Did Jesus die for everyone?

[OneLight]

It appears that you are saying that people can be saved apart from hearing the Gospel. Is this true.

LT

If you need a direct answer, yes. The Gospel did not come until after Christ died. To say no would say that every person that lived before Christ are not saved, including every writer of the OT.

[larryt]

It appears that you are saying that people can be saved apart from hearing the Gospel. Is this true.

LT

If you need a direct answer, yes. The Gospel did not come until after Christ died. To say no would say that every person that lived before Christ are not saved, including every writer of the OT.

Hi OL,

I am not into biting heads off. If you read my posts I think I try to answer directly. I find it hard to understand the position of others if they do not give direct answers. Thank you for your response.

I guess the question for you is what is the Gospel? But aside from that I would ask that even now, since Christ came, can anybody be saved apart from the Gospel?

LT

[Ovedya]

I disagree with the notion that the gospel did not "come" until Christ died.

John proclaimed, "Repent for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand." This was John's proclamation of the arrival of Christ, who is Himself, the essence of the Gospel. Christ, as the fulfillment of prophesy, as the seed of David and as the Son of God, is Himself, in reality, the Gospel.

[OneLight]

I disagree with the notion that the gospel did not "come" until Christ died.

John proclaimed, "Repent for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand." This was John's proclamation of the arrival of Christ, who is Himself, the essence of the Gospel. Christ, as the fulfillment of prophesy, as the seed of David and as the Son of God, is Himself, in reality, the Gospel.

Very true. What I meant was that the written word, that we call the Gospel, or Good News, did not come until after Jesus died. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[OneLight]

It appears that you are saying that people can be saved apart from hearing the Gospel. Is this true.

LT

If you need a direct answer, yes. The Gospel did not come until after Christ died. To say no would say that every person that lived before Christ are not saved, including every writer of the OT.

Hi OL,

I am not into biting heads off. If you read my posts I think I try to answer directly. I find it hard to understand the position of others if they do not give direct answers. Thank you for your response.

I guess the question for you is what is the Gospel? But aside from that I would ask that even now, since Christ came, can anybody be saved apart from the Gospel?

LT

The Gospel is the Good News of Christ's life and teachings, especially as contained in the first four books of the New Testament; Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. It is also the messages concerning salvation and the kingdom of God as announced to the world by Christ.

Today, it is hard to find anyone who has not heard of Jesus, but those who have not will be judged by God, according to what is in their heart. Can I say for sure that there will be some that will be saved, no, but I do hope that there will be. I can imagine that somewhere there is a person who never heard of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit, but lives more like a Christian then some who have heard the word and are saved, yet, as I said in my other post, this is only my personal belief and is not backed up by scripture.

It is hard for anyone today to even give this any thought because for thousands of years, the "civilized world" has had His word, the Bible. I began thinking of those who never heard when I read the following from Romans 1:19-20

"because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,"

God speaks to everyone. His creation shouts praise to Him and He can be seen in it. The Holy Spirit is in this world to convict the world of sin. To me, that means everyone. God is greater then we will know while we are still in the flesh. Still, for those of us who have heard, we have a choice to make and will be saved according to if we believe in Jesus and accept His salvation or not.

What are your thoughts of those who never heard?

[stacey c]

I really like your post Onelight!

Who's to know the mind of God. All creation shouts His glory.

I have always believed that God in all His grace and mercy has declared His salvation in one way or another to those who never had the opportunity in their life time.

In our age of technology and travel it's hard for us to comprehend that there are those who never heard about Christ before our life time, but what about those hundreds of years between the time of Jesus and the Apostles and the discoveries of all the "new worlds"? What happened to those natives who were not discovered unti generatins later?

[larryt]

It appears that you are saying that people can be saved apart from hearing the Gospel. Is this true.

LT

If you need a direct answer, yes. The Gospel did not come until after Christ died. To say no would say that every person that lived before Christ are not saved, including every writer of the OT.

Hi OL,

I am not into biting heads off. If you read my posts I think I try to answer directly. I find it hard to understand the position of others if they do not give direct answers. Thank you for your response.

I guess the question for you is what is the Gospel? But aside from that I would ask that even now, since Christ came, can anybody be saved apart from the Gospel?

LT

The Gospel is the Good News of Christ's life and teachings, especially as contained in the first four books of the New Testament; Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. It is also the messages concerning salvation and the kingdom of God as announced to the world by Christ.

Hi OL,

I think Ovedya said it very well:

John proclaimed, "Repent for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand." This was John's proclamation of the arrival of Christ, who is Himself, the essence of the Gospel. Christ, as the fulfillment of prophesy, as the seed of David and as the Son of God, is Himself, in reality, the Gospel.

To preach the Gospel it to preach Jesus Christ. It is not necessarily to preach about Him. We must know Him and not just about Him. I know this is a distinction that some might think as splitting hairs. I think it is important enough to make.

Today, it is hard to find anyone who has not heard of Jesus, but those who have not will be judged by God, according to what is in their heart.

What is in their heart? The bible tells us.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ps 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.

Ps 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Can I say for sure that there will be some that will be saved, no, but I do hope that there will be.

Hope in the biblical sense is a confident expectation of good, looking to a sure thing. Not wishful thinking.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

If God wants them to be saved He will make sure they hear.

I can imagine that somewhere there is a person who never heard of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit, but lives more like a Christian then some who have heard the word and are saved, yet, as I said in my other post, this is only my personal belief and is not backed up by scripture.

Actually there are many and even in the US that have not heard the Gospel. The proclamation of the Gospel is a rare thing in the churches in the US IMO.

If our personal belief contradicts the Word we need to abandon our personal belief. What you are saying here is that someone can be saved by works.

but lives more like a Christian then some who have heard the word and are saved

The bible is very clear that none are saved by their works.

It is hard for anyone today to even give this any thought because for thousands of years, the "civilized world" has had His word, the Bible. I began thinking of those who never heard when I read the following from Romans 1:19-20

"because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,"

It is the fool that says there is no God. There is no excuse for not believing that God exists as some say.

God speaks to everyone. His creation shouts praise to Him and He can be seen in it. The Holy Spirit is in this world to convict the world of sin. To me, that means everyone. God is greater then we will know while we are still in the flesh. Still, for those of us who have heard, we have a choice to make and will be saved according to if we believe in Jesus and accept His salvation or not.

In one sense I agree. The heavens declare the glory of God. In another, I disagree.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Never is it mentioned that any are saved that do not believe.

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

It says many, not all, are called. And out of the called a few are chosen.

What are your thoughts of those who never heard?

Those that never heard were left in their unbelief. I do not believe they are saved. As I mentioned above that if God intends to save someone they will be saved. God will make sure that the Gospel gets to them and He will open their ears that they hear and will give them a new heart to believe.

LT

[OneLight]

What are your thoughts of those who never heard?

Those that never heard were left in their unbelief. I do not believe they are saved. As I mentioned above that if God intends to save someone they will be saved. God will make sure that the Gospel gets to them and He will open their ears that they hear and will give them a new heart to believe.

LT

Allow me to ask it a different way. Do you believe that God can make himself know to someone who never heard any of the writings that we have read? Take the example of someone in the vast jungles of South America that have yet to see anyone outside of their tribe, have no idea about the world at all. Do you believe that God would touch the heart of one of these without sending anyone to them, but made Himself known through His creation? I am not talking about works at all, but what is in the heart of men. In other words, someone who is seeking Him that this person believes is the creator.

Yes, this is thinking outside the box ...

[larryt]

What are your thoughts of those who never heard?

Those that never heard were left in their unbelief. I do not believe they are saved. As I mentioned above that if God intends to save someone they will be saved. God will make sure that the Gospel gets to them and He will open their ears that they hear and will give them a new heart to believe.

LT

Allow me to ask it a different way. Do you believe that God can make himself know to someone who never heard any of the writings that we have read? Take the example of someone in the vast jungles of South America that have yet to see anyone outside of their tribe, have no idea about the world at all.

The operative word in your question is "can" God make Himself known. The answer is He can do anything He decides to do. The more important question is "Does" God make Himself known with regard to salvation apart from the Gospel? To that I answer NO.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God tells us exactly how He goes about saving someone. Rom.10:13-15.

Do you believe that God would touch the heart of one of these without sending anyone to them, but made Himself known through His creation?

I do not believe this at all. There are many accounts of people that said they were waiting for a messenger to bring them the truth and in fact someone came with the gospel message.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Knowing about God from the creation only condemns them because none seek after God.

I am not talking about works at all, but what is in the heart of men. In other words, someone who is seeking Him that this person believes is the creator.

Do you think that the heart of man is in any way good?

Yes, this is thinking outside the box ...

Maybe thinking inside the box is better.

Blessings,

LT

[OneLight]

What are your thoughts of those who never heard?

Those that never heard were left in their unbelief. I do not believe they are saved. As I mentioned above that if God intends to save someone they will be saved. God will make sure that the Gospel gets to them and He will open their ears that they hear and will give them a new heart to believe.

LT

Allow me to ask it a different way. Do you believe that God can make himself know to someone who never heard any of the writings that we have read? Take the example of someone in the vast jungles of South America that have yet to see anyone outside of their tribe, have no idea about the world at all.

The operative word in your question is "can" God make Himself known. The answer is He can do anything He decides to do. The more important question is "Does" God make Himself known with regard to salvation apart from the Gospel? To that I answer NO.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God tells us exactly how He goes about saving someone. Rom.10:13-15.

Do you believe that God would touch the heart of one of these without sending anyone to them, but made Himself known through His creation?

I do not believe this at all. There are many accounts of people that said they were waiting for a messenger to bring them the truth and in fact someone came with the gospel message.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Knowing about God from the creation only condemns them because none seek after God.

I am not talking about works at all, but what is in the heart of men. In other words, someone who is seeking Him that this person believes is the creator.

Do you think that the heart of man is in any way good?

Yes, this is thinking outside the box ...

Maybe thinking inside the box is better.

Blessings,

LT

Thanks for your honesty, Larry. As you already know, I disagree, for we do not know everything God does nor do we know everyone He will give His grace to. Maybe we can continue this discussion in the next life. Until then, consider those who do not fall into the category of the "men who suppress the truth by their wickedness".

Romans 1:18

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness

God Bless,

OneLight