TimGertsch

I've been smoke free for a month, same thing, not a single craving, all the power of Christ alone. I prayed my way through the first few days of hard cravings, and after that, my addiction was taken away. Glory to God for our success in quitting. Congrats to you friend!

Thanks for the heads up mate. Good article. This Old TestamentScripture "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:28), naturally only applys to those born again. What a person did before turning to Christ is all forgiven. The problem I'm having with that is this. If you choose not to get tats on the grounds of Leviticus 19:28, then you're kinda screwed when it comes to a great many other aspects of life, like shellfish, multi blend clothing, etc. These kinds of ritualistic, cleanliness laws were atoned for by Christ on the cross. They were eternally fulfilled by his sin sacrifice. He states in the New Testament the LAWS which were kept regarding stealing, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, etc. but the majority of the OT practices like this one were atoned for. Dont be having problems mate. You are correct! The Old Testament Laws were given by God through Moses to Israel. They were between God and Israel! They are all done away with on the cross. All except 9 of the 10 commandments, keeping the sabbath. Isiah 1:13-14. We can observe any day we please now. Probably a poor choice of words, I didn't mean to imply that I had a problem so to speak. Just a miscommunication about the relevance of the Levitical statement about tattoos. Sorry for the mixup,

Thanks for the heads up mate. Good article. This Old TestamentScripture "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:28), naturally only applys to those born again. What a person did before turning to Christ is all forgiven. The problem I'm having with that is this. If you choose not to get tats on the grounds of Leviticus 19:28, then you're kinda screwed when it comes to a great many other aspects of life, like shellfish, multi blend clothing, etc. These kinds of ritualistic, cleanliness laws were atoned for by Christ on the cross. They were eternally fulfilled by his sin sacrifice. He states in the New Testament the LAWS which were kept regarding stealing, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, etc. but the majority of the OT practices like this one were atoned for.

Hmm. A dangerous perspective to take. As I stated previously in this thread, my entire right arm is sleeved with tattoos, and I have several other tattoos in various other places on my upper body. Would you therefore classify me as evil, even though I'm on my own Christian walk? I think the word APPEARANCE may be deceiving you a little bit. Appearance in the context meant by Paul is in reference to a person's lifestyle, actions, deeds, works. How you "appear" to the world, not a reference to your physical appearance. Would then a person who has a facial deformation be evil as well? That's where it gets a little dicey. I would never ever consider your looks or compare your lifestyle with anything to do with your salvation. I epsecially would not consider you evil because of your apearence at all. I'm sure if you had a skull and crossbones tattoo'd on you face with the words "Death Too All I See" you would not feel comefortable in public, and especially uncomefortable in a group of God's people? Anything one does before one is born again is forgiven by God. After the new birth one is more carefull with what one does in all aspects of life. One of my neighbours had, "EAT SH#T AND DIE," tattoo'd across his forhead, "DEVILS ADVOCATE" on his chest, and "JYPSY JOKER," on his back, in his early twenties during his time as a member of a rebel motorcycle gang. He now in his 50's and deeply regrets his discision and he cannot afford to have them removed. He knows its because these tattoo's he is unemployable and his life is a misery. Well, getting a tattoo on your forehead, regardless of content, is definitely a foolish move, haha, at least in today's world. You might be able to get a job at Hot Topic or something, MAYBE. But as you say, it's got nothing to do with salvation. I think the world spends too much time worrying about our fleshly appearances, and less time worrying about our MORAL appearances... which are looking a bit shabby if you ask me.

Not a dangerous perspective, a biblical perspective as I see it from the Word of God. The word 'appearance' from the verse that I pointed out from 1 Thessalonians is 1491 in the Greek dictionary and the definition is: a view - appearance, fashion, shape, sight. From that it is obvious that Paul is saying to abstain from anything that has any likeness to evil. I certainly couldn't find anything in the Bible that would support having tattoos. Titus 3:9a says: But avoid fooish questions... so I don't mean to be argumentive about this; I'm just pionting out what the Bible teaches. Yes... you have the DEFINITION of the word, that's great, not necessarily an indicator of how it was meant though when given the context of the rest of the bible. Tattoos are something specific to one's PHYSICAL appearance, which is clearly something that was atoned for by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. I would offer this verse to you as well: "You are judging by appearances. If anyone is confident that they belong to Christ, they should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as they do." 2 Corinthians 10:7. I would then refer you back to Fez's earlier comment regarding the 2 different Christians with totally different PHYSICAL appearances, but whose SPIRITUAL appearances were the polar opposites. The New Testament doesn't state anywhere that tattoos are evil, and your reference of the word appearance is not to be taken in literal context. There are very few ways of saying, "Aren't tattoos evil?" that aren't offensive or argumentative. I would confidently venture to say that while I'm a sinner just like you, I don't think EVIL is a word I (or anyone I know) would use to describe myself... it's an empty, judgemental statement, no matter how you slice it.

Hmm. A dangerous perspective to take. As I stated previously in this thread, my entire right arm is sleeved with tattoos, and I have several other tattoos in various other places on my upper body. Would you therefore classify me as evil, even though I'm on my own Christian walk? I think the word APPEARANCE may be deceiving you a little bit. Appearance in the context meant by Paul is in reference to a person's lifestyle, actions, deeds, works. How you "appear" to the world, not a reference to your physical appearance. Would then a person who has a facial deformation be evil as well? That's where it gets a little dicey.

May I also offer this one? "Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be." James 3:10

I was kinda thinkin' that same thing bud. If the reason a person doesn't like tattoos is Leviticus 19:28, then they must lead a VERY strict life, what with having to follow every single one of those tedious laws...

If you got tattoos before you got saved, or you were saved but didn't know they were wrong, it is not the same as someone knowing better and getting them anyway. When it comes to what we must follow as opposed to what we don't need to be concerned with, everyone disagrees. Some don't believe we need to follow any of the law. Some believe we need to even keep the sabbath and eat kosher. Some don't believe we need to live any better than the worst sinner. Everyone is going to have to stand before God and give account of their life, so we need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Whenever you have someone ask a question about the right or wrong of something, they expect honest responses so they can make up their own mind. I for one am sick of those who get angry when someone dares say anything is wrong. Someone asks if we have to observe the sabbath? A person says we do, and 5 or 6 people jump on them, and try to look for fault in that person to silence them. Another person asks about eating pork? Someone says yes, and all heck breaks loose on that person. How dare they share that opinion? What about those who don't believe in celebrating Christmas? I don't agree with all those things, but if someone has that opinion, they have a right to share it. This article was very helpful and explanatory in regards to my questions about this kind of topic. http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/09/making-sense-of-scriptures-inconsistency/ Give it a gander, it's really a good read, and helped me kinda sort through the stuff I was wondering about. What I was able to discern about it was this: All of those laws, the cleanliness laws and ceremonial laws, were basically the guidelines the people had to follow in order to be "worthy" (for lack of a better term) or clean enough, to go before and worship the Lord. When Christ was slain on the cross, the veil was torn, the filter removed, and we are all now free to approach the Lord ourselves, without having a Levite go into the Tabernacle once a year to atone for all of our sins with a goat or a lamb. We have nothing holding us back from having an individual, personal, DIRECT relationship to God. Therefore, the ceremonial cleanliness portions are unnecessary, Christ covered ALL of that with His death, out of love and grace, because of man's inability to do it. He doesn't expect us to follow all the strict, formulaic guidelines of the OT, because He desires our love and fellowship above ritualistic, systematic practice. Therefore, as tattoos aren't mentioned in Jesus' list of rules (stealing, murder, adultery, etc), it is clearly among the parts that were fulfilled by Him. I don't necessarily believe that getting them is wrong, nor that the Lord looks disfavorably upon them, being that they could give glory to His name in the right circumstances. I personally won't get anymore, because I feel it is focusing too much emphasis on my PHYSICAL being, and not on my inner image, the image I strive to make more like Him. I'm not saying you're wrong for disliking them, or believing they're wrong. I just wonder what your motive for that dislike or disbelief comes from.

There's a very interesting article by a guy named Tim Keller that addresses the "inconsistencies" of the bible, as per questions like, "How can you condemn homosexuality when you eat shellfish and wear multi fabric shirts?!" by non-Christians. How this relates to this thread is this. When Christ died on the cross, the cleanliness rites and laws and requirements were basically washed away and atoned for. The laws of the OT were fulfilled by Christ, but he goes into detail and explains that there are still things you shouldn't do (stealing, muder, adultery, sexual immorality, etc). Tattoos are not among those things. I worried about this very issue for a long time, as before I was a Christian I was very much into tattoos, and my entire right arm is covered, as well as a spot on my chest, the back of my neck and a couple meaningful ones on my left arm. I worried that I was marred, and wouldn't be viewed for my works and faith, simply because of the way I looked. After reading the article I mentioned above, it brought it all into perspective for me and I feel a lot better. Personally, I won't be getting anymore. It's time and money for one thing, and because since becoming a Christian, I've realized the futility of focusing so much on the physical appearance of an individual. Look at it this way: "17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander." Matthew 15:17-19. He's referring to what's being eaten being a sin, and Jesus says it's more important how you act and live than WHAT you eat. In the same fashion, in Christ's eyes, it doesn't matter what you look like, it matters how you LIVE. Think of it that way friend. God bless you.

I have bible studies at my house every week, and we have between 6 and 8 people there most of the time, depending on availability. I can honestly say that at times, it gets a bit tight. I don't have a large house, and therefore, not a very big living room, but still... space is an issue when you're talking about 10 or more people.

Yeah, I gotta say, 2,000 square feet is pretty large, but if he was given that permit to renovate the garage into an occupiable space, I'm not sure they should have the right to tell him what he can or can't use it for. Unless of course he's the kind of guy who incorporates fireworks and pyrotechnics into his bible studies... haha.

Ummm, not so sure that's fair. The purpose of these forums is to discuss and debate the subject, and allow for new people to offer their opinions, and not close it down when ONE person feels it's reached it's limit. Yes, we've been quoting scripture to support our feelings that swearing is wrong and that the use of profanity is wrong. Within that, we've also been giving some testimonies of our own battles with swearing, as a way to guide others to helpful ways to NOT do it. Threads like this have the potential to help build others up with support and kind words, and should be continued as long as the conversation remains civil, productive and in the interest of giving glory to our Lord. Sorry to offend, I mean no hostility, but things must be thought through a little deeper before making an assessment.

Maybe I'm missing something in my interpretation, but biblically, this was meant in a literal sense to describe the animal itself. A donkey, by definition, cannot speak, and is therefore DUMB. ASS is just another word for donkey, since that's what they were called. I'm not sure it's meant as a curse, being that those words have a normal, mundane definition, where words like the f-bomb don't really have any... Again, maybe I'm missing what you were going for with the insertion of this piece of scripture, and if so, definitely point me in the right direction. But I'm pretty sure it's just a descriptive phrase of reference. You are right in what you say and i just thru this out because today it is considered a cuss word I have been called this many time for many mistakes Ive made and have heard it used as cussing many times. I should have clarified y self. Sorry No problem at all, that's kind of what I figured, but wasn't sure. No problem at all friend!

Maybe I'm missing something in my interpretation, but biblically, this was meant in a literal sense to describe the animal itself. A donkey, by definition, cannot speak, and is therefore DUMB. ASS is just another word for donkey, since that's what they were called. I'm not sure it's meant as a curse, being that those words have a normal, mundane definition, where words like the f-bomb don't really have any... Again, maybe I'm missing what you were going for with the insertion of this piece of scripture, and if so, definitely point me in the right direction. But I'm pretty sure it's just a descriptive phrase of reference.