MrClark

I've heard many atheists say that Christians are naive or are deluding themselves by thinking that life exists after death. That Christians (unlike atheists) are too afraid and immature to face the total annihilation of consciousness that awaits us after death. Some of them have seemed almost gleeful to me in anticipation of this, simply to prove that they were right and we were wrong. This has always bothered me, not because of the (implied or overt) insults, but because of the way they seem to await their demise. If it were true, that death was the final end, why would this be something that anyone would look forward to? Nothing you would have ever done in your life would mean anything. Indeed all of human existence would mean nothing. There would be no point to morality, lawfulness, mercy, or charity. The only point would be hedonism. Moreover, even if there was no other call to believe in an afterlife other than a fifty-fifty chance of it existing or no, with no indications either way, why would you choose to look forward to oblivion rather than something that would provide meaning and purpose? If a group of people was exploring a cave and a collapse occurred, stranding them in the dark, they would surely look forward to the hope of rescue even though they may not have better than a fifty-fifty chance of making it out alive. In this case such an outlook is called optimism, but in the case of an afterlife it's termed childish fantasy. Why? The truth is I do take great comfort in the belief of a life everlasting. If that makes me childish, well, I can live with that if the alternative is eagerly awaiting my destruction just to prove a point. We have no concept of true oblivion because we have nothing comparable, even nothing is something. Maybe that is why people aren't afraid of it. I don't want to not-exist though. I want to exist, I want to be. I guess I also just wanted to know I'm not alone.

Personally I think theology is very important when evangelizing or witnessing. I think when we speak with unbelievers, whether we like it or not that person is judging all of Christianity based on us. If we come across as ignorant or uninformed, how does that make Christianity look? They may then go on to tell others that Christians are intolerant, bigoted, ignorant, foolish, etc., which you can imagine spread like ripples in a pond. For this same reason I think it's most important to act like a Christian, after all actions speak louder than words.

Jade - I may have misconstrued what you said, but I think you're using the term 'faith' a little unfairly here. Imagine a world where electrons didn't exist, none of us would be here to have this conversation. Now imagine that they do exist, but we don't know what they are or how they work. We would still see evidence of them everywhere, TV's, electricity, pretty much the entire field of chemistry. It wouldn't be so unreasonable for me to then say 'something must be working at the atomic level, I don't know what it is but it surely must be there or else we wouldn't be here'. The scientists in the article are basically just saying the same thing. It doesn't require faith to believe something like that exists when we see evidence of its existence all around us.

I've read several articles stating that the epidemic of obesity in the United States has gotten to the point where it threatens national security. The current number one reason military applicants are turned away is their weight. I've also read that if the draft needed to be initiated, the pool of candidates is too small to provide a viable fighting force. When the problem gets this bad I think it's the government's responsibility to step in and govern. Not that I necessarily agree children should be taken from their parents, but something needs to be done.

Honestly I'd rather just talk with someone about God than be preached at. Likewise I don't think I'd much like preaching to someone, I'd prefer to just speak with them about God.

I wouldn't argue that humans are not important. Though stating that the universe in its entirety exists solely for humans is a little vainglorious I think. If you are unfamiliar with it, I'd suggest reading about the Anthropic Principle. There are many variants, though essentially it states that the universe seems so well suited to us because if it were not we wouldn't be here to observe it. Mankind once thought the Earth was the center of creation, yet Christians are repeatedly called to be humble. Need we really put ourselves once more in the center of the universe?

That is truly a beautiful reply. Look, I am a bit off center because I'm waiting for my biopsy results and maybe guilty of over posting, but I was intrigied by self-reliance and God. And the first web I found was written by Rabbi Morrison. Who say's the real question is this: "when are we do to our outmost to remedy the situation ourselves and when should we rely on God? Christianity brings to mind Christ saying, "without me you can not to do anything." [paraphrased]. On the other hand we get Christians that die because they refuse to be helped by anyone but God. You say, "we can be self-reliant, but humble in knowing that our strength and fortitude to rely on ourselves from God." This is great but then why do Christians make so many bad decisions? And it's encouraged at least by my Priest to give my burdens to Christ, but that is not always easy. Anyway, thanks for you're reply. Oak I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers, Oak. I wouldn't feel guilty about over-posting though, forums are for sharing after all. I think Christians (especially this one) make so many bad decisions because we are human. We are torn between what God wants of us and what we want for ourselves. Even when we try and choose to do what we think God would want of us, how can we be sure that we are truly doing his will? This is something I wrestle with often. I try and remind myself though that no matter how horrible a mistake I may have made, there is none that God cannot use for good. I heard a joke about self-reliance and God a while back. You may have heard it... A small town near a river flooded and everyone scrambled to the roofs of their houses. A little while later a boat came along picking people up. When the boat got to a certain house they told the man on top to get in the boat so they could leave for safety. The man replied 'No thanks! God will save me,' and so the boat went on its way. As the flood waters rose a second boat came along and again told the man to get in the boat, as he would soon be underwater. 'That's alright!' The man replied, 'God will save me!' Unable to convince him, the boat left. As the waters climbed higher, a last boat came along. 'I don't need your help, God will save me!' The man said. The people on the boat tried and tried to convince him but he wouldn't budge. Finally they gave up and left. A while later the waters rose even higher and the man drowned. As he stood before the gates of heaven he said to God, 'I don't understand! I waited for you to save me but you let me drown!' God replied to the man, 'What are you talking about? I sent you three boats!'

I once read a description of humility as the ability to have built the most magnificent cathedral on earth and know it as such, and be no more pleased with that than if someone else had done it. A little simple, perhaps, but I like it. Self-reliance isn't contrary to living a Christian life, pride is. We can be self-reliant, but humble in knowing that our strength and fortitude to rely on ourselves come from God.

Shiloh - I added the word tricky myself, I was merely paraphrasing. If I had been quoting you directly I would have used full quotations marks " " or the quote box. For those skeptics who seem overly-emphatic about definitive proof of God's existence, I usually just ask them for definitive proof of God's non-existence. As for the rest of your post - I understand what you are saying. As for myself, I think I am not as good at judging other people's motivations as you. I would rather waste hours of my time on many and be thought a fool to save one from damnation than not waste my time at all. But to each his own. Dragoon - Hello! You made some very interesting points, and I liked the passage you provided. Corinthians is full of enlightening messages. I hope to see you on the worthy boards in the future! Cheers~

You made some good points Mr Clark, but how can one be good salt of the earth if he/she only lets their light shine within the four walls of the Church? Side note: By chance would you be a certain Blacksmith from Central Pennsylvania that I know? Just thought I'd ask, never know. I agree, I think we should strive to be better people in all aspects of our lives, not just at church. I think you have me confused with another Clark Though I know a bit about metals I'm no blacksmith, and I'm from the other side of the country.

I think everyone approaches Christianity in different ways. Thus while one person might feel that letting their light shine take the form of volunteering at an animal shelter, another might think that only church-related activities constitute 'light-shining' and so the first person isn't Christian. I also think that some people tend to take the 'my way or the highway' approach, and anyone who doesn't conform isn't a true Christian. Just my conjecture though.

It seems like what started out as a thread about apologetics is slowly turning into a debate on creationism. Anyways, Shiloh (and the others in this same vein of thought)- I noticed you said you don't answer 'tricky' questions from unbelievers because they mock our faith. I understand not wanting to listen to people mocking something held so dear, but how can you be sure that mockery is what these people intended? I've had people who were genuinely curious ask me difficult questions about Christianity, and I never shy away from trying to answer. If someone is truly attempting to insult your faith I agree they shouldn't be suffered, but refusing to answer any such questions does more harm than good. Some people honestly find these difficult questions a stumbling block in their walk with God, and if we don't even attempt to reconcile them we come across as ignorant and narrow-minded. Heather - It's been my experience that those on secular forums do tend to be a bit more vulgar (with language at least). I agree with Candice, take a break from those boards if they are seriously causing you to doubt. Be careful though, don't completely insulate yourself from opposing viewpoints. It may seem paradoxical but I think one of the greatest things we can to do strengthen our faith is to question it. Think of it as a muscle. Our muscles only grow strong if we work them, our faith grows strong when we test it against conflicting ideologies. That way we can stand and say to those against us 'Yes I've heard and understand your arguments, and still I remain unconvinced. Not through blind assurances, but through reason and the courage of my conviction.' Cheers~!

OldEnglish - Well don't tell that to the Catholics, they're responsible for putting together the book you're using to denounce them. Isaiah - I did read your first post, my point was that all the world's religions differ so it's difficult to draw a comparison between them. As for my mentioning Islam, that was just for the purpose of an example and didn't have anything to do with your previous conversation with A Muslim. Like i said before, Catholics (along with much of Eastern Orthodoxy) largely hold that faith and works are needed for salvation. As for what the Bible says on the subject, if they didn't have scriptural support I doubt their position would have remained tenable for so long. Regardless, this post is about why Christianity is the only path to salvation, not what that entails, so let's end our discussion and get back on topic. Cheers!

I recently read this book as well. Not having been there to witness these events firsthand it's difficult for anyone to form an accurate opinion of what really happened. If what the author of the book says is really true, I think some of what the boy experienced may have been real, though I do feel a large portion of it was fabricated. Of course the author might also be fibbing a bit to sell his book, he wouldn't be the first one.

In regards to your original post Isaiah 6:8, blithely stating all the world's religions with the exception of Christianity are the same is a gross oversimplification. Shintoism, for example, is vastly different from Islam. I'm not arguing that Christianity isn't the only way to eternal salvation, but it's not the 'right' religion simply because it's "truly different." Also for someone who has been so vociferously defending a faith-alone approach to salvation I would be a little more cautious. You should at least acknowledge the controversy within our own Christian church between those who believe that faith alone is enough to save us, and those (particularly our Catholic brethren) who believe that faith and good works are necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven.