JohnD

Matt, Who releases HaSatan from the abyss? Rev 20.

I think this question comes up every couple of weeks lol. I mainly use the NASB, but I am getting into the ESV...mine has excellent marginal notes and commentaries. I also use Greek and Hebrew versions...Orthodox Jewish, and David Stern's translation with commentary. I like the KJV and one or two others...I have never used the NIV. Though I have become a bit rusty in my Greek and Hebrew I also use the Tanakh, interlinear (since I never spoke the original languages... fluently, at any rate) after years of searching out nuances in every nook and cranny I found the modern English (modern from the 1600's LOL) translations are very very accurate and such in depth research is not always necessary. I first learned on the original NIV (having not much to go on with my Dad's old RSV. I still cringe at that translation and the NRSV. I graduated to the NASB (which then was the NASV ...dating my self) and then with the help of Chuck Missler, I rediscovered the KJV. He made some very good points in that all translations have difficulties (due to the imperfection of human language and communication and understanding, btw). But the KJV's difficulties have had 400 years of scrutiny and documentation. Plus for me, I find the language keeps me on my toes searching out the meaning of the old English words and expressions and I also double check it with the original languages as that point. Also the KJV and the NASB tend to be more word-for-word translations (though the KJV does it a bit more smoothly).

Point being... we can argue at any point in history that something or someone never existed. But when we are forced to apply that argument to the totality of history then the flaws in their arguments begin to scream here I am. Until recently, people could argue there was no King David... discounting the biblical testimony of course. Before the pillars at Cesarea Phillippi were unearthed they could claim there was no Pontius Pilate... discounting the biblical testimony of course. I wonder if it ever occurred to minds like Hawkings (setting aside the poor showing of the church down through history) that this book that keeps getting proved authentic and correct actually IS the words of God... I wonder...

Ask an atheist where all things came from (originally). I dunno Ask an atheist where did the laws of physics come from. I dunno Then the atheist adds "But I know God didn't do it!"

Sometimes I think people, even learned and experienced people, do not realize what they are saying when it comes to globalism. GHW Bush was speaking publicly about the New World Order. And I do not believe it was from arrogance as much as from ignorance. There are too many secularists in charge of too much that is important or detrimental to life here on earth. To them, Christianity is just another superstition / religion. Their philosophy (even though unbeknownst to them is a religion) is the tangible. What they can see and feel and smell and taste or calculate. They are blissfully unaware of how they serve Satan. And things like globalism makes perfect sense to minds whose only truth is secularism. It blinds them to so much.

I note in John chapter 17 among the many theological gems there a prayer of the Messiah to the Father that there be unity in the body of believers A unity that he harped on in the text and compared to the unity in the Godhead itself. A unity the Church has not known for nearly 17 centuries. The reason we have so many denominations is not so much the proper fitting to an individual's own preferences or comfort, but because mere mortal men keep trying to reinvent the wheel... from all the other worldly manifestations depicting how mere mortal men have determined the Church of God should be. We have the blueprint in the Bible. But because people do not take the Bible to heart or do not believe it is the final court of arbitration which God set it up to be... then it's a matter of interpretation based on the opinions, experiences, and traditions concocted by mere mortal men (and women). My wife and I have been in and a part of many denominations over the past 5 decades. And all seem to echo the Roman Imperial take over in the 4th Century CE which the Church has never fully recovered from. Briefly, Constantine (who died a sun worshiper) saw in outlaw Christianity a cohesiveness his crumbling empire sorely lacked. He may not have envisioned the way the Roman Empire itself morphed into a religion (that which outlasts kings and kingdoms, emperors and empires a religion specifically the Roman Catholic Empire), but Constantine saw it possessed what his empire lacked and desperately needed; cohesiveness. He and his mother set out to build a religion with a fervor most religionists possess regardless the trueness of their path. Despite these interferences many Christian doctrines found their way to the light of day since they were and are so biblical. But regarding Church structure and those sort of doctrines... well, the emphasis on extrabiblical writings and traditions (to the point of precedent over scripture) is indication itself as to the error of those doctrines. For one thing, the Church was never meant to be set up as an us and them function (clergy / laity). For we are all priests before God (1 Peter 2:3-9 Revelation 1:6 / 5:10). We are not all pastors but we are all priests in our various ministries. And we are to congregate not cathedralize (which often passes off as the total fulfillment of our spiritual obligation and duty to Christ and just parking our pork in the pew is not the fulfillment of our ministries at all). I agree with others here that Messianic Judaism comes the closest to the first century Church, but even it has the cathedralization taint here and there from the traditions of men which Jesus himself said nullifies the Word of God. This is rubbish. You know very little about the history of the Church. Matthew 16 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 18 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Luke 10 16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." John 20 21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." 1 Timothy 3 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 2 Thes 2 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 1 John 1 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. 1 John 4 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood. John 17 20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. Not rubbish. Truth. Let's look at the record. John 17 (KJV) 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. No recitation of apostolic authority (which died with the eyewitnesses of Jesus death and resurrection btw) and has since been placed in the scriptures themselves 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (KJV) 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. Psalm 138:2 (KJV) 2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

The greatest thing I believe the Church lacks in the perpetual spiritual war is the day to day awareness of it. In real war, where the fighting is not way behind the lines across oceans from the origin of the troops in the fight (like most American wars since the 1800's)... but right there in the front lines and in the embattled nations there is a day to day moment to moment awareness of the war itself. I believe we have become too much like the nation that only participates in the war overseas and unlike the nation in the thick of the war in the Body Christian. This and the forgetfulness of the spiritual warfare within our own bodies are recipes for losing ground in the war and eventually losing the war (from our perspective). God will prevail. Most people will not. Few there are that find the narrow way. Instead we meander around in the minefield of sin and death with no spiritual preparation and no disciplining of the flesh other than that which society deems worth to. An example of spiritual warfare and how far behind enemy lines we live these days is me (having a problem with lust and ever at war with it) walk into a business where I do not expect to see a young receptionist wearing very short shots standing right where she would be in full view as I entered (looking down) sorting the items in my hands that I was delivering there. Ordinarily I can keep my eyes from going "down there" but this time they started "down there" from the courier items I was bringing. I spent most of the rest of the day "dealing with" this. Many even here might say what's the big deal? This is because we are so desensitized to the evil of lust. This posting is taking on a life of its own (so to speak) but I feel urged by the Spirit to continue. Because we are so desensitized to that which goes on in our world and ignorant of the victories lust gives to the side of evil. America has become quite the cesspool of lust to daily swim through (to say nothing of the internet). Oy! Most are familiar with:Matthew 5:27-30 (KJV) 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. The thing is there is more to why he said it than most realize. There was a teaching at the time started by Hillel (the grandfather of Gamaliel) about a generation and a half before the Lord was born in which (among many other excuses in this teaching) a man could divorce (put out) his wife. Some know about the teachings which a husband could hold this over his wife for disobedience having only to repeat the statement three times to make it law. "I divorce thee, I divorce thee," and usually at this point the wife abjectly submitted. It was a brutal time for women. But Hillel taught that women were guilty of a divorceable offense (adultery) if they showed their legs in public before males who were not their husband even if by accident... based on these scriptures: Isaiah 47:1-3 (KJV) 1 Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate. 2 Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. 3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man. Leviticus 18:8 (KJV) 8 The nakedness of thy father’s wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father’s nakedness. Without refuting Hillel, Jesus answered him saying: Matthew 5:27-30 (KJV) 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. In other words, Hillel got right Isaiah 47:1-3 and Leviticus 18:8, but he forgot all about Job 31:1-13: Job 31:1-13 (KJV) 1 I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid? 2 For what portion of God is there from above? and what inheritance of the Almighty from on high? 3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity? 4 Doth not he see my ways, and count all my steps? 5 If I have walked with vanity, or if my foot hath hasted to deceit; 6 Let me be weighed in an even balance, that God may know mine integrity. 7 If my step hath turned out of the way, and mine heart walked after mine eyes, and if any blot hath cleaved to mine hands; 8 Then let me sow, and let another eat; yea, let my offspring be rooted out. 9 If mine heart have been deceived by a woman, or if I have laid wait at my neighbour’s door; 10 Then let my wife grind unto another, and let others bow down upon her. 11 For this is an heinous crime; yea, it is an iniquity to be punished by the judges. 12 For it is a fire that consumeth to destruction, and would root out all mine increase. 13 If I did despise the cause of my manservant or of my maidservant, when they contended with me; And we go about this one time Christian Nation completely oblivious to this evil which we daily participate in from one side of the coin or the other. The greatest weapon in war is a lack of information.

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV) 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. In keeping with the title of the OP and the thread... Are You Really Ready For Eternity? How certain are you that you have not climbed the wrong spiritual ladder only to find out on Judgment day that it was the wrong ladder? How many have prophesied in the name of the Lord? How many have cast out devils in the name of the Lord? How many have done many wonderful (which at times in the Bible means miraculous) works in the name of the Lord? Did you only pray a prayer? Walk an aisle? Get dunked or sprinkled? Paid your tithes? Come to the church building every time the doors opened? Or did you KNOW the Lord? More importantly does he KNOW you? We say and hear doctrinal catch phrases which become glib in our minds "personal relationship with the Lord" for example... that we do not understand or subscribe to the meaning anymore. We are the victims of our own jargon / Christianese. Do you really know the Lord? Have you even tried to read up on him in the Bible? Studied what God wrote about the Lord Jesus to even learn who and what and how he is? Or is some idea or depiction in your head or what others told you good enough? Can you imagine the grief on judgment day when facing the Lord who never knew you... for your being too lazy or to busy or too unconcerned or too in love with the world and your life to have even tried to know the God who repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly reached out to know you? Luke 14:25-35 (KJV) 25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. 34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I note in John chapter 17 among the many theological gems there a prayer of the Messiah to the Father that there be unity in the body of believers A unity that he harped on in the text and compared to the unity in the Godhead itself. A unity the Church has not known for nearly 17 centuries. The reason we have so many denominations is not so much the proper fitting to an individual's own preferences or comfort, but because mere mortal men keep trying to reinvent the wheel... from all the other worldly manifestations depicting how mere mortal men have determined the Church of God should be. We have the blueprint in the Bible. But because people do not take the Bible to heart or do not believe it is the final court of arbitration which God set it up to be... then it's a matter of interpretation based on the opinions, experiences, and traditions concocted by mere mortal men (and women). My wife and I have been in and a part of many denominations over the past 5 decades. And all seem to echo the Roman Imperial take over in the 4th Century CE which the Church has never fully recovered from. Briefly, Constantine (who died a sun worshiper) saw in outlaw Christianity a cohesiveness his crumbling empire sorely lacked. He may not have envisioned the way the Roman Empire itself morphed into a religion (that which outlasts kings and kingdoms, emperors and empires a religion specifically the Roman Catholic Empire), but Constantine saw it possessed what his empire lacked and desperately needed; cohesiveness. He and his mother set out to build a religion with a fervor most religionists possess regardless the trueness of their path. Despite these interferences many Christian doctrines found their way to the light of day since they were and are so biblical. But regarding Church structure and those sort of doctrines... well, the emphasis on extrabiblical writings and traditions (to the point of precedent over scripture) is indication itself as to the error of those doctrines. For one thing, the Church was never meant to be set up as an us and them function (clergy / laity). For we are all priests before God (1 Peter 2:3-9 Revelation 1:6 / 5:10). We are not all pastors but we are all priests in our various ministries. And we are to congregate not cathedralize (which often passes off as the total fulfillment of our spiritual obligation and duty to Christ and just parking our pork in the pew is not the fulfillment of our ministries at all). I agree with others here that Messianic Judaism comes the closest to the first century Church, but even it has the cathedralization taint here and there from the traditions of men which Jesus himself said nullifies the Word of God.

Yeah, I was going to say (but someone else caught it) that the OP has Jacob and Isaac confused with each other. Jacob is a depiction of carnality in spiritual training / discipleship. Esau is a depiction of carnality (one who puts worldly possession and circumstance on par with or above spirituality). One thing that can be said about the Bible over all is that it is the record of God's efforts to wean humanity off of worldliness / the flesh and to spirituality / spiritualism... specifically righteous spirituality. Jacob was no doubt a mess. He was worldly and conniving and prideful about his cons. This he apparently got from his mother Rebecca who concocted the scheme to keep Isaac and Esau from giving Esau the birthrite after all. (Make no mistake, what Esau tried to make out to be a distinct blessing from the birthrite was in actuality the birthrite itself... read the details of the so-called blessing Genesis 27:38-40). Isaac and Esau tried to outmaneuver team Rebecca and Jacob and they were outmaneuvered by the latter. But then, Jacob (at the behest of his scheming mother who laid all the blame on Jacob btw see verse 46) went to Mesopotamia to the home turf of conning and the master conniver uncle Laban who conned Jacob continually for some 20 years. But the Lord intervened and showed who is really in charge of life and matters mere mortal men take upon themselves to perform. Note well the outcomes. Laban lost a good part of his family wealth plus the household gods Rachel stole (and hoodwinked him from finding). Jacob got a lesson in the school of hard knocks about his conniving (a 20 year fellowship of sorts). Esau ended up with all the worldly wealth of Abraham and Isaac after all because Jacob's fortune was made in Mesopotamia from Laban's house. And in the end, even those fortunes were lost to the great famines at the end of the lives of Jacob and Esau. In the end, God prevailed in all their lives. Esau, like so many throughout the generations, never saw the use for spirituality. To those in that kind it is a kind of opiate for the masses. They cannot perveive of it being anything more.

The Body of believers (the assembly / great assembly / Olive Tree / Israel) goes back to the beginning. See Hebrews 11. Abel son of Adam is listed. It does not change. The progression of God's revelation and the covenants changed. The body of believers have not. Spirit Israel predates physical Israel.

Nope. {sigh} Shiloh, replacement theology is a group of believing Gentiles who think God is finished with Israel and therefore the promises of Israel are now bestowed upon them. God is not finished with physical Israel (whether they are in faith or not). If the individual Jew dies in unbelief, well, unbelief is no different for the Jew than the Gentile. But collectively, God still chooses physical Israel. The Great Tribulation will come because that is what it will take to get the collective of physical Israel that survives to that point to cry out to Yeshua Jesus. What you are not getting about what I am sharing from the Bible is that Spirit Israel has been around since before physical Israel existed. Israel is the new name of the Messiah. New in the sense that it is generally unknown to humanity until recently. Revelation 3:12 (KJV) 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Yish he Sarar prince Elohiym God... Yisra El Remember, these things were determined before there was an earth. Proverbs 8:23 (KJV) 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. Revelation 13:8 (KJV) 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The Church does not replace physical Israel. Spirit Israel is the body of believers as it has always been. The condition of the body of believers and its Gentilized ways is due to the abdication of the people who were born and bred to lead Spirit Israel but refused to. And the mantle of leadership of the body of believers fell on the Gentiles to do as best they could. It's not replacement theology. How could it be? The door of invitation to the natural branches of the Olive Tree is still open. Romans 11:16-28 (KJV) 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. No, my friend, this is not replacement anything. The Church has no land covenants in Eretz. Christians are not born chosen, we have to come to faith in Yeshua and in so doing... our faith in the Jewish Messiah makes us spiritually Jewish. Not physically Jewish. See? Still nothing replaced.

Barry Setterfield and Trevor Norman did a research paper that listed the various speed of light ( that is, c.) tests over some 500 years. As the years passed the experiments improved and the margin of error grew smaller. The thing that is amazing is that c. has been on a rather exponential decrease in that small amount of time (500 years) even beyond all margins of error. Tracking the decay of c. back 7,000 years or so, c. was as much as 10,000,000 times faster than the current velocity. The evidence was too implicit of a young universe to be accepted in the bullied and badgered scientific community. The evolution overlords in science, education, and media were too well entrenched and fought so hard to force evolution on everyone to allow Setterfield's work to see the light of day and with much persecution. "Atoms can't this and cells won't that..." even on Christian boards you will find people who would rather crucify Setterfield than consider his work and the concrete evidence he shows. And now we see that c. can be surpassed proving that alleged barrier is no barrier at all. Barry Setterfield web cite

I will certainly grant you this thing masquerading around as the Church (goyum goyum goyum) is well off course about being the Jewish / Hebrew New Covenant Body of believers it ought to be. But that is not to say we are to take up our yarmulkes and prayer shawls and start trying to talk like Jackie Mason (as so many want-to-bes do). It's sad and funny at the same time. The "Church" today is a body of believers in identity crisis. Note my interests under my screen name. hint hint The condition of todays Spirit Israel is the direct result of the First Century CE Sanhedrin being so corrupt and abdicating its leadership role in the New Covenant and for imposing fear tactics over Jews who would have otherwise at least given Yeshua Jesus a close going over in the Tanakh... The Gentiles who were left with the task of doing what the Jews were born and bred to do... and they did the best they could. But somewhere along the way they got it in their head that their Gentilized version of the Hebrew Faith was the replacement of the Old Version and it is not. God had New Testament Judaism fully in mind when he drafted the Old Testament / Covenant. The only thing replaced are the covenants (and there are many... the Adamic, Noachian, Abrahamic, Jacobean, and the Mosaic as well as the Messianic). Each was with the other in mind, that is the mind of God. The physical Jews (people born Jewish) are still just as much God's people on earth today as they ever were (whether in belief or not). It won't save them, only faith in their Messiah Yeshua Jesus will. The same as with everyone else. And as Spirit Jews in Spirit Israel we are the chosen from heaven (we are citizens of heaven / the Jerusalem from above and are ambassadors for Christ here on earth). We do not replace the chosen physical Jews. Nor are they All Israel / Spirit Israel until they believe in the Messiah who died and rose from the grave.

Sorry, Shiloh, you are mistaken. Replacement theology is false. And this is not replacement theology. The assembly / ekklesia / Church predates Acts Chapter 2 and even Genesis 12 (the calling of Abram). The assembly of believers is listed in Hebrews 11 and goes all the way back to Abel. The Church / ekklesia / assembly of believers goes by many names. The assembly, the Olive Tree, Spirit Israel, the Israel of God, klal Yisro'el / All Israel... And in fact Yisra'el is a name of the Messiah. Israel is the contraction of the words Yish Sarar and Elohiym. He Prince God. And no the Israel of God does not refer to Jewish believers alone. Let's back the tape up again: Galatians 6:13-16 (KJV) 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Galatians 3:26-28 (KJV) 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2: (KJV) 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Your personally held belief is quite unbiblical, my friend. Sorry. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Sorry John, but you are mistaken. "The Church is Israel" is the crux of Replacement Theology. You really don't understand Replacement Theology. There is no difference between saying "Israel is the Church" or "The Church is Israel." I realize YOU think there is a difference but Replacement Theology uses both interchangably to communicate the same idea. "The Israel of God" refers to Jewish believers. It is not a reference to the Church as whole. Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God (Gal 6:16) The question that must be answered is what does Paul mean in this passage by the term "Israel of God." The assumption of many commentators is that "Israel of God" is used in juxtaposition to the corporate nation of Israel, the Jewish people. So what we must determine is whether or not the context in which it appears allows for that usage to be applied to Paul's words. Part of the problem is how Replacement Theologians handle the word “and” in verse 16, “and upon the Israel of God. It is the Greek word “kai” and can be used in two ways. It is rendered often in English as the conjunction “and” but it can also be rendered in a cumulative form as well, such as the word “even.” Replacement theologians often view this verse in a more cumulative sense, meaning that they use the words, “and the Israel of God” to define the previously mentioned, “all who follow this rule.” That is why they understand the Greek word “kai” as cumulative and do not see it in the form of a conjunction. So to them, the verse could or should read, “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.” So the question is, since we have two valid interpretative methods for this verse, which one is correct? The answer is that context always determines word usage. It does not so much determine word meaning but when you have languages like ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek where the pool of words is smaller than English and words play double, triple and quadruple duty, context is always the “tie breaker,” so to speak. Context demonstrates which of the competing word meanings the author intended. Absent from the context is any attempt to redefine the Church as Israel. That is not the object Paul has in view. Any discussion of Gal. 6:16 must be kept within the parameters of context established by Paul. The term “Israel of God” is used by replacement theologians to denote an “Israel” other than biblical Israel. Thus, the “Israel of God,” which follows “the rule” in verse 15 is defined by replacement theologians as the Church. Yet, the context does not allow for that reading. What it does allow for is the understanding that Paul is talking about Jewish believers in the Messiah. Once again, Dr. Vlach makes an excellent point: "Galatians 6:16 – Paul is referring to Christian Jews in his reference to the “Israel of God.” Paul scolded the Judaizers who said circumcision was necessary for salvation, but he acknowledges those Jews in Galatia who had not followed the Judaizers in their error. These Christian Jews are the true “Israel of God.” Vlach, Michael, Ph.D. Twelve Reasons why Supersessionism/Replacement Theology Is Not a Biblical Doctrine Retrieved with permission from http://www.theologic...age/4425336.htm Paul sees Gentile believers as the seed of Abraham by faith (Gal. 3: 7-29). Paul does not see in existence, a “new Israel” comprised of Gentiles that replace the Jewish people. In fact, to say that “Israel of God” refers to the Church as opposed to biblical Israel, would actually defeat Paul’s previous remarks in Gal. 3:7-29 since He goes to great pains to show how the Gentile believers are included in God’s plan along with the natural seed of Abraham. You are grafted in and are full citizens in the commwealth of Israel, but Gentile believers are not Israelites or "spiritual Jews."

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV) 31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Either gentiles have no hope, or we become part of Israel in this new covenant... but this is in a matter of spirit and not the flesh... Romans 2:28-29 (KJV) 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Philippians 3:3 (KJV) 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. John 4:21-25 (KJV) 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

The Church is Israel. The replacement theology types have it backwards, they teach Israel is the Church.Galatians 6:13-16 (KJV) 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. It's the only thing that could make sense of this verse: Romans 9:6 (KJV) 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: The are not Spirit Israel which are of Physical Israel. Down through the corridors of time the difference, the apartness, the holiness, is the spiritual versus the physical. If you ever have difficulty understanding the Bible at a particular point, remember the warfare between the physical and the spiritual. This has always been the dividing line. And Physical Israel has had a specific calling that cost them much down through the ages. But it is not the means nor the path of salvation. The path of salvation is through the spirit Spirit Israel and it always has been.

For some reason, I cannot start a new thread in this section. What I find interesting is not so much the call of Matthew but the call of Judas... or actually the lack thereof. If my guess is correct, he is the one who said he would follow Jesus anywhere... which Jesus in effect ignored. Observe: Matthew 8:18-22 (KJV) 18 Now when Jesus saw great multitudes about him, he gave commandment to depart unto the other side. 19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. 20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. 21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. The scribe who pledged himself was ignored. The reluctant offspring was specifically called. If the scribe was Judas Iscariot, it would explain how he had easy access to the Sanhedrin, and was in effect their spy.

"Yeah yeah, globalism conspiracy theories... heard 'em all..." The genius of those social engineers in programming these responses in people who otherwise return to having their heads buried in the sand. Brilliant! Sheer genius! Take a good look around at the condition of America. And if this isn't already the case in the nations of any board members here who aren't American, in time it will be. Just like those kooks and cracked pots said it be would be... those conspiracy theorists. People never change. The same tactics used seven thousand years ago work today. I wrote the following to the White House today, and I know it will bristle some here who still believe as I once did that the Republican Party is God's Party. But I hope you will read the entire letter and use your own mind in determining if these things be true or not. I was once a dyed in the wool Republican until I realized all the evidence pointed towards my voting against America for the sake of a greedy class of people who have no vested interest in America at all. Mr. President, I voted for you, sir, to stave off American serfdom. You've not received enough credit for stopping the economic freefall. When the rich / Big Business had the opportunity to prove their benevolence, they outsourced American jobs the first chance they could. Government may not actually create jobs, but it forces business to create local jobs to fill the needs of conducting business on our soil. Otherwise they will never cut into their profit margins out of the kindness of their hearts. They must be compelled by Government to take care of the America that takes care of them. Perception is everything. Over the years Big Business effectively kept the public's attention away from its efforts to undercut the American economy and assigned blame on Government and the working class. It has also effectively tarnished the United States Postal Service over the years. USPS is in the way of communication and shipping cartels charging astronomical prices to all citizens for that which we, in a consumer society, have become so dependent upon. USPS is a Government Entity purposed with keeping commerce and transportation (shipping and communication) open / affordable to all. Without affordable alternatives cartels will form and costs will skyrocket for absolutely everything. All electronic actions transaction will be charged by the keystroke. What is today 44 cents an ounce will be at least $44 an ounce. And all costs will be passed along to the consumer. In short, the economy will collapse. USPS may not be the only thing that propped up the American economy over the years , Mr. President, but its about the only thing left. USPS can be improved. Not by breaking contracts with labor. But by removing the outrageous bargaining agreements with Big Business over the years which hamstrung USPS. The monopoly of first class mail was necessary to protect communication and shipping from usurious costs bankrupting everyone by offering affordable alternatives. Big Business cannot make the profits it wants to make at the prices USPS delivers. By Constitutional law USPS keeps the avenues of commerce open. God bless you, sir. Thank you for your attention. I wrote this as a former career employee of USPS. It dawned on me what is actually happening. If I am correct about this, we'd better start shouting this from the rooftops because it may well be the final lynchpin before an economic crisis that will make the Great Depression look like a paid vacation. You decide.

I agree the scripture clearly says no man (including Jesus) knows the day or the hour he will return. Matthew 24:36 (KJV) 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. It is true he also said: Acts 1:6-7 (KJV) 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But he also said: Matthew 24:29-346 (KJV) 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 16:1-3 (KJV) 1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? We are to heed the signs of the times. and the nearness of them though we cannot know the day or the hour... The graph I have provided earlier in this thread is Daniel 12:11-12 depicting the 70th Week of Daniel when events in the middle of the seven years signify when the beginning of the 70th Week was. We cannot know until the sacrifices of the temple are abated. Then some 105 days later will come the rapture. But those who heed this prophecy will be deep in hiding as not to know if or when the sacrifices are abated.

No takers on Futurism versus preterism?

Never underestimate the ability of an omniscient mind.

I'd love to debate preterism versus futurism in the debate forum. The Bible teaches futurism therefore I would debate peterism in any form.

It doesn't have to be that complicated. It's just a mark of identification (who the bearer of the mark identifies with) Much like this identifies the Jaffa to their god in Stargate: .

Before I am misunderstood or thought of being too hard on the unbelieving Jews, first of all I am only quoting scripture. Second, anyone who turns from God turns towards the devil. There is no alternative. And about the synagogue of Satan, that is a way of saying a synagogue that has turned from God. If the people who turned from God were not Jewish they would simply be pagans and under no consideration whatsoever. Of course their temples are temples of satan who reject God and are Gentile born. You follow? Those born Jewish are the chosen people of God IN THIS LIFE. They are not the Spirit Jews / Spirit Israel who are God's chosen from above / ambassadors from heaven whose citizenship is in the Jerusalem from above... which if they do not persist in their unbelief the Jews can be grafted back into. Romans 11:16-28.