ENOCH2010

Not necessarily (post#22). Also, some say Rev 4 is pre-trib rapture proof because it comes prior to Rev 6-18 describing the great tribulation. The church isn't mentioned between Rev 6-18. The big difference is there is no mention of a resurrection prior to Rev.20 and the second coming. Ergo no resurrection, no rapture prior to the second coming.

Yes it's saying the rapture/second coming is after the tribulation

Study Rev. chapter 20 and see if that is the resurrection you are speaking of.

Nope I meant just what I said, "the dead in Christ rise first," This means a resurrection has to happen, it is placed at the second coming of Christ, not 7 years earlier Yes,our bodies will get a total change to uncorruptable bodies and that change will take place when we are raptured.The souls who are in heaven now are waiting for their resurrected bodies. bopeep when does the Bible say that resurrection takes place, the resurrection where everybody will get their new body like the one Christ has?

Nope I meant just what I said, "the dead in Christ rise first," This means a resurrection has to happen, it is placed at the second coming of Christ, not 7 years earlier

Where is the resurrection that goes with you pre-trib rapture

Hi ENOCH2010, blessings! It's more complicated than just Rev 20. There's things that have to take place before the 1,000 year reign with Christ. There's more scripture, more details, more revelation to these events. I'm also not thinking pre-trib rapture, I'm thinking 5th seal rapture. Post#5. The complicated part is inventing another resurrection for a rapture that happens prior to the second coming

The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain will join them in the air. That is a picture of the rapture right? So lets look for a resurrection of the dead in Christ, it is described in Rev. chapter 20, happening at the second coming. For there to be a pre-trib rapture, you will have to add a pre-trib resurrection also because neither are in the Bible.

Same event, the first resurrection in Rev. chapter 20 is the first opportunity for a rapture and resurrection which happens at the second coming. The pre-trib crowd tries to say the rapture happens before the tribulation, for that to work they have to add a resurrection before the tribulation, but the Bible records the time of the first resurrection.

Some good answers above, lets give this a couple days to see what else is brought to light.

It is in the Bible that we will judge angels, what are the charges of the angels that we are to judge?

So by your theory that would put the end at 693 + 1335 = 2028

I am sure the pre-trib crowd will have another theory to explain this. Yep they add another resurrection for themselves, (before the first resurrection) the only problem with that is, it's not to be found in the Bible.

^ this one

The angel Michael

You can find who the beast is: in rev. chp. 16 and 17 When you realize who the beast is you will know who the antichrist will be. You will need to have a knowledge of history and religions to find the answers Why don't you just tell us so we don't have to do all the study

If the evil are taken away, what becomes of the ones that are left in your scenario? they enter the 1000 year reign So you believe they are the sheep that get separated from the goats? Then who are the saints that will rule and reign over them with Christ? Or, if you believe these ARE the saints, then who are the ones that they will rule over, the ones who will re-populate the earth? Also, who were the least of Christ' brothers that the sheep ministered to? It does not appear that you believe in a rapture. And what about the martyr's that are killed for refusing the mark of the beast, where do they come into play in your scenario? your right about that, there won't be any pre-trib rapture. That is totally a man made doctrine I agree with you about the pre-trib timing, but it does not appear that you believe in any rapture whatsoever, since your interpretation is that the evil ones are taken away instead. But what is your understanding of the ones who are left? The rapture and the second coming are the same event. The Lord is coming back to set up His Kingdom on this Earth, the ones left will join the Lord in his Kingdom So how do you understand our gathering in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air? It happens just like the Bible says, we meet the Lord in the air. We then make our way to Bozrah and then to the Mt of Olives But you said the evil ones were taken, ie, two will be in the field, one is taken, the other is left...Two women grinding at the mill, one is taken, the other is left???? Then Christ repeatedly says no one knows the day and the hour and to be ready, but you say these are the evil ones?? The ones taken are the evil ones, they are gathered and burned. The righteous go with the Lord. I am ready, I got ready 50 years ago, and I still won't know the day or hour until that day is upon us. I think you're really getting ahead of yourself in this prophecy. There's nothing in here to indicate that the evil ones are either taken or burned. You create a problem when you start adding the wheat and tares into this mix. The wheat and tares would fit much better with the sheep and goats at the end of Matt. 25, which is the end of the age. That is also the second coming, and when He will judge the nations, but it is vitally important to know that judgment first begins with the house of the Lord (1 Pet. 4:17). In Matt. 24 we see Christ gathering His elect, telling His followers that they must be ready, followed by several parables that have nothing whatsoever to do with the physical second coming to the earth, but everything to do with the rapture. This is all about the judgment of His servants first; and then He will judge the survivors of the nations afterward, which will determine who will enter the millennial kingdom. (See my comments in post #84) The pre-tribbers are the ones getting ahead of themselves. The rapture and second coming are the same event, not 2 events separated by 7 years.

If the evil are taken away, what becomes of the ones that are left in your scenario? they enter the 1000 year reign So you believe they are the sheep that get separated from the goats? Then who are the saints that will rule and reign over them with Christ? Or, if you believe these ARE the saints, then who are the ones that they will rule over, the ones who will re-populate the earth? Also, who were the least of Christ' brothers that the sheep ministered to? It does not appear that you believe in a rapture. And what about the martyr's that are killed for refusing the mark of the beast, where do they come into play in your scenario? your right about that, there won't be any pre-trib rapture. That is totally a man made doctrine I agree with you about the pre-trib timing, but it does not appear that you believe in any rapture whatsoever, since your interpretation is that the evil ones are taken away instead. But what is your understanding of the ones who are left? The rapture and the second coming are the same event. The Lord is coming back to set up His Kingdom on this Earth, the ones left will join the Lord in his Kingdom So how do you understand our gathering in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air? It happens just like the Bible says, we meet the Lord in the air. We then make our way to Bozrah and then to the Mt of Olives But you said the evil ones were taken, ie, two will be in the field, one is taken, the other is left...Two women grinding at the mill, one is taken, the other is left???? Then Christ repeatedly says no one knows the day and the hour and to be ready, but you say these are the evil ones?? The ones taken are the evil ones, they are gathered and burned. The righteous go with the Lord. I am ready, I got ready 50 years ago, and I still won't know the day or hour until that day is upon us.

If the evil are taken away, what becomes of the ones that are left in your scenario? they enter the 1000 year reign So you believe they are the sheep that get separated from the goats? Then who are the saints that will rule and reign over them with Christ? Or, if you believe these ARE the saints, then who are the ones that they will rule over, the ones who will re-populate the earth? Also, who were the least of Christ' brothers that the sheep ministered to? It does not appear that you believe in a rapture. And what about the martyr's that are killed for refusing the mark of the beast, where do they come into play in your scenario? your right about that, there won't be any pre-trib rapture. That is totally a man made doctrine I agree with you about the pre-trib timing, but it does not appear that you believe in any rapture whatsoever, since your interpretation is that the evil ones are taken away instead. But what is your understanding of the ones who are left? The rapture and the second coming are the same event. The Lord is coming back to set up His Kingdom on this Earth, the ones left will join the Lord in his Kingdom So how do you understand our gathering in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air? It happens just like the Bible says, we meet the Lord in the air. We then make our way to Bozrah and then to the Mt of Olives

If the evil are taken away, what becomes of the ones that are left in your scenario? they enter the 1000 year reign So you believe they are the sheep that get separated from the goats? Then who are the saints that will rule and reign over them with Christ? Or, if you believe these ARE the saints, then who are the ones that they will rule over, the ones who will re-populate the earth? Also, who were the least of Christ' brothers that the sheep ministered to? It does not appear that you believe in a rapture. And what about the martyr's that are killed for refusing the mark of the beast, where do they come into play in your scenario? your right about that, there won't be any pre-trib rapture. That is totally a man made doctrine I agree with you about the pre-trib timing, but it does not appear that you believe in any rapture whatsoever, since your interpretation is that the evil ones are taken away instead. But what is your understanding of the ones who are left? The rapture and the second coming are the same event. The Lord is coming back to set up His Kingdom on this Earth, the ones left will join the Lord in his Kingdom

If the evil are taken away, what becomes of the ones that are left in your scenario? they enter the 1000 year reign So you believe they are the sheep that get separated from the goats? Then who are the saints that will rule and reign over them with Christ? Or, if you believe these ARE the saints, then who are the ones that they will rule over, the ones who will re-populate the earth? Also, who were the least of Christ' brothers that the sheep ministered to? It does not appear that you believe in a rapture. And what about the martyr's that are killed for refusing the mark of the beast, where do they come into play in your scenario? your right about that, there won't be any pre-trib rapture. That is totally a man made doctrine

Enoch Those in the ark ascended on high, they rode out the flood. Those left on earth all died. Lot removed himself from Sodom and Gomorrah; Those who were left there all died. The ten virgins; the wise five were taken, and the foolish five were left as Christ did not know them. Two men are in the field, one is taken the other is left. Two women are grinding, one is taken, the other is left. John 14:3 - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going. It appears that Christ always takes the righteous. In Christ Montana Marv Marv how do you interpret the wheat and tares parable, The Lord said to let them grow together until harvest time then the tares are gathered and burned before the wheat is collected

If the evil are taken away, what becomes of the ones that are left in your scenario? they enter the 1000 year reign

Marv when are you going to understand the scripture about Noah and being taken away, that scripture isn't about a rapture of the bride, the ones taken away are the ones that were taken away by the flood. That's the way it will be with the coming of the Son of Man, the ones taken are the evil ones, taken to where the eagles are gathered to be the main coarse for dinner.

Actually, I'm NOT a "pre-tribber," although I am premillennial. I'm a POST-tribber, about as POST-trib as one can get! I believe that we are CURRENTLY in the tribulation and have been since 30 A.D! The Jews, including those who were followers of the true Messiah, were given a 40-year period to prepare for the worst, but it kicked into high gear in 70 A.D. and has been going on - off and on - since then! I believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") is NOT the same thing as the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9:27. Instead, I believe that the first half of the seventieth Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el - begun roughly in 26 A.D. and ended in 30 A.D. (a three-and-a-half-year period). The second half of the seventieth Seven will also be His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el, but that won't begin UNTIL AFTER HE ARRIVES, and His arrival comes immediately after the end of the tribulation! I DO believe that the tribulation will crescendo before His arrival, but it is impossible (in my opinion) to pin it down to x number of years! Secondly, I haven't found a thing in the Scriptures that doesn't fit into my "theology" ever since I kicked OUT my theology (which WAS pre-trib, by the way) and began re-buliding it from SCRATCH directly from the Scriptures back in 1977-8 when I was in my early 20's! I've learned quite a bit since then, and I'll admit I don't know it all, yet. There's much yet to learn, but by being able to throw everything out, I've been able to open myself to possibilities others are not willing to see, let alone consider! So, please. Don't think you've got me "figured out" and pigeon-hole me into something I'm not! Roy I have read enough of your posts to know that you are not a pre-triber, my comment was about the person you were talking to. Lamad is a hard core pre-triber, I have offered the truth to him several times, but he won't listen. I hold a lot of the same beliefs concerning the end times as you do Roy, the only view of the end times that answers all my questions is the post-trib view. If the pre-tribers would admit that the first resurrection happens at the second coming like the Bible says, they would forget the left behind series and prepare for the second coming of the Lord. Ha ha ha! Enoch, you are absolutely comical at times! Yes, I am a hard core pretriber...you said that right! But WHY? It is because GOD is a hard core pretribber! The truth of scripture is pretrib. I had showed time and again that "first" resurrection means CHIEF resurrection, and that Jesus was the firstfruits of that same resurrection, but it is YOU who ignore truth. It is SO SIMPLE: there are two resurrections, one for the just and one for the unjust. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Anyone without preconceptions can undertstand that Jesus rose from the dead as the VERY FIRST to get a resurrection body. (that is what "first" of chief resurrection is all about. We know Jesus and Peter rose people from the dead, but NOT into resurrection bodies! There is NO TIMING GIVEN to the "first resurrection." That is something you assume, incorrectly. All the righteous will be a part of this first or chief resurrection, which started with Jesus. If you would really study the rapture scriptures from Paul, the ONLY writer of the New Testament who received revelation on the rapture, you too would be pretrib. If you try to find the rapture of the church in other places, you and all others will end up confused (which is seems you are.) The rapture is NOT IN Revelation. Especially not in chapter 20. That is totally mans reasoning. The rapture is not found in the gospels; again man's reasoning. Anyone would get confused of they looked for the rapture of the church, during the Old Covenant scriptures! It is not there. Yes, there are gatherings, but NOt the rapture. I have one question for you; are you really following this verse - or just ignoring it because it does not fit your theory? Luk. 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it? Lamad Lamad the verse you would do well to try and understand is Blessed and Holy are the ones included in the first resurrection, Rev.20 . The Bible says Only 2 resurrections of a massive amount of bodies remain in our future, they are both described in Rev. 20, the rapture has to be involved with the one called the first resurrection, not at some fantasy resurrection not mentioned in the Bible. It doesn't matter how much the pre-tribbers try and spin the Bible passages into something that tickles the ear, the fact remains, the first resurrection is when the rapture happens, not anytime pre-trib. And there can be only 1 first, not a dozen firsts and 1 second. Why is this so hard for you to understand? There is one resurrection for the righteous, and one for the unrighteous. That is as plain as day. What you are missing is that Jesus was the VERY FIRST ONE to be resurrected in the "first resurrection." Those that rose with Him from the Old Covenant were secondfruits, theirfruits, fourthfruits, etc. of the SAME first resurrection. Soon the Dead in Christ will become fruits of that same "first resurrection" just before the 70th week begins. After that the 144,000 will become a part of it, around the midpoint of the 70th week. Then at the 7th vial, the Old Testament saints rise, and they also will be a part of the "first resurrection." Perhaps at the same time, those beheaded during the week will be resurrected. They too are a part of the "first resurrection." It is the resurrection for the righteous. But it comes in WAVES. Your mistake? Trying to pin down the "first resurrection" to a time. Jesus was the FIRST human in the "first resurrection." There is no "fantasy" time for the rapture, there is PAUL's time. If you miss it, and get left behind, you have only yourself to blame, for Paul wrote it very clearly. A 5th grader could get it, because they would read with no preconceptions. Paul's rapture comes as the TRIGGER for the signs of the Day as is written at the 6th seal. John saw the raptured church in heaven shortely thereafter in Chapter 7. End of story, case closed. God is pretrib. If you are not, you are outside of what God believes. Lamad The fantasy you are claiming isn't the rapture Lamad. The fantasy is that there will be a dozen or so first resurrections when the Bible says there will be only 1 and the Bible plainly says it will be at the second coming of the Lord. If the pre-tribbers would receive the Bible for what it says, not for what they wish it said, there wouldn't be so much confusion coming from the pulpit. Sorry, but the word of God does NOT say there will be only ONE (1) resurrection - happening at one moment in time! That is where you have missed it big time. If you could read Greek, you would know it does not mean there is only single moment for the chief resurrection. Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead with a resurrection body? If there is only ONE resurrection from flesh and blood into a resurrection body, then Jesus had to be a part of it, by process of elimination: you say there was NO OTHER. In your case then, Jesus never rose. Go to Blueletter bible, and look up the Greek word translated as "first." You will see it has DIFFERENT meanings. If you understand ANYTHING about the end times, you know there are different times for different resurrections. For example, the 144000 are seen on earth being sealed, and the next time they are seen around the throne in heaven. They were resurrected. Paul's rapture/resurrection comes as the trigger for the Day of the Lord, which John tells us begins LONG before your "first" resurrection. Do you understand, you are basing your false theory on ONE WORD? And in doing this, are ignoring many verses that prove your theory wrong. You can be wrong if you want to be. On the other hand, you can study and meditate on Paul's rapture until you understand what he wrote. It is impossible to fit what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 into a posttrib rapture. YOu still did not answer the question: ARe you praying to be counted worthy to escape? Or are you in rebellion to this verse because you cannot believe it? Read it again: Luke 21:36. Since you did not answer, I assume you are in rebellion against this verse, because it simply does not fit your theory. Lamad You say the Bible doesn't say only 1 first resurrection, how can you put into print a lie like that. Lets count together shall we, Rev.20 says blessed and holy are the ones that take part in The first resurrection. Did you notice the word the , according to you that word should be those. That's 1 resurrection, it happens at the second coming of the Lord. The reason it happens at the second coming is, that way all the people who have died in the Lord can be resurrected at the same time, with your theory you need a dozen little resurrections scattered out over time from 2000 years ago until whenever the Lord returns. The biggest problem with your theory is, it's not in the Bible, my view is there for everybody to read with their own eyes. The other resurrection is called the second resurrection, how many of the second resurrections do you say they are?