brakelite

Revelation 14:14-20 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. I see here perhaps angels dividing the sheep from the goats...the sheep to be taken home, the goats to be killed ...the angels under direction of Jesus. That winepress and blood for a certain depth and distance? Not sure about that, certainly not literal...although all the wicked shall suffer under the wrath of God and will have already suffered through the final plagues...those who have managed to survive will die at the sight of the glory of God. Looking forward to being carried by an angel to wherever....

Ain't that the truth.

My posts on this thread follow precisely the criteria laid out as guidelines for this thread...upholding the righteousness of Christ by faith....and encouraging others to do the same. In rejecting that it is you who perhaps inadvertently has placed herself in the hands of the Lord. Your preoccupation in rejecting the 4th commandment while upholding the other nine makes no sense, and is the reason God needs to remind everyone to remember it. However, as you wish. I will take my leave.

With all due respect to all on this thread, I agree with the above quote from Davida, but I also think she is misunderstanding the meaning of works and meaning of salvation. And I put this down to the confusion of doctrine that is rife throughout Christendom, both with Catholic and non-Catholic circles. (I hesitate to call non-Catholic churches Protestant...that no longer is the case, sadly.) The current predominant idea with the Calvinistic mindset that the cross of Calvary is all one needs for salvation, that the work is "finished" there, that one needs only to confess Jesus and he is saved, and that once saved always saved and nothing he does from that point on can affect his salvation, and that even when he commits an "offence" as a Christian, of whatever magnitude, is not actually sin because a Christian "cannot sin", and after all he is saved anyway, is placing the entire fabric of the church in jeopardy. The cross did not finish the work of salvation in man. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then we would have no hope. If Jesus was not now mediating in heaven as our High Priest we would not have power to obey. We were justified at the cross. But without being sanctified, which is a process through which we are made holy, by which our sin is removed from the life, by which we are empowered to obey God's commandments, then we are as much lost as if Christ never came at all. Our obedience, our keeping of God's commandments, are not the means by which attain salvation, but one can be fully assured that we will NOT be saved except we repent, turn away from, and repudiate every last vestige of wickedness and sin in the life. There are numerous promises in the scripture which guarantee, because God cannot lie, that we can overcome sin. That sin shall NOT have dominion over us, but that we shall have dominion over sin. The concept that we will sin till the day is a denial of the power of God, and an excuse for disobedience. Even in the OT sanctuary service the altar of sacrifice was only the very first step in God's plan of salvation for Israel. And the altar represents Calvary. But Israel was not saved at the altar. Israel did not celebrate their complete emancipation from sin until the end of the day of atonement when the high priest came out of the most holy place to once again appear before the people. This departing of the high priest from the most holy place represents the departure of Jesus, our High Priest, out of the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary and come the second time to earth to take His justified, sanctified, and soon to be glorified people home. Good works, are merely a euphemism for being a nice person...anyone, the most determined atheist, can do good works. What God requires is obedience. In everything. Without hesitation. Without quibbling. Jesus did not come to save us in our sins. He came to save us from our sins. Amen?

God's commandments are not my personal belief or conviction. They existed a long long time before I appeared on the scene. I am not trying to foist upon anyone a philosophy that I invented and made personal. I like what you have been writing on this thread. You have consistently and with great conviction upheld righteousness and obedience to God's commandments as being essential to being true followers of Christ. Not in order to be justified, but as an integral part of the process of sanctification, without which no-one will see God. I am merely echoing those same thoughts, but including the 4th commandment for one reason and one reason only. Nowhere in scripture does it say that God has removed His blessing and sacredness from that day. The above texts are incredibly weak basis for changing an explicit commandment that specifies a certain day, to another day. Only one of the above suggests a meeting of any kind. And that meeting took place on the dark part of the first day of the week, that is Saturday night...at the close of the Sabbath. Paul was leaving 'on the morrow' , or next morning, which would have been Sunday morning. A very shaky foundation there for Sunday keeping. There are only 7 other references to the first day in scripture, apart from at creation. Five of them were directly related to the resurrection, the 6th to when the disciples were cowering in a room because they were afraid they were going to suffer the same fate as Jesus, and the last reference to Paul's request to lay aside an offering for the saints at Jerusalem. Nothing in that last one suggests he was going to pick that offering up on the first day. It was the person's first fruits. After Sabbath the first day of the week was a day of work. The first days pay was to be set aside for others. Do we not do that with our tithe and offerings? The Revelation 1:10 text simply says the Lord's day. Nothing in that suggests the first day, second day, or whatever day. Just because the modern church calls Sunday the Lord's day, does not mean that is what John was referring to. So we must go elsewhere to discern which day it was that belonged to the Lord. We find that in Mark 2:28. Should we not obey God in a fashion which He commands rather than in a way we prefer or is popular or held by the majority?

That is not what I am saying. However, the gospel is the way of salvation. Inherent in the gospel as I showed is giving glory to God because He is Creator...which included the Sabbath, a day He blessed and sanctified. Now regardless of whether the Jews were given it or not...regardless of whether Christians have or have not kept it since Christ's time...the day itself remains blessed and the Creator God is still worthy of all the glory because of creation, which the Sabbath celebrates. You cannot divide Sabbath from creation...and you cannot divide the Creator from that which He created...nor can you give Him the glory for doing so and at the same time set aside that day which reminds everyone of Who it is that created. James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. It is also sin if we decline to prayerfully and honestly investigate these issues when we have a Bible on the shelf which informs us to what is truth. I cannot judge you personally, therefore I am not saying you are condemned for not keeping Sabbath. There will be millions of non-Sabbath keepers in heaven. But as I said, the gospel is salvational, and the law cannot be separated from it when it is the law that reflects God's character.

When will people learn that those keeping the law aren't doing so to be saved? On the contrary, only those with Christ in them are capable of obeying God's commandments. So why suggest that because I choose to obey God's commandments with regard Sabbath keeping and follow His recommendations on how to care for this body He made for me, I am therefore unsaved? Rom. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Yes, Colossians 2 is interesting. Verses 4 and 8 warns us to take no heed of those who would quote: spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Thus Paul is warning Christians that people outside of Christ would attempt to beguile them through falsehoods...from verse 18 we may deduce again that it was the deceivers, the ones outside of Christ, who was beguiling and judging the Christians in respect of those things mentioned in Verse 16. They had been imposing their man-made commandments and traditions upon the Colossians. Paul told them not to allow anyone to judge them concerning those matters. Is not Sunday...'Christ is my rest'...no special day...any day of the 7...all man-made beliefs for which there is no foundation in scripture? Has not the church been beguiled already to the extent that there is now so much hatred for Sabbath keeping as we now witness within Christendom and without any solid agreement on why? The deception began in earnest with Rome and the setting of dates for Easter as opposed to Passover. Until that time, the church celebrated the death and resurrection at the same time as the Jewish passover...but the coercion used to bring all churches into the Papal umbrella with easter continued afterward with Sunday. Interesting history.

Regardless of whether it is Adventist teaching or not, if you can show me from scripture where my post above is wrong, then fine. I will accept my error. Most claim that SDA teaching is unbiblical. I have shown above that it is Biblical. It is not the figment of anyone's imagination. You don't have to agree with it, but it is neither whimsical or heretical.

2 Peter 1:3-4 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue....so His divine power has provided us with all things that pertain to life and godliness (no excuse for sin there) and this godliness comes to us through our knowledge of Him. (See John 17:3...this is a salvational issue). What is this divine power? It is creative power. It is that power which makes us new creatures in Christ. It is the power which raised Christ from the dead...the same power that raises us from self-replicating moral viruses into the righteousness of Christ... Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.....what is Paul suggesting here? In Romans he says sin shall no longer have dominion over us, and above we see that the same power that gave Jesus dominion over all things, is the same power that works in us, that we, through partaking of the divine nature and believing the promises of God, may have dominion over sin! Sadly, many people do not believe this possible. We hear constantly that whilst in this flesh, we will continue to sin until Jesus comes...maybe even beyond that!! How can anyone overcome if their faith cannot grasp the wonderful promises that guarantee victory? ..... 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust....however, our partaking of that divine nature (which separates us from the world) comes by way of promises, therefore nothing is automatic...promises are received by faith. Now where else may we see a similar promise? Romans 8:29 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren....God has predetermined that those who come to Him in faith, grasping the promises, will be conformed into the image of His Son!!! This folks is not about appearance. This is about character. The divine nature Paul is referring to is not omnisience or omnipresence or any other omni...it's about righteousness. Let me take you somewhere else for a moment...in Revelation another promise is that the Father's name will be written in our foreheads. Now don't think for a moment that we are all going to be literally tattooed on our brows with YAHWEH or any of His numerous other names or titles, no. I love Exodus 33 and 34, where Moses was talking with God and pleaded with God that He would go with them. Then Moses had the audacity...faith and confidence...to ask God .... Exodus 33:18-23 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory... 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. Exodus 34:5-8 5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. 6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. 8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. I truly hope you can make the connections here. We are promised the divine nature...His character...His righteousness. God's glory is His character. His character is found in His name. John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now let's go back to that promise in Revelation concerning the Father's name in our foreheads. Elsewhere is the promise of the seal of God in the forehead. While it is true that the sealing is integral to the character and a settling into truth by the Spirit of God, both spiritually and intellectually, a seal in human terms is bound up in law...it is a guarantee that a law has been approved/ratified by the reigning monarch/president/minister. The laws of God are transcripts of His character. We are informed elsewhere that God shall write His laws in our hearts and on His mind...I strongly suggest, though I know this is unpopular, that the mark of the beast is not a literal mark on the skin but an attitude of mind...a state of mind that has accepted the same mindset as the beast; that agrees with the beast power on matters of spiritual truth and doctrine. Where is the mind? Is it not in our forehead? Are we not sealed by the Spirit in our foreheads? Is not the name of the Father written in our forehead? Are we not promised that we may be partakers of the divine nature...the righteousness of Christ? Is not our character first established in the mind? I also strongly suggest that the divinity we are promised is bound up in the laws of God and the character of God. This character of the divine, is promised and available today. It means dominion over sin which is transgression against the law. It means that by faith and the sure knowledge of the one who has promised, we may overcome, in this life!!! John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled..... .....21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Now you may be wondering what the above has to do with the gospel. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Revelation 14:6-7 6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. The whole gospel is bound up in obedience to God's commandments and reflecting His character of love to mankind. We are called, as an integral part of that same everlasting gospel, to fear God, give Him glory, but notice which God we are called to honour...in Revelation 14:7 it is the God who made...the Creator God who made heaven and earth, the sea, and the fountains of waters. Where else do we find such words? Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: Why is God worthy of glory and honour which the everlasting gospel requires of us??? for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Now, how can we fully give God that glory due Him when we ignore this?? 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy..... 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. How can we fully honour the Creator when we ignore that which completed creation? Was not the Sabbath also created by God for man to enjoy and through its blessing honour Him who made it? How is the law complete...how is the character of God honoured...how can we give all glory to Him as He deserves when we sell ourselves short of complete revelation? Final thought. The seal spoken of in Revelation is not just an intellectual and spiritual settling into truth, but can also be a literal seal pertaining to God's law. Without the 4th commandment identifying the Creator as the God of that law, whose law would it be? Any man, angel, or group or institution could come up with a set of laws similar to the ten commandments. But like the seal of POTUS, which gives the laws of the land an official stamp of approval from the ruling authority, identifying his name, rank, and territory over which he resides, so also does the 4th commandment act as God's seal on His holy law. To set it aside is to rob the law of its authority and power.

Isaiah 33:14-15 14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil.

Deleted

No, not really...just for consideration.

You say that the word trinity isn't important, yet in history people have been executed for not accepting it. Along with Sunday sacredness the trinity is the foundation of Catholicism. That makes it very important for Protestants also who claim to have scripture as the basis for faith and practice yet by cleaving resolutely to both the trinity and Sunday, follow Catholic tradition. And term those who accept neither of these teachings as heretics. Seems fairly important to me. So while I agree with the scriptures you have presented, what I disagree with is their application as given in the creeds. So while it is true that the holy Spirit is divine, the creeds go beyond that in claiming the Spirit as an independent being who is God. It is similar with the only begotten Son Who it is claimed is equal to the Father in all things which destroys the whole concept of Father and Son. I notice you have avoided the issue of Father and Son in your presentation above, yet belief in the Father/Son concept is essential to salvation...trinity is not. See 1 John 1:1-3; 1 John 2:22-24; 1 John 4:9,10,14,15; 1 John 5:1-5, 9-13, 20; John 5:26,27,30; 17:3; Matt. 16:15-18. As for the holy Spirit, please consider carefully the following... Romans 8:9; 1 Cor. 8:6; Gal. 4:4-6; Eph. 4:6 Some supplementary questions: 1. If a non-trinitarian declares his doubts on that concept, yet maintains his faith in Jesus being the Son of God, why is Jesus's divinity brought into question? 2. Why is a concept or formula which arose in the 4th century considered a better means by which to ascribe divinity to Christ than the declaration of Peter, approved by God Himself, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God?" 3. Why is it so essential to make the Father and Son of equal ages in order to fully establish the divinity of Jesus particularly in light of Colossians 2:9? 4. Why can we not simply accept the Bible testimony regarding the one true God, instead of denying, reasoning, and teaching something contrary? 1 Cor 8:6...John 17:3....Ephesians 4:6.....1 Cor. 11:3....Eph. 1: 15-17.

Why do you insist on referring to the law of Moses? When God gave the tables of stone to Moses on Sinai what theological miracle changes the ownership of those laws from God to Moses? When we sin, do we go to Moses for forgiveness? When John describes sin as being the transgression of the law, did he mean Moses's law or God's? When we commit adultery, do we sin against Moses or God? When we kill do we offend Moses or God?

Indeed he did...heard them with his own ears. And spoke to Paul in person which conversations no doubt would have included such things as we are discussing today. Interesting that no where is it even suggested anywhere in any of James's or Paul's letters, or anyone else's for that matter, that the weekly Sabbath which Israel had honoured (sort of) for over 1000 years was suddenly an optional extra. What is also interesting is that no-one today can agree as to why the church doesn't keep Sabbath. There are as many views and theories as to why Sabbath is no longer obligatory as there are denominations. And none of those theories are to be found in scripture. What is even more interesting is that Jesus taught precisely the opposite. The very same Jesus you say James heard and followed. Matthew 5:17-19 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Now what law is Jesus referring to here? And what commandments is he meaning when he condemns those who teach others that they can break them? He informs us just a few verses later when He speaks of killing and adultery. Jesus is speaking of the moral law, to which the 4th commandment is a central tenet. It is that law James was referring to when he also referred to killing and adultery as being a part of that very same royal law (see James 2:11); so you are indeed correct, James listened to his Master and Lord and taught what Jesus taught. Thus your contention that they were talking about only NT commandments is a crock. Now of course I know you said that you weren't going to say anything more on that matter. Bury your head in the sand if you like, but this will not go away by your ignoring it. And it has everything to do with exhorting Christians who love Jesus. John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

You do realise do you not that James did not have the NT laid out before him that he would refer to as the 'word'? And that the commandments you refer to as those of the NT being the ones we must adhere to James would not have been familiar with? But he was familiar with the commandments of God as revealed to Israel. He called it the royal law. 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. James is not here talking about the ceremonial law, but the moral law of ten commandments. While the ten commandments are a part of the law of Moses, the ten commandments are more essentially the law of God, the royal law that if you break just one part of, you are guilty of transgressing the whole law. Let this not be given as reason to discard the law, but rather motivation to cleave to Jesus who only has the power to impart to us the strength and spirit necessary to obey...all the commandments. Including the 4th. On another note. The auto-immune defence system that comes to the fore every time someone mentions the Sabbath which immediately brings accusation of legalism against Sabbath keepers is a form of self deception. It is a revelation of a personal failure in either comprehending or even acknowledging the possibility that Sabbath keepers can and do obey God's 4th commandment because they recognise it as a part of that royal law that James refers to in which he says that if we break one point, we are guilty of breaking them all. They also fail to recognise the possibility that Sabbath keepers may be so out of love for their Saviour, and Sabbath keeping was a natural by-product of their relationship with Him.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.....". John 3:16. If God gave His Son, then it must be that He had a Son to give. We all know who the Son is...Jesus Christ. But Who is the God Who sent Him? Is He the same entity as the Son, or different? Is He the trinity? Did a trinity send a son? Is the Son the son of a trinity? One can get into quite the confusing muddle when attempting to harmonize all the conflicting trinitarian formulas and creeds. I think it best we simply accept what scripture teaches, and not step beyond what it reveals. God Almighty, Yahweh, the Father, gave His Son, Yeshua for the human race. The Son may correctly and rightly be worshipped and honored as God, for He is His Father's Son. Like Father, like Son. The Son is the express image of the person of the Father. The Son demonstrated all the loving merciful and compassionate attributes of the Father whilst on earth, thus He could say, "if ye have seen Me, ye have seen the Father". The Father Himself called His Son 'God'. Yet the Father and the Son are two distinct personalities. Independent, yet in perfect agreement on all things. In that sense, they are one. And as the letter to the Hebrews informs us, Jesus has inherited His Father's name. God. Yahweh. Thus it was His by divine right...in precisely the same way we inherit our own father's name. Yet the Son, as previous to His incarnation, shall in the end once again be in subjection to His God, His Father. This unquestioned superiority in rank as pertaining to the Father is not allowable within any trinitarian concept, yet is clearly revealed in scripture, both in Paul's writings in 1 Corinthians and in Jesus's own words "My Father is greater than I", and "I go to your God and My God", and the several occasions where He stated that He was sent by the Father. I think, however, because it is not presented anywhere in the Bible as such, we need to refrain from speaking of Jesus and the holy Spirit as 'God the Son' and 'God the holy Spirit'. Such titles are assumptions, and unbiblical.

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. 10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; 11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; 12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; 13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. 14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. 15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. 16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. 17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Yet have you not seen many who claim to be baptized in...walking in...filled with...and being led by the holy Spirit yet openly and secretly transgressing God's commandments? Does the Spirit contradict the law? Or does the Spirit bring one into harmony with the law? How do we know of a certainty that the Spirit we speak of is the holy one, and not a demon from hell guiding and leading people astray? Would the holy Spirit lead people away from, or toward obedience? Would a demon from hell lead a person into, or away from transgressing the law? The holy Spirit cannot be used as a replacement for God's own written word. It is God's word that He places above everything else.

I would add that although we may be aware of how unworthy we are, it is because of the contrast between ourselves and His utmost holiness that we would never conceive ourselves of being righteous. Yet in reality we are being changed. By beholding and abiding, we are being conformed into His image. But genuine meekness and humility would forbid us from even seeing that ourselves, let alone confessing such a state.

Agree with some of the above. One thing I disagree with is that we should strive to obey the law. If the holy Spirit should say to our hearts "hey bro, that ain't right. What you are doing is offensive to God and man, and is a transgression you need to repent of", then our reaction to that conviction is not to "try and do better", or to strive to keep the law next time temptation comes, but rather to do what the law was designed to do all along ..confess our utter need of a Savior and seek Him. I agree that the law is there to show us our limitations, therefore we must seek Him who can do for us what in and of ourselves is impossible. Not do away with the law by "nailing it to the cross", but doing precisely what Jesus did...exalting the law and making it honorable. We can do that also by abiding in that Vine and being fed with the same Spirit and the same strength and virtue that Christ received of His Father. Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. The irony is that the closer we come to Jesus, the more unworthy we recognise we are, and the more conscious we become of our shortcomings. Not only so, the more we become aware that we can not possibly be saved by our obedience. My dispute with shiloh is based on his suppositions and presumptions that just because one upholds the law as being holy, just, and good, then those doing so are automatically using it in order to be saved. Why cannot an already saved person uphold God's laws as being honorable without being attacked for it? That seems to me that the person doing the attacking has the issue with the law...not the one upholding it.

A rosebud can be perfect, though not yet fully grown. A bloom is also perfect...not more perfect, nor the bud less perfect, just different. Christians are perfect because they are in Christ, Who is perfect. Sinless perfection whilst in these mortal fleshly bodies is not possible, yet in a sense, we can cease from sin in this life if we have faith in the God who can make all things possible. Ceasing from sin is not akin to sinless perfection.

Must be pure....yes. But God offers us that purity as a gift. We don't earn it, work for it, deserve it, nor does it come from within, nor from our own strength of will or determination. It is offered as a gift to anyone who asks. Anyone who reaches out recognizing their need. The Bible calls it the righteousness of Christ, and as we come to God in faith and trust, He engraves our name on the palms of His hands accounting us as clean and forgiven in His sight. Also He offers us all the healing; physical, mental, and spiritual, that we need. Surrender to Him all your cares and frustrations and concerns, and trust Him to do what needs to be done. Keep praying...keep reading the Bible...keep fellowshiping with other believers, " and all things will work together for your good, because you love God and are called according to His purpose". Romans 8:28