brakelite

Just a little tidbit which some of you may find interesting...others may think I'm simply grasping at straws, others may be shocked. But did you know that John Brennan, a Jesuit trained now CIA chief, was sworn in on a copy of an early original copy of the declaration of independence which did not have the second amendment yet added? Deliberate, or an oversight????

You are correct, a secular government will not recognize the workings of Satan even in her very midst. But neither will a deceived apostate Protestant government who only a few short weeks ago welcomed into her legislative chambers the leader and spokesman for the Antichrist power.

The essence of what we are discussing is 'how do we practice our Christian faith, and by whose authority do we submit?" Ministering the gospel is not a legalistic control exercise. I agree with the article. It is not the church's responsibility to "sanctify" the individual believer. That is solely the work and the prerogative of the Spirit of God working in the heart and mind of the individual through His word. Any attempt we make in doing God's work we are attempting to create other Christians in in our image. It is our duty to introduce people to Jesus, and then let Him do what only He can. Recreate people in His image.

Okay, I can agree with that. Is it Christian today however? The self-interest hedonism of today is an idol for many, and this will nicely meld with the coming one world religion that Satan is now in the process of establishing being one of deception. Do not believe even for a moment that it will be readily recognizable. From the very beginning, Satan/Lucifer has sought worship, and from many this is now taking place...even if it is by proxy...the enemy will take it any way he can get it....but the church...God's elect and true disciples, are the ones Satan is after. He wants EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE ! And he is not going to gain the church (I mean this generically) by getting up into the pulpit and introducing himself..."Good morning brethren, my name is Satan. Please worship me". You know, I know, and Satan knows, that will not work. So he needs to deceive. The religion to take the world into captivity will be, or rather IS, a counterfeit CHRISTIAN faith. It will look, feel, and profess to be everything you would expect from a true faith. The difference though will be manifest to the wise. This church does not have, nor will it ever have, God's blessing. Therefore , because the Holy Spirit will not be involved in its establishment, this counterfeit will need the secular arm of the government to prop it up. Hence the picture we have of Babylon the Great...the woman (the harlot apostate church) riding upon the back of the beast (the state power) who supports her by enforcing the dogmas of her particular brand of Christianity (mark of beast) through legislation and subsequent enforcement and inducement practices, such as controlling the power to buy and sell. Look around you. Who is fanning the flames of a united religious global ecumenical movement? And what is their attitude, (I mean historically as their profession today completely contradicts their history)to religious liberty? Nothing is as it seems.

Nowhere do I see Adam's declaration of the government or the nation being Cristian. Himself, indeed, the state, no.

Thomas Jefferson and James Madison became staunch advocates for religious liberty after defending the Baptists in Virginia against the civil government seeking to impose civil penalties against them for heresy. Those unalienable rights, in particular religious liberty, are to protected by the civil government. The moment any civil government encroaches upon man's conscience with regards his God, regardless of who or what that (G)god is, the government oversteps its bounds. Roger Williams, centuries ahead of his time, was one of the greatest heroes of American history. His example and teachings ought to be imprinted permanently upon every persons mind in America. Sadly, that is not the case, and the US is heading down a road today from which there will be no return, and to which will result utter ruin.

Those kind of demands I could live with. What would bother me is the kind that demands I attend church every Sunday, and if I failed to attend, get fined, whipped, or even given the death penalty as was the case in early American history. Nowhere ought there to be any legislation on any government's books any law, or statute, that stipulates, recommends, demands, or forbids, in any way, any person's duty toward God. Thus there ought not to be any "Christian", "Islamic", or any other type of a so-called "theocracy" governing peoples religious or secular life.

From what I have read, the US was established by Freemasons and deists. They themselves declared that the US was not a Christian nation, nor was it intended to be. And the only difference as to the leaders of the US today is there are no more deists. To my mind the US was established by God Himself using whoever He could find to provide a home for persecuted European Christians. Coming out of a Europe where kings and queens ruled in accordance to papal or Anglican authority the founders of your nation recognized that freedom in its truest sense could only be found in a state with no pope and a religion with no king to confuse and corrupt both religion and state. I think that what we must acknowledge is that America as a nation and her founding fathers were embarking on a brand new revolutionary concept. Religious liberty, freedom of conscience. Coming from a Europe that was just emerging from over 1000 years of papal tyranny the founding fathers of your nation were establishing a nation with an exclusively protestant ethic, the freedom to worship in accordance to ones conscience (and the freedom not to worship if one so chose) even though it took some time for even protestants to learn. (I'm thinking Sunday blue laws). On that note you now have government sanctioned pastors ready to be servants to martial law and demand their congregants to obey govt in emergencies. They have sold out their people big time. We as Christians have far more to fear from governments with a religious agenda (including 'Christian' agendas...read again Revelation 13:11-17 than any secular government. Interestingly, history tells us that Christian communities thrived very well under the rule of such as Genghis Khan, because he was neutral in matters of religion. (Although he was certainly less than tolerant with those who opposed him politically.) I personally wouldn't worry about the removal of religious monuments etc from public places, prayer forbidden in schools, homosexuality, the second ammendment etc. I would far rather the Ten Commandments being written on the heart than on the local governor's front lawn. One must remember that although the Constitution and the Bill of Rights may have been written and signed by and large by godly people be they deists or whatever, those documents were specifically designed to ensure freedom of conscience and religious liberty, even liberty for unbelievers. The US government as a political entity is not, nor ever was , a "Christian" government. And the only true hope for America is not in the "Christianizing" of the government, but in the heartfelt deep life-changing repentant soul-searching conversion of the individual American people.

Thanks Yowm for asking that question, for that was the point of the thread; I didn't really want it to get offtrack into eternal torment because once one realizes that there is no eternal consciousness in death for the sinner except he, as the righteous, is resurrected, then the question of eternal torment becomes irrelevant. There are many aspects one could discuss related to death. But let us leave out all the philosophies of man and the vague interpretive opinions regards what the Bible means, but let us simply and humbly accept what the Bible says. Nor let us choose just one text or passage, but let us survey the whole scripture record, comparing scripture with scripture, line upon line, here a little there a little, and come then to a conclusion weighing up the evidence. First, let us begin where God began...creation. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Here described is the nature of man. Succinctly and clearly, with no ambiguity and no interpretation necessary. Man is a living soul. We are a combination of two things. Dust, and breath of life...spirit. That combination forms the soul. When we die, Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. And as a result of that separation of dust and breath, body and spirit, the soul ceases to exist. As Ezekiel says, the soul that sinneth it shall die. The man, the human being, dies. The body becomes corrupted and turns into mud, and the life force that animated the body making it a living soul, returns to God. There is no evidence in scripture, anywhere, hinting or speaking either implicitly or explicitly, that the spirit that returns to God at death has a life of its own carrying the consciousness or personality of the former man. We must remember that as you also agreed , that God alone is immortal, but that He also is Spirit. God alone is an immortal Spirit. So unless you can show me that the spirit He gave to man is immortal in the same manner as He is, that is carrying the personality and memories and life of the former bearer, we must assume that the spirit is merely that which is revealed thus far...the breath of life that in conjunction with dust, forms the living soul. You see, throughout the church age, until just recently, the hope of the Christian was the resurrection. The hope of eternal life was not in going to heaven at death, but in the reuniting of the decayed body in the grave, with the spirit once again creating a living soul. We all know this takes place at no other time than at the second coming. It makes no sense to believe that spirits are in heaven having a mind, a face, fingers and toes, arms and legs, a head to think with, a mouth to praise with, eyes to see with....all these things are still in the grave along with the rest of the body. And scripture attests to this very thing. Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun...... .....10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Job 14:9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant. 10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? Psalms 88:10 ¶ Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. 11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? 12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth. Kings, prophets, and priests alike testified that in the grave, there is no life, not until the resurrection. Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Why must the redeemed seek for immortality or eternal life if it came naturally? It is clear from many scriptures that eternal life is a gift granted by grace to the one who accepts Christ as his Savior. Never is it even hinted at anywhere that eternal life is granted to the sinner. The second death is that same death described above...no consiousness...no life....complete oblivion. That death, that oblivion, is the eternal punishment , the eternal death from which there is no resurrection, no hope of the reunion of spirit and body, complete and utter separation from the only source of life, the Living God.

Your question, quote: How can there be eternal punishment without eternal consciousness? is the very reason why I began this discussion. The whole point of this thread was to prove that because the scripture clearly reveals that there is no eternal consciousness therefore there can be no eternal punishing. Eternal punishment, yes, but there can be no continuing torment unless those being tormented are immortal. And because there is no such thing as an immortal sinner, then your question is unanswerable. No, you didn't say death is punishment. I did. Why would I say that? Because Romans 6:23 and many other scriptures (including Genesis 2:17) say it.

I find it curious that everyone wholeheartedly agrees that the "Trinity" cannot be explained being a total mystery, but then attempt to explain it, even titling the conversation 'trinity explained'. Because the actual word 'trinity' is not to be found anywhere in scripture, I would suggest that is a fairly good reason why it cannot be explained, certainly not from scripture anyway. As for analogies, as everyone also agrees, there is no perfect analogy either...why? Maybe because the entire concept of trinity is a mere product of man's over-active imagination? Allow me if you will, to offer my explanation, not of a 'trinity' as proposed in the Nicean creed, but of the 'Godhead' of scripture, using only scripture as support, and no need of analogies. The result , for those who choose to believe the scriptures given, will not be shrouded in so much mystery, and our God will be revealed in a far more understandable and glorious way. It is really a matter of the weight of evidence. Compare the very few obscure texts used that vaguely point to a trinity, with the following. 1. There is no explicit or implicit statement in scripture indicating 3 co-equal, co-eternal beings. 2. Nowhere is there a text saying either God the Son, or God the Father. 3. John 1:1 clearly states that the Son is divine. He is divine be reason of His having been begotten of His Father Who is divine. The Son was to be worshiped by angels (Hebrews 1:6, and by men (Phil. 2:10). The Father of course was clearly identified as God our Father. (Rom 1:7; 1Cor.1:3; 2Cor.1:2;Eph.1:2;Phil.1:2;Col.1:2;etc) 4. There is no scripture in all the Bible instructing us to pray to, glorify, give thanks to, or exalt the Holy Spirit. There is no account anywhere of any being offering worship to the Holy Spirit by name. Christ came to teach man about the nature of God and the truth of God, yet not once taught us to worship the a third divine being. On the contrary, we see in Revelation 5 the following....13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 5. Jesus only prayed to His Father, never to another being by name, and instructed His disciples to do likewise. (Matt.6:10, John 15:16, 16:23) 6. We are to pray for the Holy Spirit, but never to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a gift. Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 7. The Holy Spirit is everywhere described as His Spirit, or the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Father, or the Spirit of Christ. Even on occasion My Spirit, suggesting that rather than being a third person, is in fact the actual omnipresence of the Father and/or of Christ. In Matthew 12:18, Luke 4:18, and Romans 8:11 the Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. In 1 Peter 1:10-11 the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ as the inspiration of the old testament prophets. 8. The Father is the Supreme Sovereign God. Jesus called His Father 'the only true God' John 17:3) 9. Paul said 1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him, and also Eph 4: 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 10. We were created by the Father, through the Son. (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph.3:9; Col. 1:12-16 Heb. 1:1-3.) Paul says 'For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ....(it is the Father Who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life).....of Whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named. The family is named after the Father. (Eph. 3:14,15) It is the name of the Father and the name of His city that will be upon the foreheads of those who enter the city. 11. God is everywhere referred to as He, His, or Him. Never they, theirs, or them. Revel. 14:7 Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 12. The Father is the God of Christ. (John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 11:3; 2 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 11:31; Eph. 1:3,17; Col. 1:3; Heb. 1:9; 1 Peter 1:3; Revel. 1:6). The following statement was made by Jesus a long while after His physical sojourn on earth....Revel. 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13. The kingdom of God is the kingdom of the Father...Christ was and always will be subordinate to the Father's authority. (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Matt. 26:29; 6:13) 14. We are reconciled to the Father through His Son. (Col. 1:19,20) 15. Christ came to reveal the character of the Father that men might be lead to worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth. (John 4:21-23) 16. Jesus was sent by His Father, never did He say He was sent by the Spirit. (John 5:23,30,36,37; 6:39,44,57; 8:16,29,42; 10:36; 12:49; 17:21; 20:21; 1John 4:14) 17. If one reads the Bible he/she can interchange the words God and Father with comfort...not so Holy Spirit or Jesus. 18. Proverbs 8:22-30 is a powerful indication that Jesus was begotten of the Father prior to His incarnation. 19. 1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...The Father communicates to man through Christ, and through Him only. If we think or say that God communicates to us through a third being, the Holy Spirit, then we contradict the only mediatorial role of Christ. 20. Revel. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.....salvation belongs to the Father and the Son, where is the trinity here? 21. Christians are keen, and rightly so, to describe their faith as a relationship. Two divine beings are in this relationship...1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.....1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus said "I and My Father are one". He prayed that we would be one with the Father and Son in the same manner. Nowhere are we told to be one with the Holy Spirit. (John 10:30; 17:11,21,22,23). 22. The Father forgives. (Matt. 6:12,14,15). Christ also forgives, because He has received all authority from His Father. See John 5:22. 23. Where is the trinity here.... John 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 24. Paul said this ten times in the NT..."Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." Where is the trinity here? 25. Coll. 2:2,3 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge....why no Holy Spirit mentioned? 26. Christ said that no-one, not even Himself, except the Father, knew when Jesus would return. Yet the Holy Spirit "searches all the deep things of God" 1 Cor 2:10. Why would the Holy Spirit not know? 27. 1 Thess. 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us His Holy Spirit. If, according to the trinity, the Father is God...the Son is God...and the Holy Spirit is God, then Who is the giver in this verse? Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. Confused? Yes it is confusing. But that confusion is cleared away if we recognise Gof as our heavenly Father, giving us His Spirit, His presence and power. There is much more I could add. But when one considers the weight of evidence, this should be a strong beginning showing that non-trinitarians' point of view is not pulled out of thin air or any vague mysterious verses that can be interpreted in many ways. Hardly the stuff of heresy as suggested in so many trinity apologetics. What I have shown above may not be the teaching of the church, but it is the teaching of scripture.

Like I said previously, anyone saying that death is not really death, but a form of consciousness is really nothing more than an acceptance of Satan's very first lie to Eve..."you shall not surely die". You are still arguing from a point of view which is based on tradition...even Greek pagan tradition. No man can undergo any form of ongoing punishing for eternity, for that would of necessity mean he/she is immortal...and again, the Bible is clear, adamant, and specific...only God is immortal.

Why? Jesus did say that the greater the wickedness that person would incur more 'stripes', but the end of that is death. The second death comes with no promise of resurrection. There is one resurrection for the wicked and two for the righteous. Two deaths for the wicked, and one for the righteous. In no sense is there any indication that there is any consciousness by those who are 'dead'. Either in heaven today, or in the grave tomorrow. Or at any time after that. Why do you think that it is abomination to talk to the dead? Because its impossible. They're dead! It is demons that channels speak to. Not dead people.

If you hold true to what the Bible actually teaches is the eternal punishment, which is death, (Romans 6:23) then eternal consciousness doesn't become an issue.

But conscious existence for all eternity is still, however one may word it, immortality. And it is a gift, but always, in every case, without exception, for the redeemed. Nor is there any way, without some grammatical gymnastics, any way to interpret or equate the word 'death' with life in torment. I am the resurrection and the Life.” In Christ is LIFE, original, unborrowed, underived. Only God is truly and in every sense immortal. We can lay claim to immortality, but only in so much as it is a gift. In Christ, it is an integral part of His nature. “He that hath the Son hath LIFE.” The divinity, and the eternalness or immortality of Christ is the believers assurance of eternity, and his hope of a resurrection. To be separated from Christ as clearly sinners are in death, separated from the only source of life. How then can they be conscious?

We have two choices. Either immortality comes to us as a gift from God, or God made us immortal from the beginning. I put it to you that immortality is a gift, a gift that comes to us on the day of the resurrection, at the second coming of Jesus. I could cite many scriptures to support this, but only one should suffice. 1 Cor. 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. Allow me to paraphrase the above texts, and reduce them to just the bolded portions. We shall all be changed at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and this mortal must put on immortality. Permit me to quote from a sermon by Amos Phelps: This doctrine (the immortality of the soul) can be traced through the muddy channels of a corrupted Christianity, a perverted Judaism, a pagan philosophy, a superstitious idolatry to the great instigator of mischief in the garden of Eden. The Protestants borrowed it from the Catholics, the Catholics from the Pharisees, the Pharisees from the pagans, and the pagans from the old serpent who first preached the doctrine amid the lowly bowels in paradise to an audience all too willing to hear and heed the new and fascinating theology…“Ye shall not surely die”. (Genesis 3:4) It is a strange infatuation that the vast majority of Christianity today teaches a doctrine, the immortality of the soul, based on no greater authority than that of the great deceiver.

Every reformer, as was mentioned in a previous post, from the 12th to the 18th century, from Wycliffe to Luther, from Calvin to Cranmer, and dozens in between, pointed their collective fingers at Rome and proclaimed the Roman papacy as the Antichrist of prophetic scripture. Were they right? Judging by today’s views, the reformation was a major mistake, and the reformers all religious radicals deceived and influenced by the times in which they lived. If they were right, then why do so few proclaim it today? If however they were wrong, then why don’t we all forsake the title “protestant” (who’s protesting today anyway?) and return to Rome as so many are today? From the time of Wycliffe (known as the morning star of the reformation) there were some who held the view that the papacy was the antichrist of prophetic scripture. A follower of John Wycliffe, one John Purvey, wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation, this being nearly 150 years before Luther. In 1528 Luther reprinted or republished this commentary, and inserted the following preface. “This preface, noble reader, you may understand was written by us for this reason–that we might make known to the world that we are not the first to interpret the Papacy as the kingdom of the Antichrist. For many years prior to us, so many and so great men (whose number is large, and their memory eternal) have attempted this so clearly and openly, and that with great spirit and force, that [those] who were driven by the fury of the papal tyranny into the farthest boundaries of the earth, and suffering the most atrocious tortures, nevertheless bravely and faithfully persisted in the confession of the truth.” In a statement from the Westminster Confession of Faith, ratified by the British parliament in 1647: “There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God.” (Phillip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom–With a History and Critical Notes, vol. 3, pp 658, 659) In his book, All Roads Lead to Rome, (pp205,206) Michael de Semlyen says: “Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer; in the seventeenth century, Bunyan, the translators of the King James Bible and the men who published the Westminster and Baptist Confessions of Faith; Sir Isaac Newton, John Wesley, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards; and more recently, Spurgeon, Bishop J. C. Ryle and Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones; these men among countless others, all saw the office of the Papacy as the antichrist.” The vast majority of these courageous men died at the hands of the very system they were denouncing, so there can be little surprise that the power that had most to gain by their silence was that power that destroyed them, and what writings they could find. There is however many examples available of such denunciations, particularly of those more eminent scholars like Newton, Calvin, Luther Wesley and Whitfield. Now, some quotes from some individual reformers. Martin Luther (1483-1546) (Lutheran): “Luther … proved, by the revelations of Daniel and St. John,by the epistles of St. Paul, St. Peter, and St. Jude, that the reign of Antichrist, predicted and described in the Bible, was the Papacy … And all the people did say, Amen! A holy terror seized their souls. It was Antichrist whom they beheld seated on the pontifical throne. This new idea, which derived greater strength from the prophetic descriptions launched forth by Luther into the midst of his contemporaries, inflicted the most terrible blow on Rome.” Taken from J. H. Merle D’Aubigne’s History of the Reformation of the Sixteen Century, book vi, chapter xii, p. 215. John Calvin (1509-1564) (Presbyterian): “Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt… I shall briefly show that (Paul’s words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy.” Taken from Institutes of the Christian Religion, by John Calvin. John Knox (1505-1572) (Scotch Presbyterian): John Knox sought to counteract “that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church.” As with Luther, he finally concluded that the Papacy was “the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks.” The Zurich Letters, by John Knox, pg. 199. Thomas Cranmer (1489-1556) (Anglican): “Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons.” (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7. John Wesley (1703-1791) (Methodist): Speaking of the Papacy, John Wesley wrote, “He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers… He it is…that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped…claiming the highest power, and highest honour…claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.” Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, by John Wesley, pg. 110. For what reasons did the reformers risk life and limb, (literally), in their damning accusations against the church which raised them? Nearly all the reformers were priests, with no intentions of forming new churches, but reforming the one they loved and held dear. Yet here they are accusing the very institution which educated and confirmed them in their faith, of being the dreaded Antichrist of prophetic scripture. Why? Was it revenge for being excommunicated? No, they were excommunicated for the most part because of the accusations. Was it the worst insult they could come up with because of a personal grudge? Hardly. Or perhaps, as this author believes and is currently expanding on in another thread, was it because they were serious students of the Bible and saw unmistakably the fulfilment of the many prophecies regarding Antichrist being played out perfectly before their very eyes? Are you aware that there is more detail concerning the character and nature of this entity than any other in the entire scriptures apart from Jesus Himself? Even Satan doesn’t get that much press, yet God has seen fit to describe the Antichrist with accuracy and detail no other earthly entity receives. In His love, God earnestly desires that every man, woman, and child on the planet makes no mistake regarding the identity of Antichrist. Antichrist poses such a threat that God has given us more than ample warning and information as to who or what this entity is. Yet today the majority of Christendom completely ignores the very heroes of our faith and the godly men and women of recent history who died as a result of their testimony, and look to the future for some mythical creature to fulfil their clairvoyant prognostications. Let me lay my card on the table, and I pray everyone reading this heeds the warning. While you look to the horizon for a battleship to appear with all guns blazing against Christianity and named “Antichrist”, look behind you. There is a ‘friend’ who kisses you as Judas kissed Christ and will run you over like a runaway train lest you kneel before her.

Why is it that everyone has a problem with this? The moment someone brings up the OT, everyone goes on the defensive...legalism....law done away with....ceremonial....Christians can do anything....we don't have to obey the OT laws....etc etc. Now I haven't read through the 40 odd pages of responses, so my apologies if someone has said this before. The answer to this, believe it or not, is found in something the apostle John said in one of his letters. 1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. So what has this got to do with food? It is actually quite simple. You see, most people, the moment anyone brings up "law", especially diet or Sabbath etc, immediately think 'Oh, he is out to get us. This is bondage. He is trying to take away our pleasures. " Read again that verse from John. What does it say? God is love! That means that there is nothing, ever, that God has done, or could possibly do, that is not motivated by love. You get that? LOVE!!! So all those laws and instructions on how to relate to Him and each other, ad yes, how to look after ourselves, are for our good! They are not negative laws, but positive instructions on what is best for us. Some, because Jesus is the antitype of much of the types and symbols of the OT, we no longer need to observe, but we observe 'Him' instead. As for pork, do you really think God called i unclean because of so,e ceremonial issue or because He was wanting to be arbitrary without any good reason? He made us. He is the manufacturer. And the laws and precepts centering on diet are the manufacturers instructions as to how to look after and maintain this machine of ours to its greatest and most efficient potential. You start feeding it with stuff that is not recommended by the Manufacturer, you are ging to have to answer to Him because you will have to explain why your life was shorter and less effective that it was designed to be. One final point. No where in the Bible will you ever find the expression unclean food. No where. Unclean animals, yes. Why? Because unclean animals were never, and can never, be classified as "food". They were stipulated as unclean because they are not fit for human consumption. Period.

Of course they do...at the second coming. Then the question needs to be asked...who are the heirs? Those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book correct? Anyone else?

You are ascribing to created man an attribute that belongs only to God. 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality......

Have you considered that the reason you cannot answer such questions is because the basic premise you are operating on...eternal torment...is error? Those questions, every one of them, find answers in the Biblical truth that sinners are indeed tormented for a time that God sees fit to satisfy justice, but eventually cease to exist.

We are presently living in a time of intense war and strife. The past 100 years has seen this planet turned into one vast graveyard as a direct result of war, and compounding disasters in every land and continent. Matthew 24:6 and 7 are being played out before our very eyes. And not only nations are at war, but we also witness sectarian violence, terrorism, gang warfare in our local suburbs, and family violence in our homes. So poignant are the words of Jesus when He described the last days as being as the days of Noah,a time when “the earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence” Genesis 6:11. But Matthew also reveals to us a subtle change. After describing a period of war and natural disasters, Jesus tells us that these are just the beginning of sorrows, with the real heavy stuff beginning in verse 9 where He tells us that Christians will be hated of all nations for His name’s sake. The nations, after being at each others throats for millennia, finally find something that unites them. A hatred for God’s people. The reason for this, I believe is clear. Encouraged by their Luciferian rulers, they blame the church for all the troubles that have come upon them. In Luke, Jesus said that the nations would be perplexed at the troubles. They have no solutions, no answers. But why blame the church? Because they have turned to religion as a last resort to solve their problems. Remember the days and weeks following 9/11? Every man, woman, and their pet poodle was in church... out of a sense of surrender, repentance, or love toward their Creator? Maybe but I would suggest more simply out of a sense of self preservation. Why would I say such a terrible thing? Because within a month or two when the hubbub died down the churches began to empty. People realized it wasn't world war 3 the government promised to look after them and chase away all their enemies....they felt safe again. So in the coming crisis people are going to be going back to church. Once again they will find solace and security in 'religion'. But the troubles won't stop...in fact they will increase. Revelation informs us in chapter 13 that the whole world will worship the beast and its image. Believing it is the will of God and to appease who it believes is an angry God pouring out His last day judgments upon mankind, it is the people themselves who demand that an image be established...an image to the first beast...a union of church and state similar to the medieval papacy, and that the only way to avert annihilation is to destroy the only remaining people who refuse to bow their knee to his authority. This ‘remnant’ the scriptures inform us are they “who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus”. (Revelation 12:17; 14:12) So how could such a scenario come about, especially in a nation like the United States which has religious freedom enshrined within its constitution? If you have been following the current presidential race in the States perhaps you heard the promise made by the republican candidate Donald Trump that if elected, he would "give the church power". As a member of a minority Christian group, this concerns me a great deal, even though I write from New Zealand, for prophecy is clear that what begins with the second beast, grows to a global threat against any who would dissent from the majority opinion. Power, in the hands of the church, historically has never been a good thing. So if Trump has his way, and the church at some time in the future has such influence to enact religious decrees and laws through the state legislative arm, then religious freedom ceases. Religious freedom in America will then be reduced to something one may practice only by permission. Toleration certainly is far better than intoleration, for I would far rather be tolerated in my religious practice than be bundled off to the nearest gallows or bonfire for choosing to worship God in a manner different than what the government deems ‘appropriate’. But is that what religious freedom in America is? Toleration? If I should come to America and take up residence there, if I should practice my religion, being a member of a minority faith, would I be merely tolerated? Or would I truly be free as your founding fathers intended I should be? You see, to be tolerated is not the same as being free. Thomas Jefferson said, “God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion.” If religion is between man and God, and not between man and the state, then the state (nor the people who live in the state) has no more right to ‘tolerate’ my religion than I have the right to ‘tolerate’ jogging in Central Park. The Act of Toleration in Britain permitted religious freedom for everyone, except Jews, Catholics, and Unitarians. The founding fathers of your great nation wanted something better. Having their forefathers live through what amounted to ‘toleration’ during the dark ages in both Europe and Britain, they desired true freedom. Your Bill of Rights states, “That religion, or the duty we owe our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, being under the direction of reason and conviction only, not of violence or compulsion, all men are equally entitled to the full and free exercise of it according to the dictates of conscience.” Intolerance, as practiced in the former Soviet Union, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, and in Europe under the medieval papacy, assumed the right of the state or the church, or a combination of both,to withhold the right of conscience. Toleration, as seems a distinct possibility if the evangelical arm of Christendom gains the reign of government, assumes the right of the state to grant the right of conscience. The rights of religious minorities in this world, regardless of recent history and hurt feelings, are just that, rights. For “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights” and surely, among those “unalienable rights” is the the right to “full and free exercise of it (religion) according to the dictates of conscience”. And not only the right to practice said religion, but the right not to practice religion, of any sort. This is religious freedom. And it goes way beyond what is constitutional and what isn’t, it is who we are as created beings. And if we should demand that freedom for ourselves, so ought we demand it for everyone else. The states role is not in defining that freedom, nor is it in tolerating it, but solely in protecting it. And the moment the state, or the people, starts down the road of intolerance or tolerance, then religious freedom in its purest form, will get inundated in a tsunami of majority opinion. According to Revelation 13, Babylon the Great or Antichrist, will influence the state to introduce legislation that enforces a particular brand of worship. That is what Revelation 13 is all about. Worship. Worship and deception. And this religion I speak of is not a secular/humanist type of religion nor is it Islam, nor is it any other of the worlds main religious branches. The religion of the Antichrist, Babylon the Great, is a form of apostate Christianity. And the entire world is deceived. Jesus warns us time and time again of false prophets, false Christs. That the Christian's greatest enemy is from within the church,not without. Mohamed is not a false prophet. He is a true prophet of a false religion. False prophets are false prophets of the true religion. And the greatest false prophet of them all is soon to come, speaking as a dragon and causing “all both great and small to receive a mark”. This false prophet is a beast. A nation. A nation that has horns like a lamb’s, innocent and Christ-like, but speaks (through its legislation) as a dragon. To tolerate something, is to put up with that which at some future time you may prevent or prohibit. Professor Robert Alley in his book “The Despotism of Toleration” writes… “evidence is persuasive that whenever persons advocate some form of a Christian state or argue for the messianic role of the United States as God’s chosen nation, there is a corollary, the introduction of toleration as a principle. And while the implementation may be benign in the beginning, the departure of Madison’s principle of religious freedom as a natural right is replaced with the ‘despotism’ of toleration”. However distasteful it may seem, however awkward it may feel, all Christians in America should be demanding that Trump rescind without reservation his promise to empower the church, and only then would they vote for him. Abraham Lincoln once said: “Familiarize yourself with the chains of bondage, (or allow the church to use the state as a vehicle for Christianizing America) and you prepare your own limbs to wear them. Accustomed to trample upon the rights of others, you have lost the genius of your own independence, and become fit subjects of the first cunning tyrant who rises among you.” When the dragon makes war with the woman and the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus; when ye shall be hated of all nations for Jesus’ names sake; and when he ( the false prophet) cause all both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or forehead , whose side will you be on? Do you truly agree with and support the concept of true religious freedom as an unalienable right, or do you believe certain minority religions are only to be tolerated if certain conditions or agreements met? The mark of the beast is not a code or tattoo or chip giving people the right to buy and sell. That is not what Revelation 13 is all about. The mark is a form of false worship, and those who don’t submit are forbidden to buy or sell as an inducement to comply. The death sentence will be the final inducement. Upholding true religious liberty, regardless the cost and pain or embarrassment this may cause, is the first step in resisting Babylon the Great. And it starts today. Islam is not the real enemy. Vladimir Putin is not the enemy. Zionism is not the enemy. Even the Banking gangsters are not the enemy. The real enemy is to be found within our own churches. The whole world will not be deceived by a future evil fascist dictator riding across the horizon with guns blazing and aimed at all things Christian, but the whole word will be deceived by a form of apostate counterfeit Christianity, a counterfeit so close to the real, that only by the scriptures can the differences be discerned. And freedom to make that choice must be protected, in whatever country we live in. It is our unalienable right, and everyone else’s also.

The nation of Israel is an unethically constituted land stolen form its legal occupants through war, terrorism, blackmail and extortion and political lies and deceit by the very same power brokers who are engendering the NWO through the Vatican and the UN, the Rothschilds and the corrupt Zionists. Even genuine religious Jews who follow Judaism (not the false Talmudic rabbis) believe the occupation of Palestine is illegal, and against God. Israel is not 'God's people". Not since their house was left to them desolate, and the vineyard given to others "who would bring forth the fruits thereof". The belief that Israel is the center of Bible prophecy is one of the deceptions of the last days. It takes your eyes off the real action and center of interest...Rome, London, and Washington. Bible prophecy is not about a literal Israel and a war against a secular nation no longer following God. The future war, the one Revelation 12 speaks about when Satan "makes war with the remnant of her seed and those who keep the commandments and the faith of Jesus" is a war against the church. It is a global, not a middle eastern affair, and you, because of the great deception throughout Christendom, may end up taking sides against your own brothers and sisters and you wont even realize it.

Our Lord and Savior did not give us all these warnings and prophecies that we should stay ignorant of what is going on...He even said that if we observe and keep our eyes open we shall not be surprised as the unbelievers are...for us who see and recognize the signs, He will not come as a thief. As for the answer to my opening question...its in the last line....close.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled:for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: There is a great escalation in verse 7 from the previous verse where war was simply rumour and hearsay. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries the world was full of confidence and great expectation of a coming millennium of peace and safety brought about by very recent remarkable advances in scientific knowledge in industry and medicine. Christianity was held dear by the vast majority of those living in the world, before communism took over in Russia, before the Chinese shut out the missionaries from the west, before Japan turned away the church from their doors. And by far the vast majority of Christians believed in a soon coming millennium to be brought about by the efforts of man himself. Most saw the future with an eagerness and expectation of God’s kingdom being established in their lifetime… Bible Societies were springing up all over the world, missionaries were entering places never before thought possible; stories were coming from people like Taylor in China, Livingstone in Africa. These stories were hugely popular and helped imbue a great missionary zeal throughout the Christian world. Until WW1. This dashed hopes and shocked many. Any remaining hope was expunged by the great depression and WW2. Instead of society improving into a godly utopia, the world crashed into chaos. The 20th century turned into a bloodbath. The planet began to turn itself into one vast war cemetery. More wars and war related deaths than the previous 6000 years of man’s history put together. All in just 100 years. Not only 2 world wars, but also Vietnam, Rwanda, Ethiopia, Chechnya, Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia, Serbia, numerous Central American countries, Afghanistan, Palestine, Syria, and on and on and on. And it hasn’t stopped. and there shall be famines, War is evil and devastating both on man and beast. Add to that famine , and things escalate exponentially. Hunger , in any sense of the word, is not good. During wartime, it is infinitely worse. and pestilences, War and famine is bad enough, but add disease and it gets ten times worse. and earthquakes, in divers places. And then we have those hungry, diseased war-torn people without anywhere to live because their homes are destroyed and once again you see an escalation in these sorrows,and these disasters can be natural, or man-made as a result of the wars, and there is ample evidence to assume that almost without exception, all wars and terrorist acts are premediated and controlled conflicts to bring about a desired result, and yet 8 All these are the (Only the) beginning of sorrows. However, notice something else about the previous scenario. At first we see nations and kingdoms divided. They are at war with one another, there is strife among the nations of the world, there is no accord, no peace, and no agreement.Yet just 2 verses after reading the “nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom,” we read 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. Who is “they”? Well surely it must be the nations which were not long before fighting one another. And here we see them united against God’s people!! 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And not only do the nations hate God’s people, but God’s people are being offended and turning each other over to the authorities. (Jesus warned us elsewhere of the time when our enemies will be those of our own household, and that there will come a time when those who kill us will think they are serving God.) Who are these who get offended? See Matthew 13:21 Those who get offended are fellow Christians who do not endure the coming persecution of the nations. All this however leads me to the following question. What was it that changed the mindset of the divided nations to make them unite? What was it that motivated the nations to give up their hatred against one another, and turn it toward God’s redeemed ? Take another look at the above verses. Verse 7 describes war. Verse 9 describes the united front against the church. So what happened in between those two verses? The natural disasters!!! It is the natural disasters that bring the nations together. What has happened in recent history? After WW1 the league of nations was formed. It failed. After WW2 the Untied Nations was formed. It also has been a failure, and continues to be. After 9/11 the president of the US called upon all the nations of the world to unite against terrorism. We have seen unprecedented international support following hurricane Katrina, the Asian Tsunami last year, the Haiti earthquake this year, and just this week as at October 2010, another major earthquake in Indonesia. We have seen just what the prophecy portrayed, a massive escalation in natural disasters. And we also see more and more the world uniting to help the victims and repair the damage. After the economic crash 2 years ago we saw the same. Calls for a “New World Order” are coming now thick and fast, from political leaders the world over, and even the pope. In fact the pope has gone on record saying that he was the only person with the standing and moral integrity to lead this NWO. Many leading politicians of the world agree with this, and have been queuing up outside the Vatican front door to show their support in droves. And the latest is climate change. In Copenhagen we saw for the first time the words “One world government” in an international treaty. One world government has leaped confidently from the conspiracy basket to current affairs. Note the following quote from the newly elected leader of the EU. In accepting his appointment as the first president of the European Union, Belgian Prime Minister Herman Van Rompuy announced that “global governance” is the only way to address the crises that beset the planet. In a Christmas speech of 2005 Pope Benedict first spoke these now favored global warming scare tactics of pandemics, economic situation, and terrorism as good reasons to “let the child of Bethlehem take you by the hand” into a much needed global government that will fix all these problems. Today, the terms “global government”, “one world government”, “new world order” and similar expressions are so common place coming from the lips of world leaders, that the media has stopped reporting on it. Note the following words of Jesus… Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; With perplexity. This means that the nations are faced with such an insurmountable set of problems that they see no way out. So they unite in an attempt to solve the crisis. And we see that happening before our very eyes. But why attack the church? Because they are united not only politically, but also in a global counterfeit Christian system of religion ( Babylon the Great). They not only establish political laws, but also religious. They establish , as can be read in Rev 13, laws that pertain to worship, but because the disasters continue, against their most cherished hopes, the crisis only deepens, and they end up blaming those who have not bowed themselves to the NWO. … God’s people. The time is right upon us. Even at the doors. Look up, for our redemption draweth nigh