All Israel Shall be Saved

[Larry 2]

What are we being told here?

Romans 9:6 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

Romans 11:26 "all Israel shall be saved" (v23 if they abide not still in unbelief)

Revelation 2:9 "I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not."

Is there a remnant left as with Romans 11:4-5 when God told Elias. "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men." 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

[Guest yod]

It seems that you are attempting to imply a meaning that is not within the pages of the Word?

Taking a verse "here" and joining to another verse "there" to subtley change the meaning of all the verses mentioned is only going to cause confusion. Anyone can do that, btw, and the Serpent in the Garden of Eden was the first to try this strategy. The promises of God to Israel are not hard to understand if you will simply read the context of at least 3 to 5 verses before and after any passage.

It also becomes quite clear that God still considers Israel the apple of His eye. We, the disciples of Jesus, are joined to the remnant of Israel and they are still part of what the Lord has promised to greater Israel. God promises to save the rest of Israel in the day when all the nations come against them.

I wouldn't want to be found working against God when that day comes....

so now I'll deal with our comments more specifically:

What are we being told here?

something totally different that what you seem to be implying

Romans 9:6 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

This only means that not every jew in the world is currently saved. Doesn't everyone know that?

Romans 11:26 "all Israel shall be saved" (v23 if they abide not still in unbelief)

It is almost comical how you re-write Paul's words to suit an anti-jewish agenda. I suggest you look at the verse preceding v23 where it says;

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off

but to answer your question: Verse 23 only says that a jewish person can be saved if they continue not in unbelief. Doesn't everyone know that also?

Skipping down to Verse 26, this speaks of a day when all of Israel shall be saved. Buy a dictionary if you're having trouble understanding grammar. What is the meaning of the word "all"? How about "saved"?

That is your answer.

Revelation 2:9 "I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not."

Here he is speaking of Replacement Theology. Those who say God is finished with the jews and that the "church" has replaced them. The Lord is angry with people who have attempted to steal the Promises made to Israel by their faithful God.

Pretentious and phony jews are the ones in the gathering place of satan. They are identified as not the genuine article...they are not really jews. Grammatical context is clear since it also mentions the Pergammon altar. Jews have never been associated with the Pergammon altar (which is standing in Berlin today). It comes from the arab/persian world but was brought to Lutheran Germany by Kaiser Wilhelm at the beginning of the 20th century. I saw it a month ago.

Is there a remnant left as with Romans 11:4-5 when God told Elias. "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men." 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remant of Israel is exploding in growth before our eyes! Let everyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear know that God will complete what He has promised. In Israel today, messianic jewish congregations are growing at a very steady pace. It is happening so consistantly that it has become a national debate there.

I sincerely believe we will see all of Israel saved within a decade. He is coming...and soon.

In most places of the Tenach where it mentions the Messiah, it speaks of a day when He destroys ALL the enemies of Israel and interestingly they are currently muslim nations attacking from the east and the north.

On that day, His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives and his robes will be covered with the blood of Israel's enemies.

Bank on it.

[nebula]

Is there a remnant left as with Romans 11:4-5 when God told Elias. "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men." 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The Scripture speaks of a partial blindness over the Jews - thus there is room for the remnant.

However, I agree with Yod - the veil is being removed from their eyes. I am among those who believe the re-establishment of Israel as a nation is a fulfillment of End Times prophecies, and we can see the world stage being set for the fulfillment of even more prophecies.

Keep you eyes on Jerusalem.

[Larry 2]

It seems that you are attempting to imply a meaning that is not within the pages of the Word?

Taking a verse "here" and joining to another verse "there" to subtley change the meaning of all the verses mentioned is only going to cause confusion. Anyone can do that, btw, and the Serpent in the Garden of Eden was the first to try this strategy. The promises of God to Israel are not hard to understand if you will simply read the context of at least 3 to 5 verses before and after any passage.

It also becomes quite clear that God still considers Israel the apple of His eye. We, the disciples of Jesus, are joined to the remnant of Israel and they are still part of what the Lord has promised to greater Israel. God promises to save the rest of Israel in the day when all the nations come against them.

I wouldn't want to be found working against God when that day comes....

so now I'll deal with our comments more specifically:

What are we being told here?

something totally different that what you seem to be implying

Romans 9:6 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

This only means that not every jew in the world is currently saved. Doesn't everyone know that?

Romans 11:26 "all Israel shall be saved" (v23 if they abide not still in unbelief)

It is almost comical how you re-write Paul's words to suit an anti-jewish agenda. I suggest you look at the verse preceding v23 where it says;

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off

but to answer your question: Verse 23 only says that a jewish person can be saved if they continue not in unbelief. Doesn't everyone know that also?

Skipping down to Verse 26, this speaks of a day when all of Israel shall be saved. Buy a dictionary if you're having trouble understanding grammar. What is the meaning of the word "all"? How about "saved"?

That is your answer.

Revelation 2:9 "I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not."

Here he is speaking of Replacement Theology. Those who say God is finished with the jews and that the "church" has replaced them. The Lord is angry with people who have attempted to steal the Promises made to Israel by their faithful God.

Pretentious and phony jews are the ones in the gathering place of satan. They are identified as not the genuine article...they are not really jews. Grammatical context is clear since it also mentions the Pergammon altar. Jews have never been associated with the Pergammon altar (which is standing in Berlin today). It comes from the arab/persian world but was brought to Lutheran Germany by Kaiser Wilhelm at the beginning of the 20th century. I saw it a month ago.

Is there a remnant left as with Romans 11:4-5 when God told Elias. "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men." 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remant of Israel is exploding in growth before our eyes! Let everyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear know that God will complete what He has promised. In Israel today, messianic jewish congregations are growing at a very steady pace. It is happening so consistantly that it has become a national debate there.

I sincerely believe we will see all of Israel saved within a decade. He is coming...and soon.

In most places of the Tenach where it mentions the Messiah, it speaks of a day when He destroys ALL the enemies of Israel and interestingly they are currently muslim nations attacking from the east and the north.

On that day, His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives and his robes will be covered with the blood of Israel's enemies.

Bank on it.

I must apoligize to Shiloh on the following address - It was brought to my attention that it is Yod that brought these accusations against me.

First of all Shiloh, I in no way am attempting to imply a meaning that is not within the pages of the Word? If I do not interpret these words rightly I will be glad to go over them with you. Let's take the first verse. Straighten me out on this and we can go to the next. If you think my purpose is to harm you personally or any group of people you truly have read my intent wrong and before going off the deep end with accusations I would at least appreciate a trial before being shot. I just went back and noticed this very inflammatory statement by you which really surprises me. "It is almost comical how you re-write Paul's words to suit an anti-jewish agenda." If that is your attitude I would ask you shut the thread now.

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Maybe I'm confused in these verses, but to me it is saying even though they are Paul's own countrymen through the flesh (Does this not mean Jewish?)

Then Paul goes on to say that not all of them are not the children of God just because they are born of Abraham. I have always understood that the children of promise would be those that were in Christ, the Seed.

[EricH]

It seems that you are attempting to imply a meaning that is not within the pages of the Word?

Taking a verse "here" and joining to another verse "there" to subtley change the meaning of all the verses mentioned is only going to cause confusion. Anyone can do that, btw, and the Serpent in the Garden of Eden was the first to try this strategy. The promises of God to Israel are not hard to understand if you will simply read the context of at least 3 to 5 verses before and after any passage.

It also becomes quite clear that God still considers Israel the apple of His eye. We, the disciples of Jesus, are joined to the remnant of Israel and they are still part of what the Lord has promised to greater Israel. God promises to save the rest of Israel in the day when all the nations come against them.

I wouldn't want to be found working against God when that day comes....

so now I'll deal with our comments more specifically:

What are we being told here?

something totally different that what you seem to be implying

Romans 9:6 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

This only means that not every jew in the world is currently saved. Doesn't everyone know that?

Romans 11:26 "all Israel shall be saved" (v23 if they abide not still in unbelief)

It is almost comical how you re-write Paul's words to suit an anti-jewish agenda. I suggest you look at the verse preceding v23 where it says;

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off

but to answer your question: Verse 23 only says that a jewish person can be saved if they continue not in unbelief. Doesn't everyone know that also?

Skipping down to Verse 26, this speaks of a day when all of Israel shall be saved. Buy a dictionary if you're having trouble understanding grammar. What is the meaning of the word "all"? How about "saved"?

That is your answer.

Revelation 2:9 "I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not."

Here he is speaking of Replacement Theology. Those who say God is finished with the jews and that the "church" has replaced them. The Lord is angry with people who have attempted to steal the Promises made to Israel by their faithful God.

Pretentious and phony jews are the ones in the gathering place of satan. They are identified as not the genuine article...they are not really jews. Grammatical context is clear since it also mentions the Pergammon altar. Jews have never been associated with the Pergammon altar (which is standing in Berlin today). It comes from the arab/persian world but was brought to Lutheran Germany by Kaiser Wilhelm at the beginning of the 20th century. I saw it a month ago.

Is there a remnant left as with Romans 11:4-5 when God told Elias. "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men." 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remant of Israel is exploding in growth before our eyes! Let everyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear know that God will complete what He has promised. In Israel today, messianic jewish congregations are growing at a very steady pace. It is happening so consistantly that it has become a national debate there.

I sincerely believe we will see all of Israel saved within a decade. He is coming...and soon.

In most places of the Tenach where it mentions the Messiah, it speaks of a day when He destroys ALL the enemies of Israel and interestingly they are currently muslim nations attacking from the east and the north.

On that day, His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives and his robes will be covered with the blood of Israel's enemies.

Bank on it.

First of all Shiloh, I in no way am attempting to imply a meaning that is not within the pages of the Word? If I do not interpret these words rightly I will be glad to go over them with you. Let's take the first verse. Straighten me out on this and we can go to the next. If you think my purpose is to harm you personally or any group of people you truly have read my intent wrong and before going off the deep end with accusations I would at least appreciate a trial before being shot. I just went back and noticed this very inflammatory statement by you which really surprises me. "It is almost comical how you re-write Paul's words to suit an anti-jewish agenda." If that is your attitude I would ask you shut the thread now.

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Maybe I'm confused in these verses, but to me it is saying even though they are Paul's own countrymen through the flesh (Does this not mean Jewish?)

Then Paul goes on to say that not all of them are not the children of God just because they are born of Abraham. I have always understood that the children of promise would be those that were in Christ, the Seed.

This person you are quoting is not Shiloh. It is Yod

[Larry 2]

name='EricH' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:32 AM' post='1259000']

This person you are quoting is not Shiloh. It is Yod

I see that I made that mistake EricH and have edited my reply to apologoze to Shiloh - Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

[EricH]

Lets keep this on the topic, not personalities. Assume the best of each other

[Botz]

What are we being told here?

Romans 9:6 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

Romans 11:26 "all Israel shall be saved" (v23 if they abide not still in unbelief)

Revelation 2:9 "I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not."

Is there a remnant left as with Romans 11:4-5 when God told Elias. "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men." 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Hi Larry...I think if you put all the verses you have quoted in context what you find is that Israel is referred too in several ways, which some people over the years have not recognised, or have tried to twist into what is commonly called 'replacement theology' of whom here in the UK Stephen Sizer is probably the most outspoken and articulate supporter.

Firstly there is the physical Israel, which now celebrates the 60th year of that momentous, and miraculous rebirth, and for which G-d very much still has plans for and has not in anyway given up on.

Secondly there is what has been termed 'Spiritual Israel' which is a term that denotes all Believers, both Jew and Gentile of whom Jesus/Yeshua is their Messiah/Saviour.

The 'remnant' of the physical Israel, consists of all the Jews who believe on Yeshua as their L-rd and Saviour, and you might be surprised how many Orthodox Jews secretly believe on His name, including very highly regarded Rebbes.

It should be the desire of every Jewish and Gentile Believer to see the ranks of this remnant swell continuously before our very eyes, and for the 'Church' to support the Jewish people and the Jewish nation whenever possible. Not just because we think we will be 'blessed', but in reality we owe them such a debt, and have treated them so appallingly in the past, and in some pockets of the Church still do. From their ranks has come our Jewish Saviour, and our Jewish teachers who have faithfully instructed us in the ways of the Messiah.

Personally I believe it encumbent upon all Believers to emulate the example of Paul, and to have great sorrow and continual grief in our heart, just as he did because he so longed for his fellow country men to be saved. He above anyone else, knew their zeal for Torah, but knew that it was off the mark, seeking to establish their own righteousness, and unwilling to see the fulfillment of their beloved Torah in Messiah.

If you understand the heart of Paul for his kinsmen, you touch the heart of G-d for His people.

[Larry 2]

What are we being told here?

Romans 9:6 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

Romans 11:26 "all Israel shall be saved" (v23 if they abide not still in unbelief)

Revelation 2:9 "I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not."

Is there a remnant left as with Romans 11:4-5 when God told Elias. "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men." 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Hi Larry...I think if you put all the verses you have quoted in context what you find is that Israel is referred too in several ways, which some people over the years have not recognised, or have tried to twist into what is commonly called 'replacement theology' of whom here in the UK Stephen Sizer is probably the most outspoken and articulate supporter.

Firstly there is the physical Israel, which now celebrates the 60th year of that momentous, and miraculous rebirth, and for which G-d very much still has plans for and has not in anyway given up on.

Secondly there is what has been termed 'Spiritual Israel' which is a term that denotes all Believers, both Jew and Gentile of whom Jesus/Yeshua is their Messiah/Saviour.

The 'remnant' of the physical Israel, consists of all the Jews who believe on Yeshua as their L-rd and Saviour, and you might be surprised how many Orthodox Jews secretly believe on His name, including very highly regarded Rebbes.

It should be the desire of every Jewish and Gentile Believer to see the ranks of this remnant swell continuously before our very eyes, and for the 'Church' to support the Jewish people and the Jewish nation whenever possible. Not just because we think we will be 'blessed', but in reality we owe them such a debt, and have treated them so appallingly in the past, and in some pockets of the Church still do. From their ranks has come our Jewish Saviour, and our Jewish teachers who have faithfully instructed us in the ways of the Messiah.

Personally I believe it encumbent upon all Believers to emulate the example of Paul, and to have great sorrow and continual grief in our heart, just as he did because he so longed for his fellow country men to be saved. He above anyone else, knew their zeal for Torah, but knew that it was off the mark, seeking to establish their own righteousness, and unwilling to see the fulfillment of their beloved Torah in Messiah.

If you understand the heart of Paul for his kinsmen, you touch the heart of G-d for His people.

Quoting Botz - if you put all the verses you have quoted in context what you find is that Israel is referred too in several ways.

Response - Agreed

Quoting Botz - Firstly there is the physical Israel, which now celebrates the 60th year of that momentous, and miraculous rebirth.

Response - I do not believe the physical Israel was ever dead except spiritually without Christ.

Quoting Botz - Secondly there is what has been termed 'Spiritual Israel' which is a term that denotes all Believers, both Jew and Gentile of whom Jesus/Yeshua is their Messiah/Saviour.

Response - Agreed

Quoting Botz - The 'remnant' of the physical Israel, consists of all the Jews who believe on Yeshua as their L-rd and Saviour, and you might be surprised how many Orthodox Jews secretly believe on His name, including very highly regarded Rebbes.

Response - Agreed. I've heard that when a Jew is baptized in the Christian faith, many are disowned by their own families, thus the need of secrecy.

Quoting Botz - It should be the desire of every Jewish and Gentile Believer to see the ranks of this remnant swell continuously before our very eyes.

Response - Amen, and not only the Jew.

Dear Brother botz, I agree with all you say and do not see where we differ in what I have asked. I do not believe a Gentile becomes a Jew, nor do I believe Gentiles take the promises away from the Jew. Do I believe that everyone that calls themselves a Jew is a Jew? No, or you'll have to show me where they are. When I say all Israel is going to be saved, to me that only refers to the remnant that are in Christ, and I do not believe Gentiles have any part in that promise, nor should they want to be a part of that. It is as God said, He will graft them back in. Even Paul said he was one born out of due time. 1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. He was born ahead of the nation Israel to be born in a day.

Thank you for your response and correct me if I'm wrong -

[nebula]

I understand the "25 ... blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved," means that at some point the tables will turn -

When the "fullness of the Gentiles" has come, where the blindness has been on Israel, who had rejected Jesus, this blindness will then fall on the Gentiles who have likewise rejected Jesus, and the grace of salvation will be poured back on Israel.