brakelite

I agree that the Roman church is a different kettle of fish to the pagan empire that preceded it, but Biblically, and prophetically, there was enough principle and philosophical agreement between the two (originating in fact from Babylon and passed down through each subsequent empire) to be classified as a continuation. "The Two Babylons" by Hislop is a remarkable study of this. As for the horn of Daniel 8 being Antiochus, I cannot agree with this, however will deal with that in detail a little later on. No argument however that there were some parallels. As for me underestimating others knowledge, I apologize if I gave that impression. I am sure there are many with far greater knowledge and understanding in many aspects of Biblical knowledge than I could ever hope for. I think later in the study you may realize where I am coming from and why the perspective on this particular subject I am revealing is not as well appreciated as perhaps it should be, hence the reason why so few share that perspective. That may sound arrogant, as if only I know the "truth", but I make no apologies for that. If I didn't believe what I present is truth, trust me, I wouldn't be presenting it.

Is God really finished if eternal torment is true? Is it not because of God's will and power that such sufferers continue to live and feel the agony of their torment? Would it not be because they are still under the ongoing influence of God's life giving power that they continue to live? If hell, as it is said, is separation from God, who it must be admitted is the only source of life, how can anyone live if separated from that source? Sorry, but there are far too many inconsistencies in the eternal torment paradigm to be so wholly accepted as Biblical truth. And in your second paragraph you are assuming that the spirit of man is a living entity apart from the body. If that were the case then it must surely have been before it entered the body...pre-existence? That leaves scope for a belief in reincarnation and all sorts of permutations...oh, that is what we have isn't it.

You hit the nail on the head....people have read the given texts over and over again....just like the ones I have offered throughout this thread...and still do not believe what they are reading! Perhaps you could explain this phenomenon? How is it that the Bible clearly says .... a. That only God is immortal....1 Timothy 6:15,16 b. That immortality is a gift only for the redeemed....Timothy 1:9,10 c. But so many don't believe the above, but claim immortality for everyone, even sinners? How do you explain this?

Hi. In this thread I would like to present a series of articles detailing comprehensive descriptions of the little horn that grew from the 4th beast of the vision of Daniel in Daniel 7. While you are welcome to comment, I would rather not get bogged down too much in discussion or debate....this thread is mainly to offer a perspective and understanding of prophecy very few, if any, of you may have considered....and that is all I ask of you....to give it your most serious consideration, and the possible consequences if what I am presenting to you if true. So, with prayers for God's blessing on your reading, here goes. The first characteristic is 1) The little horn arises from the fourth beast (Daniel 7:8). The fourth beast represents Rome, the little horn power grows out of Rome, therefore the little horn must be a Roman power. Allow me at this juncture to let you in on a little secret to understanding the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. The prophecies of both books are incredibly revealing. They are intricately detailed, providing specific information and points of character and events regarding the history of nations, beginning from Daniels time and unfolding throughout history and progressing throughout all generations right down to the close of time and the second coming. And the Antichrist is a prominent feature throughout. This is not an accident. God desires that we are thoroughly informed of the nature and character of the Antichrist. Let us take heed. I will begin with Daniel 2. All of Daniels visions are built on the one previous. Each one is a magnification, or an enlargement of the one before. And even the composite beast of Revelation 13 is merely a more mature and advanced description of those empires revealed in Daniel 2. The vision of Nebuchadnezzar and Daniels explanation regarding the statue forms the foundation for all the subsequent visions. Once we establish the foundation, we must take care that our understanding of later visions are built on that foundation. Our conclusions and interpretations must not deviate nor contradict or we shall soon lose our way, and our understanding become darkened. Daniel 2:31 ¶ Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image’s head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. We have here a statue made of 5 different components. Gold, silver, bronze, iron, and a mixture of iron and clay. This statue was then completely destroyed by a rock ‘made without hands’, which became a mountain which filled the whole earth.No trace was found of the former materials. Nebuchadnezzar was so convicted by the Holy Spirit, he demanded his wise men (soothsayers and occultists for the most part) to give him the interpretation.Perhaps knowing their duplicity, he demanded they give him the dream also; whether Nebuchadnezzar had indeed forgotten the dream, or was testing them, I don’t know.Daniel was finally given the opportunity to give the interpretation. 36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain. Four empires, beginning with the current administration, Babylon, who will dominate earth’s history. Each one closely followed by the next, the final one being changed and weakened although it lasts right up to the end. Note that there are no gaps, no times between in which there is no empire ruling. Throughout history it is possible to see the influences and lasting impressions that have been brought to even the present generation by these empires.History has thus far without equivocation confirmed the veracity of this vision. Babylon is the only kingdom at that stage named, “thou art this head of gold”. One very important thing we must take note of. When the rock destroys the statue,” it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold“. All the components are still there at the end!!! Even though the empires are long gone, there remains at the end a vestige, a remnant, a trace of the original within the final entity that is destroyed. This is important, and I will discuss this important point a little later. Now remember, the legs were of iron, but the feet were of iron and clay. What does the clay represent? We know the iron represents pagan Rome. In fact, throughout history Rome has been recognised as the ‘Iron Kingdom’ or Empire. But what of the clay that is in union with the iron, but unable to cleave to one another? The Bible is its own best expositor, so we shall go to the word of God to find our answer. Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. So according to the above evidence, we see that clay represents God’s people, or His church. Therefore we can justifiably conclude that the feet of the image in Daniel 2, made of iron and clay, is a union of church and state. We see also in the text of Daniel 2 that the clay is miry clay. Miry clay is unworkable. It cannot be shaped by the potter into anything useful; it is fit only to be discarded. It may have begun its life as suitable clay for the fashioning of the potter, but became miry. This is therefore signifying the apostasy Paul spoke of that would take place after he had gone and before Christ comes. Thus it is an apostate church in union with the Roman power. Apostasy as most would appreciate is a falling away from grace, a state where previously the church was in a right relationship with God, but is now separated, the word apostasy in the Greek originally suggesting divorce. Understandable then when we later see the rock of Christ destroying the image, including the iron /clay union. So according to Daniel 2, there is a union of church and state, and this union is Roman, and continues to be Roman, without pause or break, from the time of paganism to the present day and on until the second coming. However, because the scripture says 'they shall not cleave one to another, just as iron does not cleave to clay', we must believe that this union, although declared as such, is unnatural, forced, artificial, and can only be of a very temporary nature, as history I believe will bear out. There is only one viable candidate that answers to the description. There is only one church power that grew out of Rome, there is only one church/state union that grew out of the Roman Empire, and continues to the present time. And that is the Roman Catholic Church. The religion of Rome was adopted by the church. It is well known that Constantine the Great brought all sorts of pagan practices into the church. This is recognised by both secular and church historians. In fact, the name “Supreme Pontiff” (Pontifex Maximus) was used by the pagan Roman emperors. After the Edict of Milan was signed in the year 312 A. D., Christians were restored as bona fide citizens of the Roman empire. Constantine, emperor of the Roman empire, was the architect of this Edict of Milan. Regarding Constantine,Dave Hunt remarks: “A brilliant military commander, Constantine also understood that there could be no political stability without religious unity. Yet to accomplish that feat would require a union between paganism and Christianity. How could it be accomplished? The Empire needed an ecumenical religion that would appeal to every citizen in a multi-cultural society. Giving Christianity official status was not enough to bring internal peace to the Empire: Christianity had to undergo a transformation so that pagans could ‘convert’ without giving up their old beliefs and rituals. Constantine himself exemplified this expediency. He adopted Christ as the new god that had given him victory in the crucial battle at Milvian Bridge in 312 A. D., and brought him into Rome as its conqueror. Yet, as Caesar, he continued to function as the Pontifex Maximus of the Empire’s pagan priesthood, known as the Pontifical College. . . As a ‘Christian’ Emperor, he automatically became the de facto civil head of the Christian church and seduced her with promises of power. Thus began the destruction of Christianity and the process that created Roman Catholicism as it is today.” (Dave Hunt, Global Peace, pp. 106-107) . “It was ‘Christianity’, in fact, which gave the Empire a unity and continuity that held it together culturally and religiously. When the Empire later disintegrated politically under the onslaught of the Barbarians, it was held together religiously by the all-pervasive presence of the Roman Catholic Church with its ingenious ecumenical blend of paganism and Christianity still headquartered in Rome.” (Dave Hunt, Global Peace, p.110). John Henry Cardinal Newman makes this admission: “We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees, incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness, holy water; asylums; holy days and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments; the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleisen, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the church. (Henry Cardinal Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, p. 373). Philip Schaff, one of the greatest church historians ever to wield a pen, wrote the following: “But the elevation of Christianity as the religion of the state presents also an opposite aspect to our contemplation. It involved great risk of degeneracy to the church. The Roman state, with its laws, institutions, and usages, was still deeply rooted in heathenism, and could not be transformed by a magical stroke. The christianizing of the state amounted therefore in great measure to a paganizing and secularizing of the church. The world overcame the church, as much as the church overcame the world, and the temporal gain of Christianity was in many respects cancelled by spiritual loss. The mass of the Roman empire was baptized only with water, not with the Spirit of the gospel, and it smuggled heathen manners and practices into the sanctuary under a new name. The very combination of the cross with the military ensign by Constantine was the most doubtful omen, portending an unhappy mixture of the temporal and the spiritual powers.” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, vol. 3, p. 93). “St. Thomas. . . says that the Roman Empire has not ceased, but is changed from the temporal into the spiritual. . . It was, then, the Apostolic Church, which, spreading throughout the nations, already combined together by the power of the heathen empire of Rome, quickened them with a new life. . . the temporal power in the old heathen empire of Rome, and the spiritual power in the supernatural kingdom of God met together. . . these two powers were blended and fused together; they became one authority, the emperor ruling from his throne within the sphere of his earthly jurisdiction, and the Supreme Pontiff ruling likewise from a throne of a higher sovereignty over the nations. . . the material power which once reigned in Rome [was] consecrated and sanctified by the investiture of the Vicar of Jesus Christ with temporal sovereignty over the city where he dwelt. And now for these twelve hundred years the peace, the perpetuity and faithfulness of the Christian civilization of Europe, has been owing solely in its principle to this consecration of the power and authority of the great empire of Rome, taken up of old, perpetuated, preserved, as I have said, by the salt which had been sprinkled from heaven, and continued in the person of the Supreme Pontiff, and in that order of Christian civilization of which he has been the creator.” (Cardinal Manning, The Temporal Power of the Vicar of Jesus Christ, pp. 123-128). Notice the following amazing declaration by Cardinal Manning: “Now the abandonment of Rome was the liberation of the pontiffs. Whatsoever claims to obedience the emperors may have made, and whatsoever compliance the Pontiff may have yielded, the whole previous relation, anomalous, and annulled again and again by the vices and outrages of the emperors, was finally dissolved by a higher power. The providence of God permitted a succession of irruptions, Gothic, Lombard, and Hungarian, to desolate Italy, and to efface from it every remnant of the empire [remember this fact of history. Protestant futurists rewrite history and deny that the Roman Empire was ever divided]. The pontiffs found themselves alone, the sole fountains of order, peace, law, and safety. And from the hour of this providential liberation, when, by a divine intervention, the chains fell off from the hands of the successor of St. Peter, as once before from his own, no sovereign has ever reigned in Rome except the Vicar of Jesus Christ.” (Henry Edward Manning, The Temporal Power of The Vicar of Jesus Christ, Preface, pp. xxviii, xxix. London: Burns and Lambert, 1862). This might well be the time to speak of the mysterious “restrainer” that the Apostle Paul refers to in II Thessalonians 2. The early church Fathers were practically unanimous in the opinion that the “restrainer” was a reference to the Roman empire in general and the emperors in particular. Paul indicates that the Church at Thessalonica knew who the restrainer was. And yet Paul speaks in veiled language. And why would this be? Simply because Paul could not speak openly about the empire which was governing in his day. If he had publicly stated that the Roman empire was going to be taken out of the way, the emperors would have had grounds to accuse Paul of sedition. So Paul had to be cautious in his comments. If the restrainer was the Holy Spirit, as many futurists believe, then why was Paul so cautious? It is clear that Paul could not define the “restrainer” openly. It was not necessary to do so because the Thessalonians knew what he was talking about. So without doubt the Roman Catholic church rose out of Rome, inherited much of the pagan religion of Rome, and is in fact a mere continuation of the Roman Empire, only in another form. A further affirmation of this is in Daniel 8:9,10 which horn represents the whole Roman epoch both pagan and papal, and in which we see a change in direction. Whereas at first its conquests are on a horizontal plane, in verse 11 it changes direction and focus and adopts a vertical focus, toward heaven. Characteristic 2 to follow in a few days....enough time perhaps for ya'll to chew on this.

That really is just opinion...it is not what scripture actually says...please, to promote and teach any concept of faith or doctrine, you need to supply a "thus saith the Lord" in support. Otherwise, it is but human philosophy...and man's reasoning and assumptions are never to be the basis for any doctrine. The reality is in fact the opposite...scripture teaches something quite in contrast with what you offer above.... Eccl. 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. You see, no human being is immortal. How do I know this? Because the Bible says that only God is immortal. And here's the proof.... “King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen” (1 Timothy 6:15, 16) Now for anyone to refute that by saying that man's body is mortal, but his spirit or soul is immortal, must realize that God is Spirit. So when scripture says that only God is immortal, it is speaking of God who is Spirit...God is the only immortal Spirit. Not man! Immortality is given as a gift...when is that? At the second coming, see 1 Corinthians 15. And note the number of times when Jesus stresses that this event takes place... Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. And note, Jesus doesn't correct Martha here.... Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. The truth is that no sinner lives forever...because no sinner is given the gift of immortality. In fact, God even took steps to assure that would not happen...and He hasn't changed His mind. Genesis 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. The thing God hates above everything else, is sin. Why? Because it separates man from God, and brings sorrow, pain, and suffering to everything it touches. It is patently ludicrous to believe that a holy righteous God would choose to immortalize sin and be a constant reminder of man's folly.

No-one has yet proved from scripture that sinners have immortality, that they may live forever being tormented. Please produce the scripture that explicitly declares that sinners are given the gift of immortal life. After all, there are many scriptures that promise immortality to the redeemed, yet not one for the wicked? Why is that? Add to that the many scriptures that explicitly teach that sinners die....why is that??? Do none of you detect any discrepancy here?

I agree with you re the eternality of both the fire and the punishment. My point is twofold however. 1. The fire, which we both agree in the supernatural does not consume, is in fact the very presence of God. It is that presence that enables life. Yet we would also both agree that the lake of fire comes FROM God, thus it is devoid of His pesence, devoid of His sutaining power of life, therefore whoever comes into contact with this fire, like the sinning Israelites were warned to stay away from the MT Sinai, will consume them in that context. 2. The eternal nature of the punishment, as revealed in that text of Matthews, refers to punishment, not punishing. The eternality of the punishment, that is the death of the sinner/soul/person, is eternal in the sense that it is permanent. There can be no resurrection. Our physical death is not permanent, therefore can not be described as everlasting, for the very reason that we shall be woken up...even the wicked...but the second death for the wicked, that is another story. Their second death is permanent.

Where in that parable is there any suggestion that Lazarus has eternal life? Because that is my question. What evidence is there in scripture that a sinner has eternal life? I don't know what Bible you use, but mine says in Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death. And there is a text in Ezekiel that states 'the soul that sinneth, it shall die'. If you are going to take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as an example of literal Biblical teaching, then after the resurrection we must all go to Abraham's bosom, from which place we will all be able to see the wicked suffer. As one of the presumed pleasures of paradise I think I'll skip that as something to look forward to. I am not contending that sinners don't suffer. Jesus made it extremely plain that the destiny of the wicked was something to avoided, even at the cost of an arm or an eye. What I am questioning is the claim that the wicked receive the gift of immortality along with the righteous. I have never seen, nor do I expect anyone to provide it, evidence that this is so. When Adam and Eve were booted from the garden, an angel was placed at the gate, 'to guard the way to the tree of life'. Why? In God's own words, "In case a sinner eat of the tree of life and live forever. God's purposes have never, I repeat NEVER, been to immortalize sin, or the sinner. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, so that the future of mankind, and the future security of the entire universe and kingdom of God, would be assured.

No, not so self-explanatory. See and compare Jonah 1:17 and 2:6, also Deuteronomy 23:3. One thing which you must face in your contention that God torments sinners into eternity, is the fact that if true, then sinners must have immortal life. Prove to me that, then I will begin to entertain the idea of eternal torment.

In light of the forest fire thata raging in the precious Big Sur Californian redwood forest, I thought it appropriate to post this message from a number of years ago... In 1941 the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour in Hawaii. In the spring of the following year a Japanese submarine surfaced off the coast of California and lobbed a number of shells into an oil field near Santa Barbara and immediately adjacent to the Los Padres national forest. Very shortly thereafter, on the back of public concern for the integrity of their forests and national fervour in the wake of that attack upon their homeland, there began a public service advertising campaign promoting fire safety in wilderness areas. Walt Disney studios loaned the new cartoon character “Bambi” and the campaign took off. This loan arrangement however was for only one year, so the promoters had to find a new mascot. They settled on a black bear, and named him “Smokey”. This was in 1944, and the series still runs today. Smokey Bear is so ingrained into the American psyche, 95% of people can recite the motto “Only you can prevent forest fires” with very little prompting. Run in conjunction with this campaign was a United States Forest Service (USFS) policy which detailed how the forest service would use whatever resources, technology and manpower available to extinguish any and all wild-fires as quickly and as efficiently as possible. This was the ‘green’ version of zero tolerance on crime. Worldwide interest in the last several decades on all matters ecological and the determination to conserve resources and potentially ‘save the planet’, ensured that the American Federal government along with the state governments provide all resources, money, support and backing that was required to implement that policy. The result of all this was that the USFS became very very good at putting out fires. Prior to the year 2000 95% of all wild-fires were extinguished before they had affected 300 acres. 4% of the remainder were dealt with within certain allowable limits and deemed acceptable. The USFS had became a highly skilled and professional organisation. However, what appeared on the surface to be an excellent statistical record in the year 2000, the remaining 1% developed into a major problem. From the year 2000 on there were a number of major fires throughout the United States and the expression ‘mega-fire’ became a household term even in my own country, New Zealand. Permit me to provide some numbers. 2000 Arizona 47,650 acres. May 5-25 Montana/Idaho 950,000 /1.3 million acres June-October 2002 Colorado 137,760 acres June 8-July 18 New Mexico 92,522 acres June 2-June 19 Arizona 468,638 acres June 18-July 2 Oregon 499,965 acres July 13-Sept. 5 California 150,969 acres July 21- Aug 28 2003 California 739,596 acres Oct. 21-Nov 10 2004 Alaska 6,300,000 acres June-November!!!!! Those fires in 2002 were of special interest to me as they were headline news in our country for months. Note that all those fires were raging at the same time, and affecting a total of over a million acres. Smaller fires however were also sprouting at that time all over the country, from Florida all across the Midwest and beyond, as well as those places mentioned above. TV news showed black barren landscapes and exhausted fire-fighters covered in black ash, many injured and burnt. Because fire-fighters from the Pacific NW had travelled to the more southern mid-west states to assist, when the full extent of the fires in Oregon and Nth. California became known, everyone realised they were desperately short of manpower, and Australia, Canada and New Zealand sent contingents of our own forest service personnel to assist. When rain finally accomplished what man could not, questions were being asked of the USFS as to why and how such a catastrophe could take place despite all the precautions and resources that had been delegated to avoid that very thing from happening. In an interview on TV news here, a reporter asked that very question, and a FS spokesman gave a very honest and succinct answer, which being an ex forest service employee myself, I immediately understood. The answer was: “Because we’ve been too good at putting fires out in the past.” You see, previously fires were so quickly extinguished by the ever vigilant FS the unburnt fuel built up on the forest floor to such an extent and over such a long period of time that it had become so exceedingly dangerous to the point where these mega fires were inevitable. Allowing so-called ‘cold’ fires to clear away the debris within controlled confines would have given nature the opportunity it needed to look after itself. But suppressing even the smallest fires at whatever cost simply reserved the fuel for much greater so called ‘hot’ fires later. Natural fire in afforested areas is natures way of clearing the forest of rubbish thus preserving the health and enhancing the quality and life of the forest. Psalm 1: 1 -3¶ Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. Psalm 92: 12-15 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon. Those that be planted in the house of the LORD shall flourish in the courts of our God. They shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be fat and flourishing; To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him. Jer. 17: 7,8. Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit. “Tane Mahuta” A giant Kauri tree in the Waipoua Forest Northland, New Zealand. John 15:1-6 1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Are you beginning to get the picture? The Lord likens us to trees…the church is His vineyard. He is the Head Gardner. Or in the case of a forest, the Head Ranger. And we, like the trees in any forest, need the fires of God’s chastening. And because we have been deliberately planted or cultivated, we also need pruning, and we need to be cleansed of all the rubbish and debris that litters our lives. For the forest, and for the Christian, there are seven areas of benefit from being in good health as a result of cleansing. Fruit. Fruit is food for the benefit of others, essential ingredients for ministry. Fruit of the Spirit is not for our own selfish benefit or pleasure, but to draw others to Christ. Fruit is the evidence that we are genuine Christians. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit, nor can a good tree produce bad fruit. We are known by our fruit. Seed. Good fruit produces good seed. An unhealthy forest cannot regenerate. Rubbish and debris littering the forest floor inhibits regrowth. Hypocrisy, sin, worldliness and compromise in the church can never be in harmony with evangelism. Compromising churches are not churches with a strong mission focus, and the preaching of the gospel can never produce more trees if the original is compromised. Regeneration is greatly enhanced once the seed is sown with an open and fertile forest floor. The seeds can be dispersed over a wider area, and the ground can accommodate much greater growth. The young saplings can enjoy the filtered sunlight through the canopy and receive adequate rains without interference. Foliage. Healthy foliage in the mature trees allows just the right amount of light to penetrate without burning the young growth. The young in our churches also need spiritual food in the form of milk, not meat. Too much sun wilts and too much meat creates indigestion. Healthy foliage also allows for a greater potential for hospitality. As the birds nest in the branches seeking shelter so may the needy find solace within our church communities. The foliage can be likened to our educational institutions, our electronic and print media, our charity work, our hospitals, and support services through which our young and visitors alike find teaching, shelter, comfort, and fellowship. Strong roots. Strong roots are storm proof. Weak roots lead to falling trees which damage others in their path, and destroy the young saplings growing underneath .How many young people in our churches have been damaged by those whose foundations were weak, and who apostatised from the truth? Fallen trees that do not reach the ground are even more dangerous. They are called ‘hang-ups’. Hang-ups are dead trees or branches that are leaning on others and relying on other trees for their support. They have no roots but are still a part of the forest. Every church has its ‘hang-ups’. A Laodicean is a ‘hang-up.’ One who is lukewarm but unaware of it. One who is content with being mediocre. Very dangerous, particularly if allowed free reign in the church to influence others with their liberal and compromising standards and beliefs, particularly for those young who are not mature enough to discern the difference. A strongly rooted Christian does not fall over when the storms come, They may sway, but do not fall. Soil stability. Ephesians 3:14-21: 14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. A combination of good soil and strongly rooted trees is the perfect foil to erosion and landslides. Revelation 12: 15,16: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. A church firmly grounded and firmly rooted in the truth can withstand the flood of Satan’s lies and deceptions. As the soil soaks up water, so the truth soaks up deception. .And the lesson from the USFS for us Christians is this. Do not be so ready to put out the little fires of God that are working in your life to sanctify and cleanse you from sin and all the habits that inhibit your growth. Far better to allow a small fire now to burn off the rubbish, than wait for that fire that can never be put out that will consume everything in its path until all is destroyed. It is the presence of God Himself that is a consuming fire; allow Him to enter into your life and do His work, the result is health in the immediate, and eternal life in the future.

Just because you disagree with someone else's beliefs does not warrant them being classed as "cult status". Nor did I claim it was a 'new discovery'. What I discovered personally was what Jesus and His disciples taught...as well as many of the reformers. You could add to that a growing number of well known theologians such as N T Wright. And please, please, the thoughts of the average man in the street may be sufficient evidence for you to determine the truth of scripture, but don't expect everyone me to. I know of very few Bible truths that the majority have completely correct.

There is no evidence in scripture that a sinner has eternal life...either physically or spiritually. Remember, Jesus warned of he who would destroy both soul AND body in hell. And when does this take place? After the second resurrection , which is for the wicked only, at the end of the 1000 years. The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to the earth, the wicked gather round the city after having been resurrected to face their final sentence, fire comes down from God and devours them This scene plays out on the surface of the earth! The earth is then recreated and it becomes our home. And as Malachi says, we then walk upon the ashes of those just destroyed. The same fire that destroys those wicked also cleanses the earth and prepares it for new life. Everything that does not belong to righteousness and holiness is forever gone...including sinners...sin....death.

Thanks for the welcome. As for my name, it isn't so much as 'urgency', but you are right, it does have a connotation of 'capturing attention', so to speak. I explain it this way on my blog. Traffic can be hell. Distractions, speeding, intolerance, abuse, rudeness…and much more can make traveling from one place to another a nightmare. It can be frustrating, dangerous, confusing, fraught with near misses and worse, at times one can get lost, even never reaching the intended destination. Which brings me to the ‘brakelite’. A bright warning light on the rear of the vehicles ahead that scream ‘hold-up’, ‘slow down’, or even ‘STOP’, but always when displayed it gives the following driver pause, and awakens one senses to seriously consider the way ahead. To evaluate the options, and choose wisely, hopefully, a safe line of travel, even if necessary in certain circumstances like a ‘detour’, turning around and going another way,. ‘Brakelite’ is the pseudonym I write under. For precisely the same reasons as described above. My hope is that as one reads my articles they will pause, consider their options, and choose wisely their way ahead. My hope and prayer is that all who read will safely arrive one day at the New Jerusalem, where we may meet by the grace of God and never more to worry over traffic jams Now to Matt 25:46.... 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. I am unsure as to why so many resort to this verse in defense of eternal torment, for that is not what it says, or even suggests. 'Eternal torment' is an interpretation given it by those whose preconceived notions need some form of affirmation to an otherwise indefensible doctrine. The word is everlasting punishment. In other words, whatever punishment we decide it is, it is everlasting. Please note that this verse reads “punishment” instead of“punishing”. And what is the punishment for sin and sinners? The answer is in 2Thessalonians 1:8, 9: “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.” You see, the punishment is here called everlasting destruction. Thus we can see that the wicked do go away into everlasting punishment because it is an everlasting destruction from which there will be no resurrection. Thus we see how clear and plain the Bible truth is made by allowing it to explain itself. The everlasting nature of it refers to its result, not to its continuation or ongoing process. As to the "ease of escape" that annihilation presents to you, I would agree with you, that when compared to eternal torment. annihilation would be a far better alternative. But that is not the choice facing us in life. The choice we face in life is not between non-stop punishing and destruction, but between eternal life and eternal death. A death where the separation from God, the only source of life, means a complete absence of life. With no hope of a resurrection. That choice Kwik is far easier, and I will take life every time.

Okay, one can look at some of those scriptures and place that connotation upon them. So we shall forget the OT ones I posted, and just stick with the NT. Phil. 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) And because you mentioned context, the above is set in direct contradistinction to the verse which follow.... 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. So the above passage is not speaking of a physical death that eventually pertains to all of us except those who are changed at the second coming. Let us look at another....1 Timothy 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition....perdition means nothing other than the eternal fate of the wicked, so the word 'destruction' in this context, means just that. Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. The above are the Lord's own words. And He sets destruction in direct contrast to life. Thus in harmony with the rest of scripture, Jesus sets clearly the choice we have before us. Life or destruction. Life or death. Lets see another showing the exact same context, and the exact same contrast between the two eternal destinies which face us.... Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, or there is this interesting one... 2 Peter 2: 1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 ¶ And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; So in the above Sodom and Gomorrha are presented as examples for all who afterward would live ungodly lives, right? And contextually, from the previous verses, we are speaking of eternal consequences, not just the end of physical life on earth, although that took place also. Peter speaks of damnation...judgement....condemnation...now let us look at what Jude says of this same incident.... Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Now isn't that interesting? Sodom and Gomorrha suffered eternal fire? Tell me. Are those cities being tormented today, are they still burning? Or are they destroyed, in perfect harmony and in perfect agreement with the rest of scripture? The punishment is eternal. It is death. It is destruction. It is eternal because there is no hope of a resurrection...no hope of being recreated...no hope of any form of life whatsoever. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Why is it that a word such as Destruction means something totally different in scripture to its use in every other circumstance? Why is it that Christians cannot simply read the word in the same sense as it does naturally in language and accept it as we would use it elsewhere? And can you please give me a clear text teaching eternal torment? And I am not denying there is torment. The thing is, that the fire of God does not tolerate sin. It frees the repentant man from his sin through Christ's baptim of fire, and it destroys both sin and unrepentant sinner together at the end of time, after an appropriate time of punishment. Sinners do not get off scot free by simply vanishing in a cloud of smoke. I am simply upholding what scripture says without adding my own reasoning. Shiloh did not point out that destruction means something else in scripture than it does elsewhere. And neither have you.

this topic has been a hot (pun not intended) topic for a long time. There was a time when I believd as many do here, that eternal torment is a sure desiny for the wicked..I remember preaching on this many times. But 15 years ago I came to realise 3 major things which I believe are unarguable, putting the lie to my former belief system. If eternal torment is true...if eternal torment is indeed the just punishment due the sinner... 1. Jesus did not spend eternity in torment, therefore my sins are not forgiven, the price of redemption not paid. 2. The nature of God forbids any scenario where His sense of justice is never satisfied...where justice is never accomplished, and so perverted and twisted that the price for sin is never fully paid for by the sinner, where the transgressor must spend eternity paying for a short life of sin, in some cases still children; and where that child, maybe an eleven year old, who died 700 years ago and presumably suffering now, suffers longer that the cruelest dictator who may die tomorrow. 3. The sinner is gifted eternal life along with the saint. The sinner merely resides at a different address. Yet we are told that 'death', merely means seperation from God. That the soul is immortal. And yet to accept all that, we need to believe that seperation from the only immortal life-giving Being in the universe, doesn't result in death? It simple does not make any sense whatsoever, aside from the fact that none of the above is taught in the Bible. Yes, eternal punishment is taught. Death, from which there is no hope of a resurrection, is eternal. The Bible speaks of eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. Yes, smoke ascends for ever and ever. Yet other instances in Hebrew literature(including the OT) speak of forever expiring at death. Yes, the Bible speaks often of sinners suffering in flames. And so they will. According to that which was done in the body, a just duration of time according to God's true justice, until the sinner dies the second death. Remember as I revealed in my first post, that the fire is in fact the very presence of God. The sinner dies in the presence of God...even because of the presence of God, because sin cannot abide the presence of God. To claim that the death of the sinner merely means a separation between him/her and God, is meaningless, for how can any lving thing continue to live separated from the only source of life? Sinners are NOT immortal, either in body or spirit. It seems to me in my more enlightened mind today that for anyone to support or defend eternal torment, one must be determined to do so irrespective of any teaching to the contrary. It seems strange to me that any would go to such lengths as some do in order to so reduce God's character to that which the pagans ascribe their gods from ancient history. The god created by those who support eternal torment is one of mans invention. It is not the God revealed to us in His word, nor lived by the One who came to reveal Him. So true is the axiom that because God created man in his own image, man has sought to return the compliment.

If there was only one text which speaks of the sinners destruction, then perhaps, I would be inclined to agree with you, that maybe context or something else may help explain a different understanding to the word. However, there are numerous texts and even entire passages that speak of the sinners destruction. Even several of Jesus parables echo the very same thought and principle, for example the burning to ashes of the branches that didn't bear fruit. Here are a small selection for your perusal... They shall be destroyed...Psalm 145:20;101:8;37:38;92:7;Prov.13:13;10:29;Phil.3:19;1 Tim.6:9; 2 Thess.1:9; Matt 7:13 They shall perish....Ps.37:20;Prov. 19:9; Luke 13:3; Jn 3:16. Oh, and by the way...living forever...not ever dying but being subjected to torture without end and without hope...is eternal life. They shall cease to exist. Psalm 37:10 perhaps I could add to that Malachi 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

And thankyou to all others who have welcomed me here. Like the new presentation by the way.

Thankyou for the welcome. I have been a member for about 5 years, but only for a short time was I active. Please tell me, how do you equate the words of scripture saying " They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might," with your own words, "everlasting torment"? Eternal destruction surely means simply that. To misconstrue it to mean eternal life, but just at a different address, is gravely (excuse the pun) misapplying scripture is it not?

There are often discussions on the nature and/or longevity of hell. It is believed by most that the wicked, in order to meet the justice of a righteous God, suffer for all eternity in "hellfire" without being consumed by it. But is that what the Bible really teaches? Let us see.... Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? ....so, who DOES dwell in the everlasting burnings??? 15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil. He that walks in righteousness? Really? Consider all the following... Exodus 3:1-5....19:18-20....40:38....1 Kings 8:10,11....Ezek. 28:14.....Daniel 7:9,10.....Hebrews 12:29 Lots of fire in all these different scenarios, but nothing was burned... Except there is a warning against the wicked that they should avoid at all costs this fire. Why? See Exodus 19:21-24.....and do you remember the account of Nadab and Abihu? See Levit. 10:1,2. So some things perish in the same fire that others things continue to survive in! What is this fire? It is the very presence of God. When Moses went up to the top of Sinai he went into the midst of fre and smoke and thunder and lightening for 40 days and came back with his face shining so much the people couldn't bear it and demanded he cover it up. Even a reflection of God's glory was unbearable to sinners. That is why only the High Priest, and only after serious preparation, could enter the Most Holy Place, and then only once a year...and with a rope tied to his ankle in case he fell before the Lord and someone had to drag him out! Oh, and when Nadab and Abihu were taken out from being "devoured in the fire", they were still fully dressed, yet fully dead!!! So, according to Isaiah, the righteous are enabled to live in the everlasting fire of the Lord's presence forever, but that same fire consumes sinners. Thus the fire of God is NOT a fire of COMBUSTION, but a fire that consumes sin!!! And sin, as we all would agree, is rooted in the (father of) lies, deceptions, and selfishness of Satan. These principles of evil are not going to be destroyed by a physical fire, but at the very last, by the presence of God Himself as He comes with the New Jerusalem and devours the wicked. See Revel. 20:9 And what of sin in the repentant sinner? What destroys that? Again, not a physical fire, but the presence of God. The lies, deceptions, and selfishness is are destroyed by the Spirit of Truth and Love and Light. See... John 14:17;15:26;16:13; Romans 1:4; 8:2; 8:9; 1 Cor. 6:11; 2 Cor. 3:3,17,18; 2 Tim 1:7; 1 Peter 4:14.... When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost were the disciples devoured by the fire that came with it? No, they were prepared for service. John the Baptist said the Jesus would baptize His people with the Holy Spirit AND with fire. It is the fire of the presence of God in our lives that devours sin and selfishness. If any claim to be "filled with the Holy Spirit" and "the presence of God" yet you still are clinging to sin, your claims are false. If the principle action of the Holy Spirit in the believers life is not to bring the repentant sinner into harmony with the righteousness of God, you are partaking of a false spirit. And finally, the presence of God does not torture sinners for all eternity...it destroys them for all eternity. It is an eternal death which is the everlasting punishment. Not torture. The wages of sin is death, not torture. Sinners are NOT immortal. Immortal life belongs ONLY to God, (1 Timothy 6:15,16) and is given as a GIFT to those who are saved through faith in the blood of the Lamb...eternal life is NOT given as a gift to sinners in order that they may be tortured for all eternity. Read again John 3:16. That one single verse, the most well known in the entire Bible, is the ONLY verse needed, if believed, to refute forever any notion that hell is a place of eternal physical suffering. If now, you are thinking of quoting another verse which you claim says different, you do not believe in John 3:15,16

God’s love: infinite, abundant,unreserved,unconditional. God so loves the world, that there is not one person, living or dead, that Jesus did not die for. The apostle Paul says that if God was so willing to give His Son, He along with His Son willingly offers everything else also (Romans 8:32). This without any doubt includes all the advice, counsel, and directions in order that we may find our way to Him (Jeremiah 6:16; Matt.7:14; Hebrews 1:1-3;12:1,2; 1 Peter 2:2:21-25) along with all the warnings of the pitfalls, dangers, and wrong paths that may lead us astray.God has clearly described the full gospel, demonstrated His love, proclaimed His grace and mercy, and He has defined sin, exposed heresy, exposed our enemies, and repeatedly warned us of Satan’s many varied and subtle deceptions that would lead us into a false hope (John 10:10; Isaiah 45:19; Amos 3:7; Isaiah 8:19,20). When time comes that we must face our Maker, we will have no excuse. As we look to the future, prophecy informs us that we are nearing a time of great crisis of such magnitude that not since Noah has there been a time of such import and significance. And in fact in Revelation 14:9-11 is the most dire warning in all scripture, and that time is immediately before us. So I ask. Is this warning given in love? Yes. If such a dire warning is given, do you think God would also offer a sure identification of the Antichrist that we may not be deceived? Again, the answer is yes. And would not that same love also reveal not just who the beast is, but how we may avoid its mark? Remember, “He that spared not His own Son, but offered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?” Let us get real here. Why is it that many in the church then move away from that revelation regarding the Antichrist, and attach to him their own theories and opinions when no such things are necessary? God has not enshrouded His warnings in a mystery that cannot be understood. The church has become full of prognosticators and clairvoyants, finding simple Biblical exegesis insufficient so people devise imaginative future enemies about to persecute the church, attack Israel, decimate all that they believe is good and sound, all the while ignoring and setting aside God’s word that warns them that the enemy is not without the church, but within. In attempting to tell everyone that the enemy is still future and is coming from the horizon afar off, they do the devil’s own work and deceive people into ignoring the real enemy who is standing beside them whose doctrines and dogmas they have all been partaking of. In this they are ignoring the very word of God that says “Come out of her my people”. God says come out of the Antichrist system, and the mainstream Christian church teaches it hasn’t arrived yet! And not only so, but because they believe the coming enemy is an individual, how can they come out anyway from an individual? God’s warning makes no sense to such a one. They fail to perceive that the Antichrist is not an individual, but a succession of individuals who preside over the one system. It is that system that is so very well described in scripture, and it is that system that God calls His people to leave. It is the system that God warns of, it is the system that is the enemy, and it is that system that so many are even now fully card-carrying-life members of but are totally unaware and oblivious of the danger! In Revelation 13, that wonderful chapter that focuses so intently on the ‘Beast’ and its character and work, mentions ‘worship’ five times, and in the following chapter, 3 times. Satan lusts for and craves worship. Isaiah quotes Lucifer in Isaiah 14:13,14. “I will ascend into heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.”!! Satan, aka Lucifer, has an “I” problem. If Satan however strolled into the local church, of whatever denomination, introduced himself and said “worship me”, is the congregation going to do that? Hardly. Does Satan know such a tactic would fail? Of course. So in order for him to receive the worship he so desperately craves, he has to make people believe they are worshiping the true God, when in actuality they are worshiping the false. Thus Satan has to use deception. He must introduce a system of worship that is so close to the original that it is almost impossible to tell them apart. He must introduce a counterfeit. He cannot do this by force, as people will be on to it immediately. In order to destroy the church, Satan tried with persecution through pagan Rome, but failing to lessen the growth of the church, he had to use more subtle methods. Introducing false doctrine he slowly but surely began to chip away at the foundations of truth until the people were believing a lie. Then they would be ready for the last great deception, and be led into false worship. God, Who sees the end from the beginning, warns us of this great counterfeit. God has shown us who is Antichrist. Paul wrote in 2 Thess. 2:3,4. “Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day (the second advent) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped: so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” Here we see Antichrist promoting himself to a place of worship. What is the temple of God in the Christian era? It is the church. (1 Cor.3:16,17; 6:19; 2 Cor.6:16; Eph. 2:19-22). Therefore Antichrist is placing himself in a position of authority and as an object of worship within the church. He is not on the outside attacking the church, he is on the inside deceiving it. Paul repeats his former warning in Acts 20:29,30. “I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.” Paul also says in 2Thess. 2:7 “the mystery of iniquity doth already work.” Thus the great apostasy he warned of had already begun in the days of the apostles, and this apostasy was to result in slowly and cunningly eroding away many important Bible truths from men’s minds that would last for centuries. The Antichrist who was to bring on the crisis of the mark of the beast at the end of time began forming and growing into power in those early days. John confirmed this saying in 1 John 4:3 “that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come, and even now is it in the world.” So Satan was raising up his counterfeit a long time ago,for it was through this counterfeit system of worship that Satan himself would be worshiped. Notice in… Revelation 13:11 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.” Who is this dragon? Revelation 12:9 tells us ” And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Thus it is Satan who gives the beast its power, its seat (or throne) and authority. Bu this is not all. In reading Revelation 13:1,2 we are taken back to the 4th beast of Daniel, pagan Rome. The parallels between pagan Rome and the dragon, both in symbol and practice, is not a coincidence. And documented history reveals that it was pagan Rome, more specifically Emperor Justinian, that gave official approval to the popes in the 6th century to assume not only civil power in Rome, but also authority over all Christendom. It was from this time that the Roman church began its venture as a church/state union, the typical and common characteristic of all pagan religions. And continuing in Revelation 13:3 “And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered (or marvel in admiration) after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?” So there it is. By worshiping Antichrist, they by proxy are worshiping Satan. Antichrist is Satan’s frontman, his alter-ego, his counterfeit. Through the worship of Antichrist Satan fulfils his lifelong dream to receive the worship of man. But there is more. He enlists help, and we read about this a little later in the same chapter… 11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. Notice that it is the people, (the ‘they' in verse 14) who under recommendation from the state power, create this image, another church/state union, and it is the second beast, or nation, that gives the church/state union its power. And notice that this nation with the horns like a lamb speaks as a dragon…speaks like the devil…like the pagan emperor who granted the Roman church power in the 6th century, so also does this second nation give power and authority to this newly developed church/state union. The Majority will Worship their Enemy. Deception,worship,deception,worship. These are the issues of the last days. Remember, this is God’s loving ‘revelation’ concerning true and false worship. It is the love of God which prompted Jesus to warn constantly of the core theme of the times leading up to His second advent. Matt. 24:4 ¶ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many….11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many….23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Deception is surely a major factor contributing to the confusion and apostasy of Babylon. Are not the abominations in the cup which she holds her deceptions and false doctrines? But of what purpose are these deceptions if they do not relate directly to how we relate to our Creator? Are they not designed to draw us away from a right relationship with God? Yes, assuredly. But more than that, and I cannot stress this enough, Satan seeks to draw us away from the Creator toward himself. Through deception, he has the whole world worshiping the Antichrist, and the whole world believes they are worshiping God. The counterfeit system of worship is so beguiling, so attractive, and presents itself in such a loving, caring, compassionate, Christian way, that the entire world is deceived into accepting her, obeying her dogmas, following her counsel, keeping her man-made commandments. The Truth Liberates. So back to our original question. Does God want us to be so deluded that we would submit ourselves to a system of worship directed through Antichrist to Satan? Of course not. That is why Jesus warned us repeatedly of false prophets, false Christs. That is why the inspired scriptures go into such great and minute detail in the books of Daniel and Revelation concerning Antichrist and his work. And it is from these details that we can gather sufficient information to come to an honest and correct conclusion as to the exact identity of the Antichrist. To the precise identity of this false worship system that even now has much of the world in its grasp. The apostle Paul said that if we have a love for truth, we would not be deceived (2 Thessalonians 2:8-12) , and Paul is referring directly to the Antichrist when he penned these words. Jesus said in John 17:17 that we are sanctified by the word of truth, and in John 8:32 that if we continue in His word the truth of His word will set us free. Free from sin, free from error, free from false doctrine, free from deception. According to most modern evangelists, Antichrist is yet to come. The scriptures however are very clear. Antichrist is here now, and hard at work drawing the world after him as you read these words. And true to form, and in fulfillment of prophecy, much of the Christian world is either in denial, deluded, or at best confused, as to the true nature of the beast which is before them. They see it, they even wonder after it marveling at her power and splendor, many praise it, countless millions obey her commands in direct contradistinction to the commandments of God, but very few perceive the true nature of it. God’s exceedingly great and infinite love for you demands you understand this truth. In His word He has provided all the information needed to ensure that no-one need be deceived or lack understanding in matters relating to such an essential matter as worship. Worship is what is due our Creator. It is who we worship that defines our loyalties. And it is how we worship that defines who we worship. Jesus said to the Samaritan woman, “the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father is Spirit and in Truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is Spirit; and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.” John 4:22-24. The last great delusion is set to present itself to the world, and even now is busily doing so. Antichrist is to perform his marvelous works in the sight of man. So closely will this system resemble the true, that it will be almost impossible to discern between truth and error except for the scriptures. No-one who hasn’t trained themselves to search for and grasp the truths of the Bible will remain faithful to the true God when the coming crisis deepens. When demands come that they obey certain commandments, because they have failed to study and accept scripture, they will not discern that these commandments of men demand submission to counterfeit truth, and usurp the commandments of God. The fearful judgements that are proclaimed against those who worship the beast, the image, and receive the mark, as revealed in Revelation 14, should drive all men to an earnest study of the scriptures and the prophecies to learn what the mark is, who the beast is, and how they are to avoid them. The Bible, and the Bible only, must be the standard for all doctrine and belief. As a wise woman once said…The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science,the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority …not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain ‘thus saith the Lord’ in its support….with the many warnings against false teachers, why are the people so ready to commit the keeping of their souls to the clergy? There are today thousands of professors of religion who can give no other reason for the points of faith which they hold than that they were so instructed by their religious leaders…a lack of moral courage to step aside from the beaten track of the world, leads many to follow in the steps of learned men, and by their reluctance to investigate for themselves, they are becoming hopelessly fastened in the chains of error…the truth and the glory of God are inseparable; it is impossible for us, with the Bible within our reach, to honor God by erroneous opinions. It is the first and highest duty of every rational being to learn from the scriptures what is truth, and then to walk in the light, and encourage others to follow His example. Ignorance of God’s word is sin, when every provision has been made that we may become wise. We should day by day study the Bible diligently, weighing every thought, and comparing scripture with scripture. With divine help, we are to form our opinions for ourselves, as we are to answer for ourselves before God. Compare Daniel 7 and Revelation 13. Take note of all the parallels. There is no other power other than the RCC which meets all the criteria of being the Antichrist of scripture. Nor is there any other nation than the US who being democratic, has the power and worldly influence and authority to convince her people, and then the world, to create a Protestant church/state union as a direct image of the papacy, demanding obedience to papal dogmas, papal creeds, and specifically with regard to the laws or commandments of God, Torah, submission to the papal counterfeit of Sabbath, Sunday. Sunday, the RCC officially claims, is the “mark of her authority” in religious matters. Remember, in Revelation 14 there are only two groups of people in the last days. The sheep and the goats are divided on the basis of obedience to God’s laws. Those who accept the mark of the beast, are set in direct contrast to “those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.” Revel. 14:12. Study current events. Line them up with prophecy. And pray. Pray earnestly and diligently for confirmation and help from the Holy Spirit. God promises that the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth. God wants you to know the truth. No more trusting in fictional novels and so-called ‘Christian’ movies. No more trusting in the clergy and the television evangelists who assume so much and present so little.

On the more deaths from war I will agree (technology is a wonderful thing no?), on bigger conflicts I would agree. On more wars, I would disagree. Man has always been at war. How many wars are recorded in the bible? Dozens? Hundreds? Some nations cannot have survived without a war driven economy. Some have as one of their biggest industries, arms manufacture. Are you aware that there are over 30 armed conflicts in the world as we write? I think we should broaden our perspective however when it comes to violence. Jesus said that the last days would be as they were in the days of Noah. Genesis tells us that at that time the world was filled with violence. Just like today. I do believe the expression 'wars and rumours of wars' could very easily be extended to include all violence. Civil unrest as in the Middle East today...violent crime...gang warfare....drug wars....family violence...child abuse....just as in the days of Noah, todays world is filled with violence...

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled:for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: There is a great escalation in verse 7 from the previous verse where war was simply rumour and hearsay. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries the world was full of confidence and great expectation of a coming millennium of peace and safety brought about by very recent remarkable advances in scientific knowledge in industry and medicine. Christianity was held dear by the vast majority of those living in the world, before communism took over in Russia, before the Chinese shut out the missionaries from the west, before Japan turned away the church from their doors. And by far the vast majority of Christians believed in a soon coming millennium to be brought about by the efforts of man himself. Most saw the future with an eagerness and expectation of God’s kingdom being established in their lifetime… Bible Societies were springing up all over the world, missionaries were entering places never before thought possible; stories were coming from people like Taylor in China, Livingstone in Africa. These stories were hugely popular and helped imbue a great missionary zeal throughout the Christian world. Until WW1. This dashed hopes and shocked many. Any remaining hope was expunged by the great depression and WW2. Instead of society improving into a godly utopia, the world crashed into chaos. The 20th century turned into a bloodbath. The planet began to turn itself into one vast war cemetery. More wars and war related deaths than the previous 6000 years of man’s history put together. All in just 100 years. Not only 2 world wars, but also Vietnam, Rwanda, Ethiopia, Chechnya, Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq, Libya and on and on and on. And it hasn’t stopped. ...and there shall be famines... War is evil and devastating both on man and beast. Add to that famine , and things escalate exponentially. Hunger , in any sense of the word, is not good. During wartime, it is infinitely worse. ...and pestilences... War and famine is bad enough, but add disease and it gets ten times worse. and earthquakes, in divers places. And then we have those hungry, diseased war-torn people without anywhere to live because their homes are destroyed and once again you see an escalation in these sorrows,and these disasters can be natural, or man-made as a result of the wars, yet 8 All these are the (Only the) beginning of sorrows. However, notice something else about the previous scenario. At first we see nations and kingdoms divided. They are at war with one another, there is strife among the nations of the world, there is no accord, no peace, and no agreement.Yet just 2 verses after reading the “nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom,” verse we read 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. Who is “they”? Well surely it must be the nations which were not long before fighting one another. And here we see them united against God’s people!! 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And not only do the nations hate God’s people, but God’s people are being offended and turning each other over to the authorities. (Jesus warned us elsewhere of the time when our enemies will be those of our own household, and that there will come a time when those who kill us will think they are serving God.) Who are these who get offended? See Matthew 13:21. Those who get offended are fellow Christians who do not endure the coming persecution of the nations. All this however leads me to the following question. What was it that changed the mindset of the divided nations to make them unite? What was it that motivated the nations to give up their hatred against one another, and turn it toward God’s redeemed ? Take another look at the above verses. Verse 7 describes war. Verse 9 describes the united front against the church. So what happened in between those two verses? The natural disasters!!! It is the natural disasters that bring the nations together. What has happened in recent history? After WW1 the league of nations was formed. It failed. After WW2 the Untied Nations was formed. It also has been a failure, and continues to be. After 9/11 the president of the US called upon all the nations of the world to unite against terrorism. We have seen unprecedented international support following hurricane Katrina, the Asian Tsunami, and now the Haiti, Chilean, Christchurch and Japan earthquakes. In fact Japan traditionally never accepts help from anyone, but after this particular disaster accepted assistance from Korea and China, both former enemies! We daily witness records being smashed with regard to tornadoes and hurricanes in both frequency, numbers and strength. We have seen just what the prophecy portrayed, a massive escalation in natural disasters. And we also see more and more the world uniting to help the victims and repair the damage. After the economic crash a few years ago we saw the same. Calls for a “New World Order” are coming now thick and fast, from political leaders the world over, and even the pope. In fact the pope has gone on record saying that he was the only person with the standing and moral integrity to lead this NWO. Many leading politicians of the world agree with this, and have been queuing up outside the Vatican front door to show their support in droves. And the latest is climate change. In Copenhagen we saw for the first time the words “One world government” in an international treaty. One world government has leaped confidently from the conspiracy basket to current affairs. Note the following quote from the newly elected leader of the EU. In accepting his appointment as the first president of the European Union, Belgian Prime Minister Herman Van Rompuy announced that “global governance” is the only way to address the crises that beset the planet. In a Christmas speech of 2005 Pope Benedict first spoke these now favored global warming scare tactics of pandemics, economic situation, and terrorism as good reasons to “let the child of Bethlehem take you by the hand” into a much needed global government that will fix all these problems. Today, the terms “global government”, “one world government”, “new world order” and similar expressions are so common place coming from the lips of world leaders, that the media has stopped reporting on it. Note the following words of Jesus… Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; With perplexity. This means that the nations are faced with such an insurmountable set of problems that they see no way out. So they unite in an attempt to solve the crisis. And we see that happening before our very eyes. The world is today uniting in an unprecedented manner to combat the problems that are facing mankind. But rather than turning to God in repentance and reformation, the leaders of the world are turning to one another, relying on their own wisdom and understanding to solve the crisis. Prophecy however does tell us that God will be an integral part of the coming NWO, for Revelation tells us that a form of worship is enforced upon all men. So a form of recognition to a spiritual component brings about the mark spoken of in Revelation 13. But why attack the church? Because they are united not only politically, but also in a global counterfeit Christian system of religion ( Babylon the Great). They not only establish political laws, but also religious. They establish , as can be read in Rev 13, laws that pertain to worship, but because the disasters continue, against their most cherished hopes, and despite their best attempts to placate what they believe to be the end-time judgments of an angry God, the crisis only deepens, and they end up blaming those who have not bowed themselves to the NWO. … God’s people. The time is right upon us. Even at the doors. Look up, for our redemption draweth nigh.

I can very well imagine Paul at the end of every sermon saying, "don't take my word for it, check the scriptures." And the Bereans did.

The name "Israel" first appears in the Bible in Genesis 32:28 After a night of wrestling with the heavenly visitor Jacob prevails in his efforts and his name is changed from Jacob, the deceiver or supplanter, to Israel, meaning he will rule. Jacob has prevailed with God and overcome. At the time of this event, Jacob was reluctant to face Esau after 20 years of exile and was quite simply terrified of him. His former deception of his father and claim to be Esau was now playing on his conscience and he desired God's blessing and forgiveness before proceeding. So the 'Angel' asks Jacob his name, to which he truthfully replies 'my name is Jacob'. In this he was confessing his guilt, and God then knew he was a changed man, so gave him a new name that celebrated so to speak his victory over sin, self and his night of wrestling in prayer, the 'Angel' saying "for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed." Israel, as a name therefore represents spiritual victory over sin. In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharaoh in order that Israel's descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses "and thou shalt say unto Pharaoh 'Thus saith the Lord,Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me..." This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people. Did corporate Israel live up to that name? What was God trying to accomplish in establishing Israel in the first place? Was it not that He would have a people to represent Him on the earth? Before God had His champions, but all failed. Sin interposed and no longer was any of God's chosen able to fulfil the true destiny that God intended for them. Adam failed over appetite. So did Noah. Abraham also, but God was determined to establish a people after His own heart and show the gentiles His law, His mercy and grace and power. Interesting that Adam, Noah, and Israel all failed on points of appetite. (Gen 9:20,21; Exodus 16:27-29.) It wasn't until Jesus came on the scene in person that the title "Israel" in it's truest spiritual sense and power could be rightly bestowed. And Matthew in particular showed this time and time again how Jesus was the fulfilment of the OT prophecies which may have originally applied to the nation, but now, according to Matthew's inspired writings, applied in fact to Jesus. Examples are Hosea 11:1 ; Isaiah 41:8,42:1-3 . Paul followed the same idea and reasoning by paralleling Coll 1:15 with Ex 4:22, Gal 3:16 with Isaiah 41:8 and elsewhere. Jesus Himself proclaimed Himself as the true vine, in fulfilment of Ps 80:8 which applied to the nation. So now the mantle and authority once bestowed upon the nation has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the essence of true Israel. He only has the right to bear the name for He only has prevailed with sin and overcome. Jesus walked over the same ground that Israel walked, but came through victorious. In His temptations in the wilderness, it was appetite that came under particular scrutiny. What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus' descendants, just as it did to Jacob's descendants. Peter also showed this when he compared the church to Exodus 19:6.(1 Peter 2:9). So as Paul says, immediately after saying that Jesus is the 'seed' of Abraham, Gentile converts in Galatia were now also Abraham's seed because they are Christ's. They are also heirs according to the promise. This is not 'replacement ' theology. It is merely a revelation of who true Israel always was and who Israel is now.True Israel was always exclusively those who "as princes had power with God and men and prevailed". It is those people, of whatever nation kindred tongue and people, who by faith in the mercy grace and power of God overcome sin and receive Christ's righteousness and forgiveness as a gift and are willing to share that gift with the lost. True Israel always was, and is today, exclusively those who "as princes had power with God and men and prevailed". It was always God's intention that corporate Israel as a nation live up to that name. But throughout history, only a remnant did so. The same applies today. Not all who say Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but they who do the will of the Father. Being Israel has nothing to do with being a nation, or a church, but rather about being faithful and loyal to the God who created and redeemed us.