When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

[Celt]

By the way -

If the AC is able to seduce the world with peace -

How can the AC be the rider on the white horse with a bow and a crown if this rider is followed by War, Famine, and Plague/death?

That's a pretty short-lived promise of peace, don't you think?

That's a good question, but don't you think our Lord Jesus already covered that point in His Word? He did say the tribulation would be 'shortened' for His elect's sake (Matt.24). He even gave the time of how long that army coming would operate on earth, in Revelation.

The idea of the rider on the white horse of the first seal coming to conquer does not have to mean with war, for it's the red horse that represent war. The black horse represents commerce. And the pale horse represents power over a fourth part of the earth using four tools.

Our Lord said that when we hear of wars and rumours of wars, then the end is not yet, and not to be concerned. But what's the opposite of that? Peace. The very end will happen with a short time of peace by the false messiah. Rev.13 even asks, who can make war with the beast? With the whole earth under the false one's control, that's how all wars will stop.

And that's the time when the apostle Paul said they shall be saying, "Peace and safety", and when a sudden destruction is coming, upon 'them', pointing to Christ's coming.

[BlindSeeker]

Let me see if I can give a crude analogy.

You are living on an island where the people because of their beliefs don't have any weather system monitors . . .

Nice post Nebula.

I especially liked the following -

Imagine the Israelites regarding the plagues as "consequences of evil" rather than the hand of the Lord in judgment against Pharoah meant to bring them deliverance.

Sometimes people need to be reminded that God is the one working all things together for the good of those who love Him.

[Massorite]

It seems to me that there are to points of view here.

One is from the perspective of looking for JESUS and an end to pain and suffering as someone who is not a citizen of this world looking to go home.

The other is looking for the events that will take place in this world and in this life, focussed on the coming of the man of sin.

Neither one is wrong. For we look for the signs that we can see to point to the one we seek. It does seem that there is more focus on the coming of the anti-christs than on the CHRIST, but there is more focus on the events of the end times in Rev than on the author of those times.

Still, it's all about JESUS.

That is what I say krossfocused. Why not both? Both are relevant enough for God to put them in His word so they both should be relevant to us as well.

[nebula]

So, per your logic, no one can really understand and know what God's Word says unless they are a prophet?

It was a prophet (Daniel) who understood Jeremiah's prophetic word.

It was 2 prophets (Simeon and Anna) who were directed to the Messiah when his parents brought Him to the Temple as a baby.

It was a prophet (John the Baptist) who pointed out "the Lamb of God" to the people.

Nobody understood that Jesus had to die and rise again until after the event - even after He had told them it was going to happen. Even at the Last Supper, they still didn't understand his point-blank words.

That's what 'you' say. I guess your logic destroys all the credentials of those who have seminary degrees too.

I'm talking about prophecy - not general theology. There truly is a big difference.

Teachers need to be more concerned with what message the Lord intends the reader to learn from the passage, not try to intepret prophecy. Prophetic interpretation is only revealed through the Holy Spirit. He created the code, only He can break it.

But we all have different gifts and different functions in the body of Christ. Teachers should never take on the role of the prophets. It just doesn't work.

My sister-in-law is gifted in the prophetic, so I've been able to see how it is the Lord works with prophets and speaks to them and uses them to minister. (No, I don't think she has any End-time revelation; I'm speaking in principles here.) I've compared that to how the Lord interacts with me and uses me. I had always wanted to be a prophet. But in seeing someone who has a prophetic calling, I was given a picture to compare myself with and know that I'm not one of them. So when I speak about the prophets, I'm speaking of from the standpoint of observation of how the different callings function and are meant to complement each other - but we can't take the place of each other.

My understanding is not of a private interpretation. It is very close to what the early Church fathers understood, and also what many who study their Bible understand. It's just not a Pre-Trib, nor Preterist, nor Historicist theology, which the early Church fathers did not have, for they believed in a post-tribulational coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and were on watch for antichrist and a coming great tribulation, and prepared to go through it, knowing that Christ's coming would be afterwards to end it and gather them, just like the Scripture states, and in more than one Bible account.

Just curious - did the interpretations of the early Church fathers include the restoration of Israel as a nation?

Did they accurately include this in their time-tables and events-to-look-for?

And furthermore, before anyone can speak by influence of The Holy Spirit, they must first agree with what is already written. The Holy Spirit will never, ever, go against what is already written in God's Word. Yet, some of the ideas you have even go directly against what our Lord Jesus said, when He commanded us to "watch".

Please read what I said about the hurricane. I'm not arguing against "watching."

I'm having grievences against the focus of the watch.

[nebula]

By the way -

If the AC is able to seduce the world with peace -

How can the AC be the rider on the white horse with a bow and a crown if this rider is followed by War, Famine, and Plague/death?

That's a pretty short-lived promise of peace, don't you think?

That's a good question, but don't you think our Lord Jesus already covered that point in His Word? He did say the tribulation would be 'shortened' for His elect's sake (Matt.24). He even gave the time of how long that army coming would operate on earth, in Revelation.

The idea of the rider on the white horse of the first seal coming to conquer does not have to mean with war, for it's the red horse that represent war. The black horse represents commerce. And the pale horse represents power over a fourth part of the earth using four tools.

I'm not seeing what you are seeing.

How much time do you believe takes place between the opening of the first seal and the opening of the second?

With the first seal comes the Conquorer, with the second comes War, with the third comes Famine, and with the fourth comes Plague/death. These four are always depicted as riding together as "The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse."

I don't see how the first horseman being the AC fits into this mix.

Our Lord said that when we hear of wars and rumours of wars, then the end is not yet, and not to be concerned. But what's the opposite of that? Peace. The very end will happen with a short time of peace by the false messiah. Rev.13 even asks, who can make war with the beast? With the whole earth under the false one's control, that's how all wars will stop.

But the rider on the white horse comes before the rider on the red horse.

[nebula]

I especially liked the following -

Imagine the Israelites regarding the plagues as "consequences of evil" rather than the hand of the Lord in judgment against Pharoah meant to bring them deliverance.

Sometimes people need to be reminded that God is the one working all things together for the good of those who love Him.

Thanks!

I'm glad you understand the message I'm trying to convey.

[Celt]

It was a prophet (Daniel) who understood Jeremiah's prophetic word.

It was 2 prophets (Simeon and Anna) who were directed to the Messiah when his parents brought Him to the Temple as a baby.

It was a prophet (John the Baptist) who pointed out "the Lamb of God" to the people.

Nobody understood that Jesus had to die and rise again until after the event - even after He had told them it was going to happen. Even at the Last Supper, they still didn't understand his point-blank words.

So, like I asked, no one can understand Bible prophecy unless they are a prophet? Sure are a lot of folks here that imply they understand our Lord's Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13, yet many of them place that as past history, when it includes Christ's second coming. How then, would you contrast their understanding of that prophecy of our Lord's Olivet Discourse with how I've covered it in previous posts? In your 'opinion', are they also required to be a prophet in order to read and understand that prophecy?

There was a reason why Christ's Apostles didn't understand about His crucifixion. As per the Scripture I showed before, it was prophecy that they be scattered when it was time for The Shepherd to be smitten. And it's obvious they were scattered for their own protection for what they were called to do later. Peter even denied Christ three times as a part of that scattering of the sheep when our Lord Jesus was crucified.

It is nowhere written in God's Word that only a prophet must be consulted to read and understand God's prophecies in His Word. That's an idea of the doctrines of men to think such is required. It also goes against our Lord's promise of giving believers on Him the gift of The Holy Spirit. In Rev.1, does our Lord say, 'Blessed is he that readeth, AND THEN CONSULTS A PROPHET FOR UNDERSTANDING'? Of course not. He said, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:..." (Rev.1:3).

Teachers need to be more concerned with what message the Lord intends the reader to learn from the passage, not try to intepret prophecy. Prophetic interpretation is only revealed through the Holy Spirit. He created the code, only He can break it.

But we all have different gifts and different functions in the body of Christ. Teachers should never take on the role of the prophets. It just doesn't work.

Where did our Lord, or His Apostles say that a believer can only be given one adminstration or gift of The Holy Spirit? Don't you think Christ's Apostles, especially Paul, were given more than one? Yes, no doubt. That hasn't changed for today.

Futhermore, a called Bible teacher cannot teach The Bible without understanding the written Word, which of course means understanding prophetic events. Now what you're talking about is one called to be an evangelist, one who is given only to preach The Gospel to those who haven't heard.

As far as prophets today, there are no more Biblical prophets like those of the Old Testament. Anyone claiming that Jesus directly appears and speaks to them in the way like the Old Testament prophets, or His New Testament Apostles, should be wary. The New Testament Apostles were Apostles because they had direct contact, in Person contact, with our Lord Jesus Christ, like His appearing to them in Person. That office is no more, for He already chose those Apostles to write the New Testament for us later believers. Also, any new revelation given to Christ's servants today will NOT CHANGE what is already written in The Bible, whether it be a prophecy of the past, present, or future.

We do not have to be a 'prophet' to understand God's prophecies in His Word. God can give that understanding to whomever He has called, and there are many believers today that have been called for service that are not prophets.

My sister-in-law is gifted in the prophetic, so I've been able to see how it is the Lord works with prophets and speaks to them and uses them to minister. (No, I don't think she has any End-time revelation; I'm speaking in principles here.) I've compared that to how the Lord interacts with me and uses me. I had always wanted to be a prophet. But in seeing someone who has a prophetic calling, I was given a picture to compare myself with and know that I'm not one of them. So when I speak about the prophets, I'm speaking of from the standpoint of observation of how the different callings function and are meant to complement each other - but we can't take the place of each other.

EVEN IF, God made it known to me beyond a doubt, that He called me as a prophet, I WOULD NEVER CLAIM IT. But that still has nothing to do with the ability to understand prophecies written in God's Word. IF you stay in ALL of God's Word, asking Him for understanding, and stay in Him, He will show you. That's my firm belief, because I've seen it at work, in my own life and in the lives of many others. He said The Holy Spirit would teach us all things (John 14:26). The only way we can err in that is to NOT listen by The Holy Spirit when studying The Bible, or listen to the doctrines of men, which is of the 'leaven' our Lord Jesus warned of. And it's easy to find out if something is 'leaven' by simply verifying it in God's Holy Writ. The leaven teaching of men will ALWAYS miss some of God's Word, or even flattly disregard an important relevant Scripture that disagrees with it. Even as our Lord Jesus said to those Jews who believed on Him, that if they would stay in His Word they indeed would become His disciples, then they would know The Truth, and The Truth would make them free (John 8:31-32). The key word is "disciples", which is from the Greek word where we get our word 'discipline'. We have to be disciplined in His Word.

Just curious - did the interpretations of the early Church fathers include the restoration of Israel as a nation?

Did they accurately include this in their time-tables and events-to-look-for?

Not per the words most often used in referring to the nation state of Israel we know in the world today. They understood about a coming Kingdom of God though, with Christ reigning with His servants. We can look at the prophecy of Ezekiel 48 and understand the true restoration of Israel has clearly not happenned yet today, with each of the twelve tribes established back to the Holy Land, and the land divided according to each tribe. It's easy to know that none of the Ezekiel 40 through 48 Scripture has been fufilled yet today. Ezekiel 47 speaks of that great River of Revelation 22, and the tree of life reference.

Please read what I said about the hurricane. I'm not arguing against "watching."

I'm having grievences against the focus of the watch.

If you've truly read most of the posts just on this thread, then you've already gotten a lot of insight on some end time events that are to occur upon us. But it'll be up to you to go into The Word for yourself and ask The LORD about it. I cannot stress enough, that our Lord gave us the warnings about the last days, so we'd be prepared to fulfill His calling. He gave us His battle plans for the end of this world when He told us to watch. He wouldn't do that unless He loves us, and wants us to not fall away from Him because of the "strong delusion" that's coming. For one of His to deny that warning He gave is like turning Him off, not listening to Him. The Holy Spirit cannot help a believer through these times that willingly cuts off that bridge.

[Celt]

By the way -

If the AC is able to seduce the world with peace -

How can the AC be the rider on the white horse with a bow and a crown if this rider is followed by War, Famine, and Plague/death?

That's a pretty short-lived promise of peace, don't you think?

I'm not seeing what you are seeing.

The seven seals are especially to impart information. It's the trumpets that occur in order. Not all of the seals are in perfect order.

In our Lord's Olivet Discourse He mentioned about 'a pseudo Christ' ('pseudochristos' but translated as "false Christs"). He showed that pseudo Christ would be doing great signs and wonders to deceive with. And He warned His servants to not believe on that false one when others say, "Lo, here is Christ, or there" (Matt.24:23). And He said that false one would come doing works so deceptively strong that it would deceive even His "very elect", if it were possible for them to be deceived. No one has come yet like that today to do that level of deceptive works on the earth. There's been many that have claimed to be Christ, but didn't fulfill that level of deceptive works.

So then, looking at the seven seals, which seal best fits that description of that 'pseudo Christ' coming to do miracles and claim he is Christ? It's the first seal, because it's a rider on a white horse, wearing a crown, coming to conquer. The word "crown" is 'stephanos' in the Greek, and means a chaplet or wreath that was rewarded to victors at public games. But in Rev.19, our Lord Jesus comes on a white horse having many crowns, the Greek word 'diadema', which is unmistakely about real crowns. The conquerer on the white horse on the first seal is given his crown, which 'stephanos' points to a fake crown, or victory wreath only. That rider on the white horse of the first seal points to fakeness. And that would go with the 'pseudo Christ' our Lord Jesus warned of in Matth.24:24 and Mark 13:22.

But clearly, that pseudo Christ does not come first, but towards the end. Thus the seven seals are not in perfect order, except the last three, the 5th, 6th, and 7th. This is understood by knowing what the 'events' of each are actually about, not just following numbers in an order. The seven trumpets are in order though, because that represents the sounding of the trumpets on holy days, and for the order in battle per the Old Testament. To make sure we get the last three trumpets in order, our Lord Jesus mentioned three 'woes' that go with the last three trumpets, the 5th, 6th, and 7th. Because of the woes we cannot get those last three trumpets out of order.

How much time do you believe takes place between the opening of the first seal and the opening of the second?

Like I said, the seven seals impart information about coming events. They are not in perfect order. So we cannot assign a specific timing between them, but only understand and reconize the events.

With the first seal comes the Conquorer, with the second comes War, with the third comes Famine, and with the fourth comes Plague/death. These four are always depicted as riding together as "The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse."

Are we talking about God's Word, or man's popular ideas about Revelation? One will never come to an understanding if man's popular ideas are heeded.

Compare the events in Mark 13 our Lord Jesus foretold us with those seven seals. The first warning Christ gave was about deception (Mark 13:5-6). That fits the first seal, the rider on the white horse. But so do the events He gave in Mark 13:14-23 about a pseudo Christ who is to work the main deception, which links to the 6th seal also.

The next warning is in Mark 13:7 about WARS, and rumours of wars. That's about the 2nd seal, which is red, taking peace off the earth.

And the next is Mark 13:8, about FAMINES and troubles, and the "beginning of sorrows". That's the 3rd seal, which a black horse with the rider carrying the balances of commerce.

And the next is Mark 13:8-9 is also about the 3rd and 4th seals, a pale horse who's rider is named "Death" (another title for Satan). And he is given power over a fourth part of the earth, to 'kill' using the 1) sword, 2) with hunger, 3) with death, 4) and beasts. We can see the previous 2nd and 3rd seals still working within this 4th seal. This working is related to the locust army our Lord mentioned in Joel 1 & 2. The working of a real locust in four developing stages is compared to how the locust army works upon the earth to take control over God's people, and their wealth. Per history, there's been four main categories of the enemy's working like a developing locust, through the economic, the educational, the political, and the religious powers.

And in Mark 13:10-13 is about the 5th seal, which is about a Testimony by God's servants, and being persecuted for that Testimony of Jesus Christ, some even to the death.

Then in Mark 13:14-23, Christ begins speaking of the "abomination of desolation", a time of great "affliction" and the pseudo Christ working. That's the 6th seal of Rev.6, and the coming of the rider of the 1st seal with a fake crown. Our Lord's first warning in Mark 13 was about deception, but the main deception doesn't come until this 6th seal event, which are events related to the 6th trumpet. And that pseudo Christ points back to that rider on the first seal, coming to conquer, through spiritual deception.

From Rev.6:14-17 are 7th seal events, which are given in Mark 13:24 forward about Christ's coming after the 6th seal events.

[nebula]

Celt -

When 20 Bible teachers give 20 different interpretations of the End Times, and all 20 of them claim to be given this understanding from the Holy Spirit, why should I believe one over another?

[Massorite]

Celt -

When 20 Bible teachers give 20 different interpretations of the End Times, and all 20 of them claim to be given this understanding from the Holy Spirit, why should I believe one over another?

Very confusing isn't it. Who is the author of confusion? satan is. The bible is a book of philosophy on how to live your life according to the way that God wants you to live it. He has given us look into the past and the future and He is telling us of our present time as we read His Word. It is my belief that the Holy Spirit is to among other functions is to help us to better understand the Word of God and what He is trying to tell us.

I can sit here and claim that the Holy Spirit has told me that the Lords Prayer is obsolete and no longer a viable prayer to pray. And there is actually a denomination that is actually teaching that because it believes that because it say "thy kingdom come" in the prayer the prayer is obsolete because the kingdom has already come. And they are correct to a point. God has sent a kingdom to this earth and we are a part of the kingdom of God "here on earth".

But as for the Lords Prayer being obsolete what does the bible say about that. Does the bible say that because that kingdom here on earth is here that we should no long pray the prayer? And what kind of kingdom is being talked about in the Lords prayer? We know that it is not the 1000 year kingdom that is here on earth nor is it the heavenly kingdom because both of these kingdoms are still yet to be in our future. I believe that the kingdom that is here on earth is a spiritual one. We are in this world but not a part of this world. We are spiritually separated from the world because we has chosen to receive Christ and His way of living in this carnal world of ours.

So again. What does the bible say about the Lord's prayer? It tells us to pray it when we want to pray and I continue to do so. because the bible doesn't tell me any different.

I said all of that to go here with you nebula. No matter what you here any man say or read what any man has printed about any kind of doctrinal teaching or beliefs. Never take them at their word. Always look it up for your self and see for your self what the Word of God says about it. Two of the most wide spread doctrinal teachings is the pre-tribulation resurrection and the OSAS. These doctrines are taught in bible collages, seminaries, bible institutes and so on. They are taught/preached by some of the biggest names in televangelism and millions upon millions around the world hear these false teachings preached. Yet they can not be scripturally re-enforced with any scripture unless the word of God is twisted to fit the beliefs.

When you are go to church and your pastor preaches a message never take his word for it unless you know for sure that what he preached line up with the word of God. Why? Because his is human and not perfect and he makes mistakes.

All you have to do to keep your self from being confused is to stay fast with what the word of God says. If it is not written in the bible then it is wrong and doesn't exist. And if at the time when you are looking for understanding and you still can,t understand what the bible is saying. STOP! Stop trying to understand, put it up on a shelf and what for the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you.

God intended for us to understand His Word His way not 20 different ways. That is what I have learned. I always go back to the bible and reading the bible from front to back over and over goes a long way for helping you to know non biblical teachings just as soon as they are spoken.

A lot of people say "everybody interpreters the bible or certain scriptures different" or "everybody is at a different level" or "you have your interpretation and I have mine" and I am telling you that those explanations are just an excuse to believe what you want the bible to say instead of what the bible actually says. I call it self inflected blindness. I do believe that there are different levels of maturity in a Christian walk but not one that gives an excuse to interpreter the bible your way rather then God,s way.

IF IT IS NOT WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE IT IS NOT. These are the words I live by.