Seven Churches

[Doowopjock]

Of the the seven churches of Revelation 2&3--only two of them were not rebuked by the Lord Jesus (Smyrna and Philadelphia). So what about the other five..??

Apparently, they didn't keep their first Love in prominence (Ephesus), inclined unto the doctrines of heresies such as Balaam and/or the Nicolaitans (Pergamos), allowed the spirit of Jezebel and spiritual fornication to flourish (Thyatira), just "died out" (Sardis), and became just "lukewarm"--probably from the effects of having to adhere to "political correctness" more than the Truth of God's Word (Laodicea--and that last remark is just my own suspiscion). The reason I say "apparently" in the above sentence is because when you look at that same area today, it's anything but predominantly Christian--modern-day Turkey is practically Moslem all-over.

My own personal belief is that the sanctuary of God is His entire universe rather than a temple built with hands, as per what it says in His Word. But I have to wonder if anything can be learned for us today from the failures of those brethren then. Might it be possible that any gathering-place for Christian fellowship--even a website like this one--is subject to the same shortcomings..?? Is the Holy Spirit grieved away because of any modern-day manifestations of the same things that turned Asia Minor over to the non-believers who reside there today..?? I wonder if ANY place where the Spirit departs would turn into another "Turkey", and if this is what is meant by the term "Ichabod" ("the Glory is departed"--I Sam. 4:21). I also wonder about the mystery of what's hidden (Prov. 25:2) in the story of the demise of those five churches the Lord rebuked, and what is in the two chapters that might be worth the time to look into that He was displeased about.

If Ephesus lost their first love, how did they lose Him..?? How would we do the same (wanting to know what to avoid here)..?? In the same way, what are the doctrines of Balaam and the Nicolaitans that brought down Pergamos, or the spirit of Jezebel and the fornications which did the same in Thyatira..?? That is to say, what "aliases" might we find them using today..?? Did Sardis get totally bored with what had become for them some "mere routine", or did something else cause them to just die out like that..?? Are there other ways of becoming "lukewarm" than my own suggestion of getting soaked in "political correctness", and did Laodicea find a better way..??

Things I wonder about, anyway. Since God's Book is preserved by Him throughout ALL ages (even our own), I'm not at all disposed to think these things are no longer present in the world today. I suspect they go by other names nowadays, same as the Pharisees and Saducees do (my conviction anyway).

One more thing interesting to me is that there are seven of them. Only two were not found wanting by the Lord. Paul wrote to seven different churches that we know of (Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colosse, and Thessalonica), and to only two of them did he write a second epistle (that we are given to know about from God), Corinth and Thessalonica. I wonder how, if at all, they relate.

Do any of you know of any other examples of a place where the glory has departed..?? Do you know why it happened..?? Are there things we can learn from this to keep the glory from departing in our own lives as well..??

Edited November 7, 2008 by Doowopjock

[Guest]

[traveller]

Do any of you know of any other examples of a place where the glory has departed..?? Do you know why it happened..?? Are there things we can learn from this to keep the glory from departing in our own lives as well..??

Yes - when the Lord departed the temple as judgement on Judah.

Eze 10:4 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, [and stood] over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD'S glory.

Eze 10:18 Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims.

Eze 10:19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also [were] beside them, and [every one] stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above.

Eze 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above.

Eze 11:23 And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which [is] on the east side of the city.

Eze 11:24 Afterwards the spirit took me up, and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me.

Eze 11:25 Then I spake unto them of the captivity all the things that the LORD had shewed me.

This happened because the people turned to other gods, despite warning after warning to return to the Lord.

2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

[Doowopjock]

(back after SO-O-O long in exile)

I've often wondered why it is that even God's chosen people would turn to other "gods", with an eye to the fact that if it could happen to them it could certainly happen to me. I've got suspicions that it may be something inherent in human-nature that I see a lot of in our present day and age--what I call "discomfort in having a 'god' that can't be totally understood". It seems that so often I run across folx who have just "given up" on ever reading the Bible or seeking after God because they don't seem to be "getting anywhere" by doing so (in their own minds). It's really strange to me that the idea of having a God Who is far beyond our capacity to fully "figure-out" would be a source of consternation rather than of comfort. I think if I had all the answers I needed about God, He wouldn't be much of a "god" at all. I can't help but wonder if this is what was happening with many of the Old Testament people back then as well.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Doowopjock

[Guest man]

(back after SO-O-O long in exile)

I've often wondered why it is that even God's chosen people would turn to other "gods", with an eye to the fact that if it could happen to them it could certainly happen to me. I've got suspicions that it may be something inherent in human-nature that I see a lot of in our present day and age--what I call "discomfort in having a 'god' that can't be totally understood". It seems that so often I run across folx who have just "given up" on ever reading the Bible or seeking after God because they don't seem to be "getting anywhere" by doing so (in their own minds). It's really strange to me that the idea of having a God Who is far beyond our capacity to fully "figure-out" would be a source of consternation rather than of comfort. I think if I had all the answers I needed about God, He wouldn't be much of a "god" at all. I can't help but wonder if this is what was happening with many of the Old Testament people back then as well.

All down through the ages, the concept of faith is something that people find hard to understand. To believe in something or someone without being able to look upon the object of their faith.

It's a weakness that people have. A mindset that says, "If I can see it, I can believe in it more and therefore I can worship it to the utmost of my ability". When people do this, they have taken their faith and replaced it with a little god. They may believe they are staying true to their faith, but what has happened is, they have taken their focus from what is real and placed it upon something that isn't.

[Doowopjock]

(back after SO-O-O long in exile)

I've often wondered why it is that even God's chosen people would turn to other "gods", with an eye to the fact that if it could happen to them it could certainly happen to me. I've got suspicions that it may be something inherent in human-nature that I see a lot of in our present day and age--what I call "discomfort in having a 'god' that can't be totally understood". It seems that so often I run across folx who have just "given up" on ever reading the Bible or seeking after God because they don't seem to be "getting anywhere" by doing so (in their own minds). It's really strange to me that the idea of having a God Who is far beyond our capacity to fully "figure-out" would be a source of consternation rather than of comfort. I think if I had all the answers I needed about God, He wouldn't be much of a "god" at all. I can't help but wonder if this is what was happening with many of the Old Testament people back then as well.

All down through the ages, the concept of faith is something that people find hard to understand. To believe in something or someone without being able to look upon the object of their faith.

It's a weakness that people have. A mindset that says, "If I can see it, I can believe in it more and therefore I can worship it to the utmost of my ability". When people do this, they have taken their faith and replaced it with a little god. They may believe they are staying true to their faith, but what has happened is, they have taken their focus from what is real and placed it upon something that isn't.

Isn't this a lot like "creating a 'god' in our own image" rather than the exact opposite (which IS the way it is--"us" being created in "God's " image). I don't know all that much about the ancient practice of idolatry, but this is what it sounds like from the little bit I DO know (from what I've read). To be as honest as I know how to be--this makes me feel somewhat "out-of-place" being a human-being. I don't WANT to have a "god" that is no more than something I created myself. Where is there any comfort, joy, or peace in that..?? I must have missed something there (LOL..!!).

[traveller]

My opinion - for what it's worth.

I think people are too wrapped up in themselves and care too much for the things of the flesh. Instant gratification is a tough obstacle to overcome.

In the OT, when the tribes entered the Promised Land, they instantly incorporated the rituals and beliefs of the pagan tribes into their own worship of the Lord. Mixing a little here, a little there. Why? Self gratification. Instant pleasure. Perhaps even a feeling of having control over their destiny. People liked the sexual rituals, they loved knowing their futures, they needed to feel in control. At least, in my opinion. I think they flat out lost their fear of the Lord - and I'm talking about that reverend, awesome fear that comes from loving a holy, righteous, All Mighty God.

In the first chapter of Malachi the Lord tells how the children have polluted His altar with defective and blemished sacrifices. How they have allowed their love for Him to turn to love of self. He says

Mal 1:10 "Oh that there were one among you who would shut the gates, that you might not uselessly kindle {fire on} My altar! I am not pleased with you," says the LORD of hosts, "nor will I accept an offering from you.

Mal 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name {will be} great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering {that is} pure; for My name {will be} great among the nations," says the LORD of hosts.

Mal 1:12 "But you are profaning it, in that you say, 'The table of the Lord is defiled, and as for its fruit, its food is to be despised.'

Mal 1:13 "You also say, 'My, how tiresome it is!' And you disdainfully sniff at it," says the LORD of hosts, "and you bring what was taken by robbery and {what is} lame or sick; so you bring the offering! Should I receive that from your hand?" says the LORD.

Mal 1:14 "But cursed be the swindler who has a male in his flock and vows it, but sacrifices a blemished animal to the Lord, for I am a great King," says the LORD of hosts, "and My name is feared among the nations."

They (and we) turn up our noses at the spiritual blessings and the unseen future inheritance for those of physical, right here, right now blessings that will only fatten our flesh and grow our egos.

We want only what will satify us according to our own resaonings, and snub our noses at the true treasures of joy and peace, love and life.

[Guest man]

Isn't this a lot like "creating a 'god' in our own image" rather than the exact opposite (which IS the way it is--"us" being created in "God's " image). I don't know all that much about the ancient practice of idolatry, but this is what it sounds like from the little bit I DO know (from what I've read). To be as honest as I know how to be--this makes me feel somewhat "out-of-place" being a human-being. I don't WANT to have a "god" that is no more than something I created myself. Where is there any comfort, joy, or peace in that..?? I must have missed something there (LOL..!!).

The ancient practice of idolatry and how it's practiced today is basically the same. God is replaced by an imitation. The rituals have changed but the basic concept is still there.

One doesn't have to bow down to an image to be guilty of idolatry. Sacrifices don't have to be made, incense and candles don't have to be burned. The only thing required, is for that image to be acknowledged as God.

[Fraught]

there is a force at work in the world that just never stops bombarding us with empty promises of everlasting happiness if we will only keep killing ourselves trying to get money and beauty and fame. no one has time to stop and see that the rich, the beautiful and the famous still aren't fulfilled without God.

[Guest man]

there is a force at work in the world that just never stops bombarding us with empty promises of everlasting happiness if we will only keep killing ourselves trying to get money and beauty and fame. no one has time to stop and see that the rich, the beautiful and the famous still aren't fulfilled without God.

While those no doubt can become an "idol" in someones life, they don't fit the definition of what a "idol" truly is.

A true idol will give you the promise of eternal security in the presence of God. It will actually take the place of God in a believers life. Their love, devotion, praise and worship will be to that image, all the while believing that what they are doing is correct. They will follow the scriptures and walk in obedience to the best of their abilities, but their focus will be on the god they have made for themselves.

There is such a thing in the world today. It is recognized by all who see it, those who believe and those who don't, as being God. No one questions it. Even those who don't believe in God will tell us that that image is God.

The scriptures give us a hint of what that god looks like. It is vague and only mentioned once, and if one isn't paying attention, it is easy to overlook.