144,000

[nebula]

I read in another thread that the 144,000 were Christians. Why would anyone come to that conclusion?

The scripture teaches they are 12,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. There is no indication, that I recall, that would label them Christians.

The 144,000 could be believers in Messiah Yeshua. Some people would say that makes them "Christian," but many Jewish believer cringe at the idea of being called that (it's a long story that's been discussed elsewhere; but it can be re-explained if need-be).

I find no evidence, though, for the consideration that the 144,000 can be Gentile believers.

And there's no reason to tie this in with the rapture debate. It doesn't say that they were the only believers here on earth

And we don't know if the number is physical or symbolic or both.

[EricH]

Moved from Doctrinal Questions to Eschatology

[kross]

Moved from Doctrinal Questions to Eschatology

Someday I will learn how to select the topic location myself.

'course, someday I am going to learn how to shorten somones post when I respond to it.

[kross]

I read in another thread that the 144,000 were Christians. Why would anyone come to that conclusion?

The scripture teaches they are 12,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. There is no indication, that I recall, that would label them Christians.

The 144,000 could be believers in Messiah Yeshua. Some people would say that makes them "Christian," but many Jewish believer cringe at the idea of being called that (it's a long story that's been discussed elsewhere; but it can be re-explained if need-be).

I find no evidence, though, for the consideration that the 144,000 can be Gentile believers.

And there's no reason to tie this in with the rapture debate. It doesn't say that they were the only believers here on earth

And we don't know if the number is physical or symbolic or both.

I believe they are Jewish believers in Jesus therefore Christians, the reason I believe they are believers in Jesus even though the text doesn't specifically tell us this, is because they are sealed by God, and the only way to be sealed is by the Holy Spirit through belief in Jesus Christ, the only way to the Father is through the Son. So if theses 144,000 have been reconciled to God it has to be through accepting Jesus as Messiah, there is no other way.

Now whether Jews want to be called Christians or not, I have no problem with the term Messianic Jew, they are still members of the Universal Church.

The reason the rapture debate comes in because some would say they are outside of the Church because the Church would have been already rapture, which is false.

#1 There is no pretrib rapture.

#2 Even if there were that would not exclude then from being the Church during the Trib.

As far as blink's question of why the 12 tribes are different in Revelation than in the O.T. I would like to know if anyone could answer that as well.

In the old testament, GOD kept a remnant from "Bowing the knee". If HE did it then, HE could do it again. When I read this passage, all I see is GOD keeping a remnant pure for service to the Massiah. All the Jewish nation will believe when JESUS is revealed as the conquering king.

But, they could be believers as we think of believers.

[Guest sonofGodtoo]

it says they are sealed by living God. He is not going to seal unbelievers.

[mizzdy]

Rev. 14:4-5 states:

"These are the ones who are not defiled with woman, for they are virgins. These are the one who follow the Lamb where He goes. These were redeemed from amoung men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God."

They are from the tribes but it seems they do follow after Christ so does this leave out any Jewish person that has come to Christ? Or are they chosen for the attributes listed above and nothing to do with just being a Jew that comes to faith and knowledge of the Messiah?

[godrulz]

John writes in a circular style and revisits themes. Paul is more linear in his writing.

[Massorite]

I read in another thread that the 144,000 were Christians. Why would anyone come to that conclusion?

The scripture teaches they are 12,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. There is no indication, that I recall, that would label them Christians.

Help me obi-wan Kanobi.

Yes but the bible says that they are the first friuts unto God and unto the Lamb. Revelation 14:4 "These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and the Lamb. Jesus is our kinsman redeemer and no one can be redeemed from among men unless it is by excepting Christ. These are Messianic/ Christian Jerws.

[Massorite]

I read in another thread that the 144,000 were Christians. Why would anyone come to that conclusion?

The scripture teaches they are 12,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. There is no indication, that I recall, that would label them Christians.

Help me obi-wan Kanobi.

kross -

I am not obi-wan, but ...

I too would like to know who these 144,000 are,

but whether physical or spiritual descendants of Abraham,

*why* are the twelve tribes in Rev different from the original twelve tribes ?

And does this help us determine if they are physical or spiritual descendants ... ?

P.S. -

How come every time I sign my name, it is replaced with a smiley face ... ?

Yes one tribe listed in the book of Revelation has been replaced by another tribe. But they are all still Jews.

[mizzdy]

Can anyone tell me why Ephraim isn't listed but Manasseh is? I thought that both received a birthrite but he is not listed.