Sevenseas

1. Not if a person does not have the faith to accept what the Bible clearly states. I've never 'seen' God...yet by faith I believe and so it is regarding the spiritual gifts He gives. I may have a broader experience with regards to who does and who does not speak in tongues because you are simply and definatley wrong to state that there is a lack of gifts in churches that are not Pentecostal or Charasmatic. My background is Brethern and it was during my 15 years growing up in that church that I was saved at the age of 5 and then filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues at the age of 18. Further, I have known Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterian and others who speak in tongues. God is not aware of boundaries or denominations and He fills those who hunger and thirst after Him IN SPITE of those who wish to control His outpouring and His gracious gift of His Spirit. He does not FORCE Himself on anyone who does not ask, so that would be an indicator when there is a LACK of His Spirit in a church. 2. In some instances most definately and I have no reason to doubt some that state they have actually had this experience on the mission field. However, each individual may still pray or worship in tongues as there is both the 'gift' as listed along with teacher etc and the infilling of the Holy Spirit for POWER to live the Christian life.... as Christ described when addressing the apostles. but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." Acts 1:8 3. Well, while I would agree that forcing or insisting is not a biblical injunction, it is not uncommon or wrong to pray that another would receive the Holy Spirit as a separate event from salvation as they are not the same. As follows: While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit whena you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tonguesb and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all. 4. Yes, those who have a legalistic approach and forbid to speak in tongues and insist it is no longer a gift seem to also employ the gift of silencing women while the Bible plainly speaks of women prophysing in church by the Holy Spirit. Personally, I find it odd and quite contradictory that while all the gifts are ignored ESPECIALLY the gift of tongues and praying in tongues, that those who wish to do away with the Holy Spirit being personally involved in our lives ALSO insist that women should nonetheless be silent as a general rule even though no such rule exists. They take instructions to a specific situation (Corinth) and apply it world and centry wide. I have seen enough men act disorderly and inappropriately in church to advise them to follow their own advice to women unless they follow the decently and in order advice given by Paul. God does not control women and neither should men. The Holy Spirit is given to each to enable us to exercise self control...however, due to the lack of adherence to biblical instructions there are many things being done today supposedly in the name of God that really are not fitting to be called such. 5. There is not switch. There are TWO DIFFERENT things going on and each has been carefully covered and referenced in THIS VERY THREAD 6. Was Paul referring to the gift of tongues or to the personal infilling of the Holy Spirit as a separate event AFTER salvation? It would appear that Paul actually had this to say as well: Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. I Cor. 14:5 TWO separate things referenced in this verse as well...both the gift of tongues with interpretation and the personal edification exampled in praying in tongues.

You know, that was answered by Qnts in post 32. You responded by telling her that what she posted was not true. As follows (post 33) You see, the problem for you shiloh, is that you simply do not believe what is in front of your eyes. Nonetheless, it appears your claim (which you do not back up) is wrong. The Greek word actually used in I Corinthians 14:2 and referred to in the response that Qnts gave is not the same as elsewhere referring to known tongues. You state that it is the same word used elsewhere to indicate a known tongue yet it appears that statement is simply unsubstantiated...both literally on your part, and practically when someone bothers to check it out. Is every translation wrong then? Everybody but those who are cessationists got it wrong? You don't believe. That's all that is going on here. γλώσσῃ (glōssē) — 7 Occurrences 1 Corinthians 14:2 N-DFS International Version For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. New Living Translation For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don't understand what I am saying. English Standard Version For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. New American Standard Bible For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. King James Bible For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. Holman Christian Standard Bible For if I pray in another language, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. International Standard Version For if I pray in a foreign language, my spirit prays but my mind is not productive. NET Bible If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive. Aramaic Bible in Plain English For if I should pray in languages, my spirit is praying, but my understanding is unfruitful. King James 2000 Bible For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. American King James Version For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. American Standard Version For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. Douay-Rheims Bible For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is without fruit. Darby Bible Translation For if I pray with a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. English Revised Version For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. Webster's Bible Translation For if I pray in an unknown language, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. Weymouth New Testament For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is barren. World English Bible For if I pray in another language, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. Young's Literal Translation for if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit doth pray, and my understanding is unfruitful .

Well then why bother to mention it. Let's look at that. You are basically doing what you claim others do regarding your posts when they disagree. You are ignoring what the passage is actually saying in order to make a point that you believe that is not scriptural. The teaching that we already have perfect and that perfect is the Bible, is incorrect. First of all, the Bible has not arrived or come...Paul is obviously speaking of the fullfillment of prophecy and the return of Christ and God's everlasting kingdom. Right, yet in the next breath you state Paul is correcting the misuse of said gifts. I find this a curious viewpoint. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. The only possible way that a person can conclude that the gifts are no longer in operation is if they CHOOSE to ignore the bolded sentences above because they don't fit in with their theology. Man's theology will always state this or that is no longer valid....or that does not apply today...or we don't need the gifts anymore. But that is not what God says. and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. Romans 5:5 We can only receive God's love through His Spirit....the Holy Spirit...who is given to us by God. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would return...in His place as it was time for Him to return to the Father. So, when Paul is speaking about love in I Corinthians he is most assuredly doing so in the power of the Holy Spirit and filled with the knowledge of God's love through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. To insist this is not so, is to reveal, perhaps, that one has not experienced what Paul is writing about here and having no knowledge of that experience or actual way of life, the conclusion is reached that we simply come to knowledge through the written word and no longer appreciate or even believe, that the very life of Christ through God's Spirit can fill us today and create the experience of knowing that Paul addresses...though in part, it is indeed the hope we have and that is addressed as one of the three things that remain. Paul is contrasting the misuse of gifts with that which is perfect...God's love....ALL gifts should, ideally, operate through love...which of course is not what many exhibit today. It is God's love that holds back the final curtain and there is a vast diffeence between operating in love for one another and operating from doctrine only. You cannot have this without accepting the Holy Spirit. And one who does not accept the Holy Spirit, not at rebirth because that is not what is being discussed and nowhere does scripture state you must speak in tongues to be saved, will simply not experience what some of us are talking about here or for that matter, what Paul is actually writing about. You don't dissect the Holy Spirit and no one tells Him what to do. IMO, there is a thin line between teaching there are no more spiritual gifts and tongues has ceased and actually refusing the Holy Spirit. But you know, I leave that one with God because juding the heart of another person is not my place. Oh but it does. Those who teach otherwise have resolved their conflict by simply denying it....to no avail however, because it is ongoing and no one can stop it. The Holy Spirit searches our hearts and He knows who is hungry enough to ask because they believe there must be more. Ours should be a spiritual life and not just a matter of getting our doctrine correct...mind you, all of what I state is IN the Bible The false teaching is denying the infilling of the Holy Spirit and allowing God to disperse HIS gifts as HE sees fit for the good of the Body of Christ. It's a serious issue and may one day mean the difference between being able to stand or falling. I know I cannot live without the Holy Spirit even on a day to day basis. The Holy Spirit is a person and does not operate outside the will of God. If people are deceived and misuse the gifts for their own glorification, they have their reward.

If you speak in tongues, then you also pray in tongues and you do not need to pray in tongues to pray according the will of God However, I am sure this will always be debated as long as there are those who insist the gifts are no longer in operation, so no surprises there I well aware of abuse but IMO, but that is now a common thing with regards to just about anything biblical...including salvation and how people interpret it...ie: no noe goes to hell I guess that is of particular reference to the Day of Pentecost, but that is not really how it works. In prayer, one can pray in tongues and I often have and while it does not happen every time, I often have the impression in my mind of what I am praying for...or I will be shown something which when it occurs, I will be equipped to handle it as I have been shown it before hand The Holy Spirit does not force anyone to ask for the gifts but it certainly is biblical to ask. In fact, Paul instructs us to desire them... Again, is there abuse? You betcha.....but I would not want to walk through this world without the benefit of being able to speak in tongues as I have on many occasions and have received insight on situations I know I would not have understood without that gift in operation. Doubters gotta doubt I suppose...

if you wash your remote, does it make for clean programming?

I was gong to say what Shiloh already said. Could very well be age. I have experience with this type of thing as well. Don't take a defensive postion...you can always say you would be glad to help her find her 'stolen' things...no use stating you are innocent... I know its not easy

So whenever anyone goes to pray they automatically are praying according to the will of God and that is what praying in the Spirit means? No amount of bleach is going to whitewash what the Bible is actually saying Praying in your native tongue IN the Spirit is absolutely possible but only AFTER you have ascertained the will of God ACCORDING to the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth...that is, all the revealed truth of God expressed in the written word. The Holy Spirit enlightens our minds and our understanding and leads us according to the will of God. Some people think that those who speak or pray in tongues in their private life, according to the biblical instructions, have given themselves over to demons or are just blabbering. I know both sides of the coin as I was raised in a church where this subject was forbidden but as it is in the Bible, I thought it would be a great idea to ask God to be filled with His Spirit...and He did so. This is not about salvation...it is about the spiritual gifts. Those who do not believe in the validity of the gifts for whatever reason as being applicable to the current age, seem quick to respond in the negative . I would like to personally assure you that God will not force this gift on you nor should anyone else.

Sometimes I read a thread and ................................................................ just look for the exit

Argh...I know what you are talking about...living on the East coast, currently, in Nova Scotia, we can have so much gray weather in winter you forget what color the sky is...and plenty of fog rolling in with the tide (close to the Bay of Fundy) Glad you are finally 'seeing the light' We actually have a cloudless and brilliant blue sky today and about 4 feet of snow... The ash does have an effect...it also gives glorious color to sunsets thousands of miles away

No. The chocolates cancel that. Yes just like if you break them in half the calories fall out..... ooooo! I didn't know that...how exciting...

I can agree with learning about the OT and what God commanded the Israelites to do. I cannot agree to returning to those customs. Jesus ate the Passover meal with His disciples before His crucifixion. I would hope that we understand the final Passover lamb has been sacrficed so I would definately say no to returning to celebrating things that have been done away with I respect having an understanding and knowledge of OT feasts, celebrations, sacrifices etc especially because of how they tie into the NT and define a better understanding of the NT I belonged to a Messianic congregation some years back and they did not celebrate Passover...but I am sure variations exist

No. The chocolates cancel that.

no, you are not...some people pray out of force of habit...if you have a truly thankful heart, perhaps that is what counts you brought up a good question though and as usual, some have taken it to the nth degree We are told to give thanks In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. I Thess 5:18 I don't think this verse is saying give thanks for the circumstances...but rather continue to give thanks to God no matter the circumstances That makes sense I think....seems being thankful is a heart issue.

Goes in cycles. In Greenland they used to graze cattle where there is only ice and snow. The earth is not winding down. It will keep going until God decides to close that chapter. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.… Colossians 1

I would also state not a mandate, but Jesus did give us the example of giving thanks for our food. I don't know why, but I tend to give thanks at supper more...maybe cause that is my favorite meal? But I also pray throughout the day and in the am, when I pray, I give thanks for the whole day...I really believe in giving thanks cause we are told many times in scripture to give thanks...with a grateful heart...maybe you know that chorus? Maybe you should not wait until you are so hungry you just eat? (kidding)

Augustine: This appears to be a copy/paste from somewhere else...unless you highlighted with the pale orange? Believers who exercise the gift of tongues are no better or worse then those who do not. You don't suddenly become perfect because you speak in tongues anymore then you suddenly become perfect the moment you are saved However, the words of Christ are true when He states 'but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." Acts 1:8 I'm not Pentecostal, but your statement above is offensive perhaps, to those who are. I would caution against making fun, making disparaging comments or calling people you are actually ignorant about, possessed.

LOL!

Check out tigger's post again and pay attention to the sp...then you will better understand what Fez posted LOL!

There have been a number of threads wherein this topic has been hotly discussed and one in particular. Therefore, and because I don't see any purpose in disagreeing with scripture, I'm not going to debate the issue with anyone who believes the gifts have ceased or that we are living in perfection. I am not judging anyone...that is just my stand on the issue. I grew up in a church where it was taught that speaking in tongues was of the devil... some churches even go that far. However, my own search for truth on the issue led me into God's presence and He did fill me with His Spirit and I do speak in tongues and I do not participate in disrupting services or abuse of the gift or any other gift God may see to give me. The gifts are for the building up of the body...believers...speaking in tongues is both a sign for unbelievers and for the Christians personal prayer life. Some have the gift of interpretation. Paul did say he would rather speak 5 words understood in a service then speak many that were not understood. That, is not an indication to stop all speaking in tongues. If that were so, Paul would have said so...rather he states 'don't forbid speaking in tongues' I am not of the belief that everyone should seek this gift...I would lean more to making sure your walk with God is in order and that you are living for Him before being asked to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Maybe someone can find that long thread a post a link...I would, but the search feature does not seem to be working for me at the moment

The gifts of the spirit are most certainly valid today. People who profess that they do not believe so, ALWAYS quote I Corinthians 13:8 1. Has knowledge passed away? well of course not so why state speaking in tongues has? 2. Are we living in perfection? Of course not, so why state speaking in tongues has passed away? 3. There are still prophecies due to be fulfilled, so why state the gifts have all stopped? The only point being made in I Cor. 13:8 is that the love of God will never pass away even when we don't need gifts or prophecy or more knowledge because we will live in heaven with Him forever This has less then nothing to do with offering evidence that the gifts have stopped. The book of Acts records the 120 followers of Jesus, including the disciples, gathered in an upper room waiting for the gift Jesus had promised. What was that gift? The Holy Spirit. So, Jesus did not speak in tongues that we know of, because He had to be crucified, raised from the dead and then ascend back to heaven in order for God to send the Holy Spirit. We need to be careful we do need grieve the Holy Spirit. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. I Cor 14 Unfortuneately, as with so many things, there is abuse and some churches teach you must speak in tongues in order to be saves but the Bible says no such thing.

That is my conclusion also.

Regarding your questions: You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for you have created all things, and for your pleasure they are and were created. Rev.4:11 Do you deny that Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man when He came to earth to do the will of the Father? Did you forget you also wrote this and in fact, a good number of similar posts? It seems from this post on the first page of the thread you started and entitled CHRISTIAN PERFECTION that you actually do believe that you can live without sin because nothing is impossible with God. The problem there of course, is that you are not God. I John 1:8 is written to Christians. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and tthe truth is not in us. You are correct if you state the only sinless person to walk this earth was Jesus...however, you deny His deity. That, means you deny that God has come in the flesh. You cannot partition the deity of Jesus Christ He either was or He was not God and Man upon the earth. However, taking into account your belief that a Christian can be perfect, it appears when you state this: Again I have never stated anyone has lived their entire life without sin except for Christ. you are actually referring to pre-conversion life. The word 'perfect' in Matthew 5:48 does not mean sinless. It means mature or complete. Jesus addresses how we are to love prior to v.48...we are to love as God loves... You are blameless because of what Jesus Christ has done FOR you and NOT for anything YOU have done. I'd like to remind you of this verse from Isaiah 64:6...But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. That, is who we are without the redemption of God through His Son. Wilful sin or a sinful lifestyle is excluded for those who follow Christ. However, I agree with John that if we say we have no sin we are liars and the truth is not in us. This is speaking of deliberate sin or a sinful lifestyle. You do not understand the concept of sin or the nature of sin. Paul called himself the chief of sinners and also expressed his battle with sin: For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.…Romans 7 I know that does not fit in with your theology, but it is in the Bible and a person led by the Holy Spirit would give heed to it because it describes every last one of us. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So, Paul actually states he had sin living inside of him. Those who believe they have reached sinless perfection are deceived as the above passage written by Paul would testify. The Bible says far more about sin and the sin nature then you give credit for. You have also badly misquoted Paul if you state he says he was perfect or sinless (that is perfect in the sense you appear to ascribe to it...ie sinless state) News flash. You cannot keep anyone from perishing. Only God can do that. He draws by His Spirit and He knows those who are His. He keeps those who are His and He has not appointed you to preach a different gospel in order to provide salvation. I have known people who are so deceived that they believe David and Jonathan had a homosexual lifestyle and they conclude that they can have one too. Deception is the devil's biggest weapon and we are warned over and over concerning the use of this weapon. Only an admittance of truth will deliver a person from deception. I am afraid you simply do not understand the gift we are given through the grace of God and it seems you believe your salvation is in your own deeds. Sorry to say, the length of time one spends in a hopeless pursuit does not amount to anything but a waste of time. I don't know how you developed your beliefs, or if you were taught them, but they are not biblical. I can see you have laboriously struggled with these things, but the nature of deception is such that once entangled, a person needs help to become free. Actions do not save anyone. Actions as a result of salvation are normal....believing they save is not biblical. With reference to the bold type in your quote: this is not a question as we have not had that discussion You have no idea what I believe other then the fact that I believe that Jesus Christ was fully God and man when He was on earth. Again, you claim you do not sin (see underlined in your quote)...you are not in agreement with either Paul or John; you only quote what you think fits in with your personal theology Those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life are saved...not those who keep an exhaustive list through good works or condemnation of others or self righteousness Our works will be judged..the Bible clearly states that....but they do not save us. Only God's grace and forgiveness through the blood of His Son provides salvation for us. Read the Old Testament and understand what the law and the sacrifices were about. Gee...when I read what I post, I cannot find what you claim I believe. That would be because I did not state this..seems more like an attempt to make my walk with God inferior to your walk. It's not working. You are actually the one I would raise the shield of faith against at this point. The post above is an attempt to create a defensive posture where none is needed. I don't know who you are or all that you believe, but I am not engaging further with you. I pray God protects those who read your posts from your deception.

Mr. N: I don't think that is what is going on. Here is what you first wrote to me: First, I do agree that Jesus has always been and I have never stated otherwise, so please don't claim I have because that is bearing false witness. Now, you appear to claim to need clarification on what I believe concerning Christ's deity. Follow the breadcrumbs right on back up my posts. I've made it 100% clear and included scripture to back up what I believe. I know what you believe. You may have Kan backing you up...go to the same group? but you do not have the Bible backing up what you state concerning Jesus leaving bits and parts of Himself behind. There is only one way to be saved and it does not include the long checklist you have burdened yourself with. Paul and Silas were asked by their jailer what to do in order to be saved Here is the answer you missed and it is this simple: BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS and you will be saved. Acts 16 for that story That is salvation...as the thief on the cross was given...santification and all the rest occur AFTER salvation and are a process. Salvation is not an unsure thing. We can know here and now if we are saved. Fear is not a part of love nor is it a part of salvation.

No, that is what you say I wrote. I didn't write that. It would be a kindness if you would stop misquoting in order to make your point. You may also consider I was not addressing you although you are still free to respond. You don't know what my definitions are, so you go further off track and address me as if I was a humanist trying to make sense of the Bible. This is what I actually wrote: We, can never live in a sinless state on this earth and the Bible does not indicate that we will. If that is what you believe, it is further indication of your private interpretation which is not biblical and is not from the Holy Spirit. I did not say the Bible allows for continued sin...BUT we do not have the same concept of what sin is or the sin nature That's quite a difference. I guess when people are so badly misquoted the posts can continue for page after page and never have resolution. As the rest of your post appears to be a response to nothingI actually wrote, I don't see any point in responding