Bold Believer

LOL. Hardly Art old buddy. The Charismatics are too late. Christ ruled through his people from heaven from the Ascension until man began to think of himself as god. When did that occur? Well, my personal opnion says it occurred once we split the atom. Man began to believe the Bomb as 'harnessing the power of god.' Christianity ruled the nations and history proves it. Great Christian nations arose and brought great things into the world. There were still bad things. There was still evil. Societally though, it was quickly dealt with by Biblically based laws. And if and when one nation dropped the ball, God raised up another more righteous one in its place. America was the last of the great Christian nations. But now Satan-Gog is loose. Christianity is being replaced with humanism and the man of sin thinks he's god. He's got all kinds of techo-miracles to back him up too. Why gee, he can change his sex, fly to to the moon and back, cure various diseases...create life. He blissfully believes The Lie that he can be as god. He hates religion. Why, don't you know, Christianity and all of those other stupid religions have brought nothing but strife to the world. The man of sins ' "national anthem" is Imagine by good old John Lennon. No heaven, ho hell, no religion, just a glorious brotherhood of man. This is the trash spewing from the mind of Satan to Magog's Army world wide. Read Humanist Manifesto II sometime and you will see Satan's bold and bizarre battle plan. Countries are adapting more and more of the principles of HM II every day. I totally expect that the world will attempt to abolish religion in the latter end of my lifetime. The post-mils have forgotten the little season. I'm a postmillennialist only in the sense that I believe Christ is coming after the millennium, not that I believe the whole world man for man will be converted. Even Jesus and the apostles didn't believe that.

Gordie is Canadian, he can't be President. But then again, if Obama can...

Scozzafava is a rhino... This got my fur up last night when I watched Newt tell Greta the Reps needed to include the abortionists and the homosexual advocates as leaders in the party.. I do not want to be a dem light.. If the party moves one step farther toward the dems I am outta there..I will find someone who will fight for moral issues in our country or I will not vote at all .. There will be no point for they will be all the same .. Calling yourself a conservative does not make you one... Aer you telling me that the SAME MAN who is telling us to rediscover God in our heritage thinks that aborticide killers and Sodomite advocates need to be included as LEADERS? If so, then Newt needs his bloody head examined. We need them like we need a sharp stick in the eye. But then, if you're already blind, what does it matter? Vote Constitution Party.

One thing we can do is humble ourselves and pray for mercy. Beyond that? The whole world is in the midst of the War of Gog and Magog. We see its effects sometimes as Believers, but fail to recognize it for what it is. This hostility is what John calls 'going forth to battle against the Holy City'. WE ARE THE HOLY CITY. The Magogites hate us. Remember, Christianity was the pre-dominant religion for close to 2000 years. We set the tune and the world followed in obedience to God or they were punished. Christian nations were the former order of the day. Biblically based laws were the order of the day. But now, Satan is loosed and the effects are starting to become more and more obvious, BUT NOT THE SOURCE. Satan is behind this deceiving of the nations, he is the piper and the Magogite unbelievers are following his tune. They ARE an army, a spiritual army and they are surrounding us, a bit at a time ideologically. Humanism is now the pre-dominant religion, political correctness is the order of the day and organized religion is debunked (especially Christianity, but all of them are despised). When will we see this as Believers? As for 'what are we going to do?' We're going to wait upon the salvation of our God who will destroy this enemy in flaming fire from heaven. Let it play out. God wins.

As it is written: "Any kingdom at war with itself is doomed. A city or home divided against itself is doomed. And if Satan is casting out Satan, he is fighting against himself. His own kingdom will not survive..." Let David do as he likes. Perhaps God will cause him to see his god is not powerful at all.

I had J. Dwight's tome Things To Come unfortunately I seem to have lost it or packed it away. It was full of good solid information on all eschatological viewpoints, but...he allowed his personal preferences to taint the writing. I think he has gone on to be with the Lord. I've got some Harry Ironside and some other older theology books as well. Despite my differences with them on the Parousia, I respect their other knowledge. My teaching and belief actually historical post-millennialism, not SDA. It's also partial preterist. I don't believe the Pope is 'the antichrist' like many of the Reformers and SDA cultists do however. That's preposterous. You can get your ever-changing eschatology from the newspapers and evening news. I'll get mine from the pages of Scripture and well-proven history. Interestingly...you STILL have not answered my question. Obviously you can't without having to take another look at your beliefs. Now, back to the original topic. IS Islam mentioned in eschatology? Not specifically as Islam, no. Are the Semitic peoples which adhere to Islam mentioned? Yes. The sons of Ishmael compose the Arab people and God promised that they would be a great nation. Obviously, they did become a great and widespread people. Unfortunately, they've embraced this lie of a religion, but I don't believe that this will last.

IS Mr. Gordon by chance Reformed? He certainly sounds like it.

I am not SDA. They're a cult. MY position is more toward the reformed/historical/partial preterist belief. You sidestepped my original question however. Where does Daniel say anything here about 'antichrist'? The facts speak for themselves, he does not say a word about antichrist. Historically, the little horn shows himself to be Nero. Be careful of saying 'the prophet says this" when he obviously doesn't. There is too much of that going around these days, that and taking teachings of famous seminaries (in this case, Dallas Theological Seminary) as gospel truth. DTS took Darby's teachings from C. I. Scofield and Protestant believers (for the most part) have been getting it rammed down our throats ever since. Dare to speak against pre-tribulationism or pre-millennialism and see what happens. Mostly ridicule, but occasionally censure.

Just another casualty in the War of Gog and Magog. I am not surprised. I simply won't shop at Home Depot anymore. The thing that surprises me is that this kind of thing goes on before the very eyes of Christians and they're still trying to project the past into the future instead of seeing this for what it is.

Basically another Magogite blowhard. Of course, the state has no right to issue permission to marry anyway, that is a familial responsibility. As for meat, you can eat or not eat, do you think God cares one way or the other? So long as you receive food with thanksgiving, God could care less what you eat. A Chinese Christian who eats a dog sandwich is just as blessed as an American Christian who eats a burger. I'd like to see them save the planet from what God has in store for it 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. You ain't savin' nuttin' sucka.

The mark of the beast is the incense burned to a Roman Emperor (most specifically Nero) by the apostate Jews. No sense looking for it today, you won't find it. THere are no Emperors left. Interesting thing about the Mark of the Beast in Revelation: It is the exact antithesis of the Mark of God in Deuteronomy 6. Deu 6:8 You shall bind them for a sign on your hand, and they shall be for symbols between your eyes. Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: Such a mark would have significance to Jewish people who had been taught about wearing the Word. It has NONE to us modern folks. What is the writer telling the reader then? Apparently that whomever receives this mark is replacing the true God of Scripture with the Beast. Did the apostate Jews do this? Yes they did...by doing as they were told. Did the Jews of that day not cry out "We have no King but Caesar!" Yes they did. Who incited them to do this? Their leadership. The False Prophet. The Jewish leadership had been given all the authority of the beast to persecute Christians. Witness if you will the words about Paul our brother who had been one of them: Acts 9:1 & 2 Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Whom did Paul go to? THE HIGH PRIEST. And if the Romans were in charge of the region, and history tells us that they were, how could they not be offended at his going to the High Priest for such authority...unless the High Priest and Sanhedrin was already figuratively speaking in bed with the Romans, hence John's calling the Jewish authorities 'the false prophet'. The Sanhedrin had the authority of Rome behind it because they were Emperor Worshipers themselves. Their false teaching that Jesus was not Messiah turned apostate Israel into Rome's mistress. God then cast apostate Israel into a bed of tribulation and punished her double for her sins using Rome to do it. It was the apostate Jewish leadership (the false prophet of Revelation) which sold unbelieving Israel down the river and caused her to receive the mark of the beast, condemning that entire generation except for those became Believers.

Arthur, this is Daniel 8:9 in 5 prominent version of the Scripture. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land]. (KJV) And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. (New KJV) From one of the prominent horns came a small horn whose power grew very great. It extended toward the south and the east and toward the glorious land of Israel. (NLT) Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. (NIV) Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful {Land.} (NASB) Do you see the word ANTICHRIST in any of them? In fact, does anyone else see the word antichrist in any of the aforewritten verses. Here is Daniel 8:9 in the Greek Septuagint translation: καὶ ἐκ τοῦ ἑνὸς αὐτῶν ἐξῆλθεν κέρας ἓν ἰσχυρὸν καὶ ἐμεγαλύνθη περισσῶς πρὸς τὸν νότον καὶ πρὸς ἀνατολὴν καὶ πρὸς τὴν δύναμιν I don't see the word antichristos in the text anywhere here either. In other words: you added something to this Scripture that isn't there. Historically speaking, the little horn is Nero. He persecuted the saints viciously for 42 months (1260 days or 3.5 years of 30 day months) PLEASE STOP ADDING TO SCRIPTURE FOLKS.

"Its interesting to note also that the Syrian pres. Bassar? went to Iran and from that we may see a united alliance of Iran, Syria, Iraq and Turkey. Daniel 7: 2-6: "Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion,... ... And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear,... ... After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard,... " These were the empires of ancient Babylonia, Media-Persia and Greece. The fourth empire (the Roman Empire) was described not with the symbol of any animal, but as having iron teeth. The first 3 empires stretched from what is today Pakistan through Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, and all the way to Greece. Revelation 13: 1-2: "... And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy... ... And the beast which I saw was like unto ... a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of ... a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of ... a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority." Same animal symbols as those used in Daniel. Same part of the world?" The Beast in Revelation 13 is Rome. Rome had many of the qualities of the other empires before. Don't project the past into the future. Rome is NOT going to rise. As for Islam in eschatology, I think that the Magogists will drive it underground or ban it. All of the religiously-inspired terrorism is ruining their dream of a world without ANY religion. (II Thess 2) People in general are tired of Islam's antics. With the large portion of Muslims being Arabic/Semitic peoples though, it's also possible that the LORD will do a great thing there and bring them to Christ.

This is correct. Just because 'so and so' says it, or this seminary has taught doctrine X for hundreds of years, or Paster Yadda-yadda's book says it DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. We are in the apostasy predicted by Paul in II Thess 2 and you can watch one denomination after another fall. Most recently was the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) which now allows 'under special circumstances' (yeah, right) the ordination of homosexuals in committed life-long relationships. (Be right back, I'm gonna go throw up.) Churches of varying stripes now teach 'tolerance', the Magogian word meaning 'you will do what we say when we say it and encourage and allow us to practice our filth or we will demonize and persecute you in the media as intolerant and unloving.' Don't be surprised, it's going to get worse. The Church is becoming like Lot. Lot didn't like what was going on, but he had lived amongst it for so long that he had become used to it and accepted it as part of the culture. The War of Gog and Magog is largely ideological and spiritual. The army of Gog is not armed with guns and tanks and planes so that we see them obviously, they're sneaky and devious. They're in your legislatures, your schools, the White House, the UN, the media, the colleges and universities, the CHRISTIAN seminaries and they've been turning the water temperature up on us frogs in the pot for years now. Meanwhile, our own ministers have been educated in their seminaries as well, buying their theological lies and feeding them to us. What are some of them? 1. Don't judge: Jesus never said that. He said don't judge unless you are willing to be judged by the same criteria you use to judge. Paul tells us that we ARE to judge those inside the Church. 2. This world belongs to Satan: This lie has been the big battering ram which Gog has used to get the Church to abrogate its responsibility in the world If this is Satan's world then why did Jesus say "All authority in heaven and earth is given unto ME." Is Jesus Satan? Obviously not. Even when the nations were being blinded by Satan, it was NOT his world . The Scriptures clearly state: "The earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof, the world and all who dwell therein." God never gave jack-spit to the devil. Not after Adam sinned and never at anytime. 3. Be like Jesus, meek and mild: Oh boy, you need a supersised shovel for this one. Jesus was meek and mild at times, but He was also passionate and manly at times as well. The same Jesus who bounced little kids on his knees bounced moneychangers out of the Temple on their rear ends, chasing them with a whip which HE MADE. The same Jesus who cried over Jerusalem stared down Pharisees and told them "Your house is left to you desolate." The same Jesus who laughed and jested with his friends rebuked them for their wrongs. He even put his mother in her proper place at Cana. Would to God that we were more like Him as He really was. 4. Jesus loved everybody: Well if you think He loved the Pharisees, you have another thought coming. They were the primary destroyers of Israel. He couldn't stand them. They were opposed to His Father, opposed to everything He stood for, they twisted the Scripture to their own ends and He chewed them a new one every chance He got. He knew their hearts. To Him, they were sons of the Devil. "You are of your father the devil..." Yup, sounds like love to me. 5. The gifts of the Spirit have passed away: They WILL pass away, when that which is perfect comes. In other words, at the Second Coming, when the restoration of all things takes place. We will not need them then. We DO need them now. 6. Sensationalism gooood: Bark like a dog. Howl like a wolf. Babble in some unintelligible 'language'. Cast out 'demons of smoking' and so forth. Make people barf up demons into buckets. Whatever brings in the crowd...and the cash. 7. Politics baaaaad: This goes along with #2 above. If you are led to think this is Satan's world, then you shouldn't be involved in the way things are run. Why work for Satan. It's OK to complain about it though when the heathen are running your country into the ground and legislating laws against Christianity and hauling your fellow Believers off to jail. Early Believers didn't think like that. They affected society for Christ with godly laws, put godly men into office who were above reproach and they RULED. These are just a few of the lies we've swallowed over time. Beware of them...

Hey One Light: I'll hold the bag, you shovel. The rest of you...WELL DON'T JUST STAND THERE, GO CORRAL THE BULL!

Matthew 13:30, 13:39, Jesus will send angels to gather us from the grave. Exactly. On the LAST DAY (which Yeshua says over and over and over again) the Archangel will bow the trumpet, the angels will gather up Believers from the grave, live Believers will change and dead wicked will be rejuvenated. The rapture is a word we use to describe the changing of LIVE Believers from mortal bodies to immortal bodies. Deceased Believers will be brought forth FIRST. Then the Rapture of live Believers and finally the rejuvenation of the wicked dead. (Not resurrection, the wicked dead are NOT resurrected into new bodies, but rejuvenated [brought back to life as WE know it] into the same body we had. Revelation 20 is the key to a lot of the questions people ask. The Last Day occurs after the Messianic Era and the rebellion of Gog and Magog. If I had to make a chart, it would look something like this: 1. Daniel's 70 weeks/coming of Messiah 2. Death and Resurrection of the Messiah (middle of the 70 weeks) 3. Coronation of Messiah as King (the Ascension) 4. Beginning of the Messianic Era with Messiah reigning from heaven (NOT earth as is commonly and erroneously taught) 5. Establishment of the Holy Assembly (Ekklesia/Church) "My house shall be a house of prayer for ALL the peoples" 6. The Great Tribulation/Time of Jacob's Trouble (66-70 AD) when apostate Israel is punished for her rejection of Messiah. Apostate Israel aligns with Rome and worships the Beast (Roman Emperors, notably Nero) with the permission of the Sanhedrin (The False Prophet) and those who do so receive the Mark of the Beast. (The jist of the Revelation) 7. The judgment of the Great Whore and her Beast Lover (Rev 17, Eze 16, Jer 51) Rome's power is broken, Israel is dispersed amongst the nations. 8. Satan is captured and bound to keep the nations from being deceived about the True God. The Godly dead reign from the throne with Christ, which leads to: (Rev 20) 9. Fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy that the whole earth would be filled with the knowledge of God. (Knowing something and actually BELIEVING it are two different things. The world KNOWS that our God exists, missionaries have gone out now for 2000 plus years. Christianity has taught about Jesus in every major country.) 10. Turning of the nations to Messiah and the establishment of Christianized society. Christianity became the PRE-DOMINANT religion, the great mountain. Christianity brought great things to the world, most notably freedom. God punished/punishes those nations who violated His Law. Some right away, others over time. A Christianized society simply means that the Law of God and the principles God laid down in Scripture were used to establish societies instead of heathen teachings. This on occasion made some countries subservient to others (India to Britain for example) 11. The end of the Messianic Age (Millenium, Thousand years, Church Age, all euphemisms for the same thing), the rise of apostasy in the Church and the loosing of Satan, rise of the Man of Sin and the Last Great Rebellion/War of Gog and Magog. 12. The Last Day... a. Fire falls from out of heaven to consume the wicked b. The Resurrection of the righteous occurs c. The Rapture of living saints (These 3 events occur near simultaneously, but so fast as to be indistinguishable to human concept and reasoning ability. Basically, fire falls as the Resurrection/Rapture occur, we meet Christ in the air and return to the destroyed earth.) d. The wicked are raised, judged and hurled into Gehenna with their master Satan-Gog e.The Lord re-creates the Heavens and the Earth (Rev 21) f. Believers populate it for eternity, enjoying an Edenic situation world-wide and the Presence of Almighty God in Christ forever.

D. James Kennedy did a study on this whilst he was still amongst us. It was enlightening. I too have the Gospel in the Stars and it's a good read, but very meaty, Remember at one point in time, all of Adam's sons worshipped the Most High God and used the stars to tell of seasons and events, Cain or one of his descendants was probably the first to pervert the teaching, If I had to guess anyone in particular, I'd say Nimroud bar Cush (Nimrod), although it might have come earlier.

***Sigh*** This is what happens when non-Biblical terms are applied to Scriptural events: CONFUSION. CONFUSION IS FROM THE DEVIL. "The rapture" is specific point in time during the Second Coming when the bodies of living Believers are changed from mortal to immortal. No more, no less. So YES, there will be a rapture. It occurs at the Second Coming, ON THE LAST DAY. Not before. It is part and parcel of the resurrection of the dead and occurs a nanosecond after the raising of the previously dead saints.

When the Rapture comes, the godless will be getting pelted with fire (Rev 20). We will change so fast, they will not know what happened and our pets as part of creation will be remade. So, fat chance they will make a thin dime. May their money perish with them.

You could make it a little clearer that your thread refers to a rather peculiar sect with hang ups about musical instruments, rather than The Church of Christ in general. I'm familiar with the International Church of Christ (Boston). This gent was from the older and more established Church of Christ, which after a little study I found also is called the "Campbellite movement." It has been around for a very long time. 1. The man told me that they did NOT believe in baptismal regeneration (baptism in order to be saved) but obedience baptism. When I asked what would happen if someone were to believe, then die before they could be baptized, he launched into this spurious argument that God would not allow such a thing to happen. When I inquired about the thief on the cross, his answer was that Christ had not died yet, so the thief was still under the Law. 2. The whole 'no music' thing was because there is no specific example of there having been music in the NT. I asked him if they believed in the Old testament, and right away (very reminiscent of a cultist) he gave me the answer that after Christ died, the mode of worship changed and that we were to make melody in our hearts and not on instruments. When I asked if I make a melody in my heart, why can't I accompany it with an instrument, he brought up Nadab and Abihu who offered strange fire to the LORD and were killed by God for it. 3. The Church of Christ name argument is specious, the local churches are also called: a. by their cities in Revelation b. the churches of God by Paul in Romans 4. The whole idea of targeting people who are already Believers seems to be a tactic of theirs. The first question I was asked was "Are you a Bible student?" 5. They do not believe that people are born sinners (Pelegianism if I recall my heresies.) 6. Their salvation is very man-dependent, and can be lost. Apparently their Christ's blood is not sufficient to wash away ALL our sins, just the ones before baptism. While the CoC may not be cultic, it certainly has some aspects of cultism. Not my cup of tea.

I happened across one of their people at a local gas station a day or so ago. This guy sounded like a total stoned cultist with a canned answer for everything. These people don't even allow music in their services because there are no examples of music in the New Testament. Is anyone here familiar with the meatier portions of their teachings?

Guys, guys, guys. The whole FEMA camp thing started with some guy named William Pabst who wrote a booklet which was picked up during the Reagan years by a group called SPIRAL (Society for the Protection of Individual Rights And Liberties). I still have an original copy. It was full of the very same grainy photos which are still bandied about here on the Internet almost 30 years later. It's bull. None of it has EVER happened, none of it ever WILL happen. As Gog and Magog gets closer to their stated goal of destroying the Holy City (the Church), those nations which formerly espoused Christian principles will continue to apostasize and see the resulting loss of freedoms. Gog and Magog will never achieve their stated goal, because Christ will come and destroy them instead. Don't get caught up in every pre-millennialist fairy tale of multiple comings and over-literalized (and already past in many cases) events from the Revelation.

This movement is Gog and Magog. It's Satan leading the lost against God in one last great final battle. It has both spiritual and physical aspects. Physically, things such as humanism and political correctness and ultra-environmentalism and hatred of Christianity and advocation of homosexuality are its manifestations. Spiritually, the nonsense of which you speak is one of its manifestations.

Do remember Matt, not all who are IN Israel are OF Israel. Not every ethnic Jew will believe on Yeshua as Moschiach, but the REMNANT whom God has elected by grace. Only Father God knows who that remnant is. The nation of Israel is not a country in the Middle East, but a people set aside by God to serve Him. These are both Jew AND Gentile. The original Believers were of the remnant, the Gentile believers are the grafted in part of the nation of Israel and newer Jewish believers are part of the remnant as well. En toto, they comprise the Church, the called out ones. God's Israel Church is both Jew and Gentile reconciled to God by Yeshua's death and resurrection. Turtle, as to whether this is the thousands of years (what some call the Millenium) will depend upon whom you ask. I believe we are PAST the Millenium in what Scripture calls the "Little Season" when Satan is released to make one last fight against the Church. Others do not.