taylor30

AMEN TO THAT :) Did you know Kenneth Copeland was one of benny Hinn's mentors? They both went to kenneth hagan's school, which has produced a VAST majority of false teachers we see today.

Its quite ironic. If there is a cross around the atheists claim thats an endorsement of religion. But if the cross is removed and nothing is there, that's an endorsement of the RELIGION of athiesm. No matter what, SOMETHING will be endorsed.

I agree. If BOTH parties agree to it, there should be no problem. As long as they are NOT FORCING others who don't hold to those beliefs to submit to religious courts. 1 COR is a great example of GOD himself telling us NOT to take eachother to unbelievers courts and that we should settle matters ourselves.

It may be technically in the constitution, but freedom of religion doesn't REALLY exist anymore ( unless your muslim ).

I see people saying this all the time. Exactly how many churches do you attend? I take it that you have heard every preacher in America preach? Because I know plenty that speak out against sin, including sexual sin, including myself. Your sarcasm is not required. I obviously have not heard EVERY preacher and I didn;t claim to. I said I have not heard any preachers mention it. Maybe you can tell me some that do speak against it, IF you can do it with Love. I get enough sarcasm from people who don't follow God.

i don't know the answers to that but I totally agree with your last comment. It seems people are determined to put themselves on pedestals. If we truely believ all people are EQUAL, then it should be acceptable to greet a King or President the same as a friend or stranger. A smile and maybe handshake.

That's not the point. You started this by stating in no uncertain terms that giving to a church was wrong, and you continue to do this in subsequent posts in this thread. What people are trying to tell you is that they feel the opposite to a large degree. I don't only tithe, but also bless those in need, not of the church, whenever I can. My wife and I have a mission to do "random acts of kindness", as well as tithing. Have you actually READ my posts? I NEVER said its wrong to give to a church. I said that I don't do it for several reasons. Please don't put words in my mouth. And if you wish to incorrectly judge me like others have, go right on ahead. God will deal with you on his timing.

Is there a website that shows this. I don't doubt you but I would like to read more about it.

I do understand your sentiments yet when we give we are to give and allow God to direct where it goes. Do you ever give money to someone homeless and then tell them where they can spend the money or do you allow God to direct it? We are to give to our fellowships thats what the tithing system was set up for, to give to the temple who then distributes to the where God directed it. Sure there are many obvious places where ones money doesnt seem to be going where its needed, many of the WOF, prosperity gospels and such, we need to have discretion on if we should even be involved with those things. I am not a huge fan of passing the offering plate and feel that it might be best to leave a box or basket where offerings are made. But understand that this happens usually for convience sake and nothing more. And yes its fine to give to other charities also but we should not forget our own pastors, needy, etc, within our own community or fellowship. If you look at the model given to Israel as tithes and it is from the commandments given to Israel where it comes from, we see giving for certain things. The actual sacrifices fed not only the priests but their entire families, then there are the tithes to the widows and orphans, etc. How do you support your fellowship unless you give some tithes to them? I think what we read about Stephen is a good one and shows us exactly how we are to give, with a free will offering, they gather all things at the temple then send them out to the needy. We are told put our offerings in the store house so that there would be food for all in His house. Give where you feel the need is greatest yet dont neglect those that are sitting next to you in our fellowship either. We now give all our offerings to our fellowship, we know exactly where our offering are going. If you have dont know where yours are going I would ask for a break down of finances from your church. shalom, Mizz That is not a fair comparison. The tabernacle/temple/priesthood of the OT is not even close to the same as modern pastors/churches. The last church I attended showed they make about 10 MILLION a year off of tithes and offerings. Then they claimed half of that went to salaries. The pastor made $300,000 a year. Are you seriously going to tell me that church needs my measly offering? I don't think so. Besides, how do you know God DIDN'T tell me to give my money to something other than the church? I don't even use any services my church offers so I certainly am not indebted to give them my money. As I said in an earlier post, I see the problems in society and my own neighborhood. I think I am a better judge of where my money should go than the local pastor. Just my opinion.

If you are a member of a good church and are involved in all it's activities in faithful service you know exactly where your tithe or offering is going. I can even designate where my offering should go. And as a matter of interest, we meet in a free venue and our pastor does not draw a salary. He supports himself and his family from investments in property he sold to become a full time pastor. Our elders and leadership team meet to discuss where the money is best used to bless, and it is no secret, the church books are open for anyone in the congregation to read. Is there a passage of scripture where it says our money is to go ONLY to a church? If so, please show me. If not, why is everyone trying so hard to convince me that giving to anything but a church is wrong. Everyone who has answered me ( and there has been about 5 or so ) seems far more concerned about the fact I don't give to a church than the fact give at all. You would think a person who gives would be told good things, but apparently a tithe or offering is no good if the money goes to anyone except the pastor. The pastor at the last church I went to made $300,000 a year. No wonder so many people feel "called" to the ministry today.

There is the bow of respect and the bow of worship. There's a difference. Guess that depends on how you look at it. Personally I see a bow as FAR MORE than respect. Bow for me is something worship like and I will not bow to any man. It would violate my conscience to do so.

What? What do you mean 'biweekly'? OOPS. My spell checker is messing with me. I don't usually read my posts before I post because I assume what I write is what will show up. What I meant to say instead of biweekly is "bow". Don't know how I messed that up so bad.

Since I believe (for Christians) all giving should be between the giver and the Lord, I am not directing this at you personally - only at the point you are making. I feel rather strongly about it - because I believe the Lord ordained the local church - and the local church could not function if every member and attendee had the attitude not to give (because they are potentially corrupt.) I have in the past (not currently) served as treasurer in the church I currently attend. I believe accountability is the best defense against human corruption. In other words, I could only write and sign checks for board approved expenses. And, in the larger realm, our local church board was accountable to the District. And the District is accountable to the National Headquarters. And so on. Accountability is not a perfect system (no system created by man is), but it works pretty well. Just my $0.02 Blessings! -Ed I can understand your point. But let me put it this way. OPTION # 1. I can give to a church or charity and HOPE my hard earned offering is not misused or mishandled. OPTION # 2. I can give my money and offering to an area where the church doesn't reach and I can KNOW 100% my money is nite being mishandled or misused. I don't think I need to say which option is clearly better. Also, I have begged the church for help when I really needed it and I was turned away. The church doesn't need my money and God can show me better places to put it. Again, if you truly are seeking God's guidance and the Holy Spirit's direction in your giving, then I cannot criticize you one way or the other. That is between you and the Lord. But the local church - which has (or should have) a ministry of spreading God's Word in addition to charity - could not exist if everyone had the same opinion you hold. And the New Testament writer of Hebrews in 10:24-25 seems to think the local church has a purpose: I am truly sorry to hear that you were turned away by the church when you needed help. Without knowing all the circumstances, it's probably not proper for me to comment further. I can share with you how our local church handles similar situations, however. First of all, we are a small church. (less than 50 members, and average Sunday Morning service of between 70-80). We are located in an economically depressed area. But even so, we are blessed by the fact that most of our members DO tithe (give 10 percent), which allows us to stay current on our bills, pay the pastor and provide him a place to live, help support the work of missionaries worldwide, and even keep and maintain a "benevolence" fund. When we become aware of needs, we give what we can out of that fund (it has to go before the Board for accountability). Recently we were able to provide a $200 credit at a local grocery store for a family dealing with illness and unemployment. In another case, we were able to provide a $50 tank of gas for someone dealing with taking a parent back and forth to the hospital for chemo treatments. These are just two examples - there have been others. Are these life changing amounts of money we are able to give? No - of course not. Nor are they intended to be. They are there just to get someone through a difficult time - to show love and support for the local church body. In your criticisms, you painted "the church" with a rather broad brush in calling it corrupt. So that is why I felt the need to respond as I did. The other side of the coin, if you will. Blessings! -Ed I appreciate your words. It sounds like your small church is a good one and doing what it is supposed to. However it is not my desire to discourage people from giving to churches as it appears that is what people think I said. I will never tell someone not to give to church. My only point was that the church is not the ONLY place to give. Christians seem to have the idea that the church is THE place to give. Except there is no command for Christians to give to churches. Paul only told people to be generous givers, he didn't say where they had to do it. Also, the very concept of a public offering has always rubbed me wrong. We are supposed to be humble and give in secret. We can't do that with everyone looking to see how much we put in the plate. I am glad you admitted you can't really judge, of course that concept is lost on most Christians. I generally have a bad reputation among Christians because I refuse to put anything in the plate. I DO give, but I don't let anyone see it. I have no doubt that God will reward me for it, but that doesn't help now when my so called "Christian" brothers and sisters think I am selfish and greedy. I am only saying its ok to give to places other than the church and to ask my Christian associates reading this to be slow to judge your fellow believer because they may be doing incredible good that you have no knowledge of. GOD BLESS.

The schools need to grow a backbone and stop worrying about whether they will be sued for every little thing they do. Groups like the ACLU have put a mighty fear in the education system. People will sue for anything nowadays. The only people who don't bring lawsuits are Christians and because of that the schools have no problem trampling over Christian rights. As long as Christians are complacent, you better prepare and expect things to keep getting MUCH worse.

I think you are right. I have heard this as the most common source of Friday the 13th. I also have heard many different sources on it. I am certain the Templars are the origin of the day. Sad story indeed.

I might use the proper title, but I will biweekly to NO ONE except Jesus.

Since I believe (for Christians) all giving should be between the giver and the Lord, I am not directing this at you personally - only at the point you are making. I feel rather strongly about it - because I believe the Lord ordained the local church - and the local church could not function if every member and attendee had the attitude not to give (because they are potentially corrupt.) I have in the past (not currently) served as treasurer in the church I currently attend. I believe accountability is the best defense against human corruption. In other words, I could only write and sign checks for board approved expenses. And, in the larger realm, our local church board was accountable to the District. And the District is accountable to the National Headquarters. And so on. Accountability is not a perfect system (no system created by man is), but it works pretty well. Just my $0.02 Blessings! -Ed I can understand your point. But let me put it this way. OPTION # 1. I can give to a church or charity and HOPE my hard earned offering is not misused or mishandled. OPTION # 2. I can give my money and offering to an area where the church doesn't reach and I can KNOW 100% my money is nite being mishandled or misused. I don't think I need to say which option is clearly better. Also, I have begged the church for help when I really needed it and I was turned away. The church doesn't need my money and God can show me better places to put it.

Why do you attend a church you don't trust? For instance my church does a comprehensive breakdown of our finances once a year, including where every cent goes, bills,etc. I don't trust ANY church. Churches are run by fallible man and are potentially corrupt. Even IF a church accounted for every cent, it wouldn't matter to me. I believe I know better than an organization where my money should go.

And aren't the Arabs, via the Egyptians, through Ishmael descendants of Ham one of Noah's sons? Egypt=Put=Ham I always thought. I don't know where the Egyptians come from but both Jews and Arabs came through Abraham. Therefore Jews and Arabs are related which makes the middle east fighting even worse. Most Arabs and Muslims will claim they can be traced back to 1 of the 12 sons of Shark who God even said would become nations. Yes both came from Abraham but only one son was accepted as first born by God. Solomon said it best, theres nothing new under the sun, we read of this ancient conflict through out bible history and so much of prophecy is wrapped up in it all. How true. I asked Muslims about this and you know what I was told? They said God actually made the promise to Ishmael and the Jews changed it when it was written. This is where they get some of their justification.

Good wording. That's what I was trying to say.

Certain churches. Certain churches with Liberal theology. By and large these churches that are pushing very hard to normalize homosexuality are not Protestant, Evangelical, and Conservative churches. You can't paint all churches with the same broad brush. I must disagree. I don't see ANY preachers talking about this issue and when an instance appears in the church it seems great effort is taken to keep it quiet. I attend an evangelical church and I have never heard them talk about sexual sin. I think its more common than you would like to believe.

And aren't the Arabs, via the Egyptians, through Ishmael descendants of Ham one of Noah's sons? Egypt=Put=Ham I always thought. I don't know where the Egyptians come from but both Jews and Arabs came through Abraham. Therefore Jews and Arabs are related which makes the middle east fighting even worse. Most Arabs and Muslims will claim they can be traced back to 1 of the 12 sons of Shark who God even said would become nations.

No, that is not the problem. You don't have people "caught up" in these sins trying to say that they are acceptable in Gods's eyes. You have a small group of people, mostly homosexual themselves, trying to tell other Christians that the behavior is ok. When was the last time you heard a Christian trying to justify adultery? Sadly I actually have heard MANY Christians justify adultery, fornication, and homosexuality. Sadly the church has accepted MANY sins today. It is not a small group of people.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but after reading all these posts I seem to see only 1 answer. Let Jesus fill you and end loneliness. If this were really true, then I suppose I can walk around and simply tell all lonely people " Just kettle Jesus make you happy". These are the answers I received so I suppose I can start saying that to others. So from now on when I see someone about to kill himself or someone in utter despair or someone who feels completely broken, I will just tell them to let Jesus make them happy. I won't need to offer my friendship or support since Jesus is enough. If this seems crewl to any of you, just remember that many of you said the sake thing to me.

The first amendment or separation of church and state as some call it PROHIBITS the government from telling the church how to operate or requiring it to do certain things that violate its beliefs. Yet again Obama himself is unconstitutional. We should join this fight. Let us NOT allow unbelievers to silence the church and let us pray the church will choose God over man.