haven't seen it in what I skimmed through) considered the opening of the 1st seal (the rider on a white horse one) to be the start of the Tribulation?