nebula

Well, that's OK you took your time - I kind of laid out a lot of questions for you to sort through. Like Shadow2Be, I can appreciate the work you put into this. Although I appreciate your response, I still do not see it panning out as you have interpreted it. What bothers me the most is that some of your claims go against what other spiritual authorities are saying regarding the current times. I don't mean about the interpretation of the eighth beast as being a nation rather than the "person" of "the Anti-Christ" as has always been interpreted, or even the Beast that comes out of the Earth, called "the false prophet" in Rev. 19:20, being the leader of that nation. A cry has been sounded. The heart of God desired for his people to intercede for then President Clinton to become truly born-agian. Instead, we yelled at him, we criticized him, we made fun of him, we tore him to shreds, we mocked him. Some said, but we did pray for him!" Sure, "Lord, do something about that dirty, rotten sinner!" Is that a prayer of fragrant incense before the Lord?" Or others actually would pray sincerely, "Lord, save this man who desperately needs you!" But then they would go around spreading derogatory "Clinton jokes" and still go about slandering him. I know I was guilty, and when I heard this cry that it was the Lord's desire for us to truly intercede for him, but that we failed, I was stricken to the heart. But it still took me a long time to lay aside the slander. I wonder how many others really took this to heart in even a small measure. The current cry I have heard is that President Bush is our last chance. If we don't cry out to God for this man, we've really screwed up bad and big time. We, the Church, are supposed to be salt and light to the world - not hiding in our homes from the evil of the world waiting for Jesus to come and take it all away. As romantic as the image of the handsome prince battling his way to the tower and slaying the dragon to save the princess locked in the tower is, this is not what Jesus wants for Him and His bride. Remember, the Kingdom of God is in us! He wants to build the Kingdom through us! We need to be advancing the Kingdom here on Earth, now and throughout our lives. How can we advance th Kingdom if we are crying out Evil! Evil! and Sin! Sin! all over the place? If we just shine the light, the light will do its own job in exposing the darkness! The cry of the Lord that I have heard is for us to diligently seek the lord in prayer over Pres. Bush, to continually bring him before the throne of God, for him to seek the Lord himself, for him to make wise decisions, stuff like that. None of this fits with him being the Beast. I don't know all that is going on with the Mid-East (after Desert storm, I learned to be careful in jumping to any conclusions too quickly), nor with this Roadmap to Peace plan. But I do know that this is all the more proof that we need to earnestly seek the Lord for Pres. Bush and the decisions he is making - for the enemy would greatly desire to use him for his purposes, be they great or small. We can't let this happen to him, to our beloved nation. We need to fight for this nation! How can we say, "Well, the U.S. is the eighth beast, therefore doomed to destruction, therefore we'll just let it go to its evil ways,..."? No! This is not the cry of the Lord that is being sounded! We've got to fall on our faces before the Lord and cry out for this land! For our president! For our Congress! For our Supreme Court! For our state governments and legislatures! For our county governments and legislatures! For our schools! For our friends, neighbors, family members! How can we just let these perish? Shine the light and let the light take care of the darkness. Just shine the light.

Anyone else find it odd that we went from talking about Heaven to talking about food? My goodness, I've heard of thread hijacks before, but this one takes the cake!

no pop ?!?!?! how do you survive ? Like I said earlier - we have "sodas."

I don't know, I am thinking "Corrupted News Network" would be more accurate and less demeaning in ways we should guard against going. Think?

We don't have "pop" in Maryland. :LOL:

Yeah, the question is: were these girls depressed before or after the sexual activity?

Has anyone heard the reports of how in the movie, Bruce is given a phone number to call God with - a non-555 number - and people areactually calling this number to reach God! The problem is, this phone number is a number to actual places in several areas of the country - gas stations, restaurants, etc. People are calling this number and asking for God. Some are joking, but many are actually serious! My goodness, are people hungry for God or what? Lord, send laborers into the harvest field, for the fields are ripe unto harvest!

My pastor made an interesting statement last Sunday. He was speaking about how in order for there to be a great revival, there must first be a great repentence. In his sermon, he got to Isaiah 6, where Isaiah received a vision of the Lord and how the holiness of God exposed Isaiah to his own sin and brought out a cry of repentance from his lips. Then my pastor jumped to the parable of the Prodigal Son, how he in his darkest of sin came to his senses, repented and returned to his father. Then he asked, "How many of you here are the Prodigal Son?" A few raised their hands. He then asked, "How about the rest of you? What are you?" Pause. "Well, there are only three people in the story, and we know you aren't the father. So if you aren't the prodigal son, that makes you the older brother!" Then he described the older brother a bit, how he was confident in his own righteousness and such. But then he made an interesting statement. He said, "Do you know what a Pharisee is? A Pharisee is someone who is very harsh on sin - their sin, his sin, her sin, your sin. A Pharisee is someone who is extremely harsh on everyone's sin - except his/her own!" :x: :rofl: Looking back at Isaiah, he stated how he believes Isaiah was of the latter. Look at chapter 5 - "Vs. 8 - Woe to you who add field to field and house to house; Vs. 11 - Woe to those who rise early in the morning to run after their drinks; Vs. 18 - Woe to those who draw sin along with cords of deceit; Vs. 20 - Woe to those who call evil good and good evil; Vs. 21 - Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight; Vs. 22 - Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine.... "Then in chapter 6, Isaiah sees the Lord and cries out, 'WOE IS ME . . . .'" ********************** Oh that the holiness of God would pierce our hearts in such a way that we see ourselves as guilty as godless, our sin as horrible and intollerable as the world's around us, that we would fall on our faces before the Lord and cry out for His mercy against the deceitfulness and wickedness of our own hearts!

Do you mean like balancing out what it means to be "in the world, but not of the world"?

Pop!!! What kinda pop ya gonna bring ? Well, let's see . . . I'll bring Coke for the Coke-lovers, Pepsi for the Pepsi-lovers, Root Beer ('cause I like it!), 7-Up for the non-cola types, Cream Soda for Anonymous Pam, and lemon aid for those that prefer not to have sodas .

Well, we already got popcorn and Reese's pieces. How about I supply the drinks? :!!!:

Hey, can I join?

Blind Seeker - OK, I am responding as promised from the other thread. It is an interesting train of logic you are following here. There are many things that to me make sense, yet other things which do not. Comparing Pearl Harbor to the fatal wound which was healed - that seems like a big stretch to me. I'm not an historian, but I do not believe this attack went down on record as being a fatal wound to America from which it was healed - a serious wound, maybe, but not fatal. Besides, the Navy is only one branch of the armed services, and I am not so sure that a wound to one branch of the armed services could be considered a fatal blow to the entire country. I am also confused in that it seems to me that you are mixing "the beast that came out of the sea," "the beast that came out of the Earth," and the beast the woman is riding on. In Rev. 13, it is clear that the 7-headed beast with ten horns etc. (vs. 1-10) is a separate beast from the one with two horns like a lamb that speaks like a dragon (vs. 11-18). For one thing, the beast that comes out of the Earth makes the Earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, so how can they be the same? For another, this beast has a statue built to honor the beast with the wounded-healed head. Now, I can see how the beast that comes out of the sea matches the beast the beast the woman rides on because they both have seven heads and ten horns, but not how either of them can be the beast that comes out of the Earth. I don't know if you meant to intermix these, but that is how it is reading to me, and it does not make sense. Another thing that troubles me is that it looks like you are saying that America is the 8th beast with the nations of Egypt through Britain being the seven heads. Fair enough. But in Rev. 13:3 it says, "One of the heads of the beast seemed to have a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed." How can this be something in America's past when the heads of the beast are former nations? If the seven heads are the seven great nations of the past, would it not make sense then that it means one of the fallen empires came back to power? Let's see, Egypt and Britain are still around, just not so powerful as they once were. Could there be something there? For example: Isn't Yassar Arafat an Egyptian by birth, or something like that? Or could Brittain's allegience to the U.S. have something to do with it coming back to power? (I am just playing speculation games - I have no claims that any of this actually means anything.) But do you see my train of thought here? The prostitute Babylon being false religion. Well, I don't see how this fits with some of the other descriptions of her in Rev. 18, where all the merchants of the Earth or mourning their loss of buying cargo from her and such (vs. 11-13) or the kings of the Earth who commited adultery with her mourning over her (vs. 9-10). OK, I do not see this fitting with false religion. "The merchants of the Earth grew rich from her excessive luxeries." From false religion????? I know there is some wealth floating around with the Christian music industry and mega-churches and the Vatican and tele-Evangelists, but hardly this much! Nor do I see too many world leaders flirting with religion. I believe the mystery of Babylon goes much deeper than this. Another thing that bothers me, how come when people point to America and the evil that comes out of it, they point to politics and wealth? What about Hollywood?!!! Persoanlly, when I think of American filth, Hollywood, the music industry, and the news media are the first things that come to my mind. Would you not say that these avenues have spread "Americanism" more than the political or financial industries? I also do not see how the descriptions of the people of the Earth worshipping the beast fits with America. It sounds to me like there are a lot of nations not too happy with us, or even hating us. And although I can see how people would look at America's military accomplishments and compare that to the nations of the Earth marveling, "Who is like unto the beast? Who can make war with the beast?" I don't see this happening. Terrorists are currently at war with us (not to get too political here, but anyone who thinks the terrorists have raised the white flag are dreaming). France, Germany, and Russia have opposed us. North Korea, Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia aren't acting very afraid of us and our military might. So, I would have to say that A + B or not equalling C with this one. Close, but not quite. With all that said, it makes sense to me that you are onto something, but I do not see all the propositions panning out as they have been laid out.

I skimmed through it, but I've been so swamped with schoolwork that I had not had tome to truly evaluate/comment on it (like most of the Board!). I'll look at it again and comment there sometime soon.

BlindSeeker - I find you line of logic quite interesting. Comparing the Beast in Revelation to Daniel's vision of Beasts (which lines up with Nebecchednezzer's (sp?) vision of the statue - err, whatever the toes are...) instead of the Beast being a person, as in the Antichrist (a singular person) is very intriguing. Interestingly, it makes a lot of sense. A couple of questions though. Israel a Beast? Please explain this one; that seems a bit too radical of thought. How could this be the mount of the Harlot? Looking at your list of Empires - notice how from Egypt to Rome, these Empires pretty much run back to back to each other, some responsible for defeating the predecessor, whereas there is a hu-u-u-u-u-ge gap (several centuries) between Rome and England. Could this be what is meant by the "was, is not, and will be"? I'm very interested in hearing the rest of what you have to say. **************************************************** Dr. Luke - Just a nit pick, but I believe it a stretch to say that Reagan defeated communism. Communism pretty much fell on its own, don't you think?

Who do you think I got my information from? ************************************************** I go for the Matrix within the Matrix idea, too - but the guy who played the video game is the one who says otherwise. Didn't you think theat control room in Zion was a bit out of place? (Like, where did all this technology come from in comparison to the rest of the city, which is more mechanical in nature? And why in the Control Room were there people hooked up - did you notice that?) Very odd.

This is going to sound odd, but I agree with all of the above. OK, so I like the sci-fi/fantasy genre, and my dad wanted to see the movie, yada-yada. (I just walked out of the theater during the sex-scene and no problems!). The first Matrix movie was a good movie as far as movie quality goes. The second movie - not so great. Well, for those that like action scenes and don't care about substance it was great. Well, that is what it felt like - a lot of fight scenes interrupted by a story line to weave the fight scenes together. The comparison to a video game is more correct than you realize. I have discovered that to really understand the movie, you have to play the video game, as it offers missing elements of the story. Apparently, there are also supposed to be some mini-movies that coincide with the Matrix Reloaded that add more, though I forget what they call them or where to see them. If this is the wave of the future with movies.... :suspect: On the other hand, there is now a mystery going on. Some people are suspecting a "matrix within the matrix." But someone who played the video games said that Neo actually touched the Source (what "saves" humanity) before bookin it out as fast as he could to save Trinity, but in touching the Source he is now stuck between the two worlds. As far as the the spiritual content - it all got washed out. At first, Neo is told there are no choices; all the choices have been made already. But when in the room with the Architect (the designer of the Matrix - he's in the form of a human, but he could just as easily be a program simulation of the machine that created the Matrix for all we know), Neo is told that there have been six versions of him already, and they all made the same choice - not that it really was a choice. The Matrix only works because there is a 1% margin of error, that which allows a few people to realize the truth of the Matrix and break free. Within this error allowance, the program creates a "One," someone who has this power to manipulate the Matrix (though there are indications that Neo is able to do more than his predecessors, i.e. an opponent at first telling Neo he is no different from the others, then watching Neo stop a round of bullets changes his mind and states, "O, you have skill!"). The purpose of this One is to enter the control room, touch the Source, and select a handful of males and females to found the new Zion - as the old is on its way to being destroyed again. This keeps the Matrix alive and the humans hooked up to it alive. But the Architect informs Neo he is different form the others in that he has love for another. This makes him different for some reason, though it is not stated why. So, when he is given the choice to "save humanity" by continuing the Matrix with the cycle of Zion or the choice to save Trinity, the Architect has Neo weaved in this tale that he really has no choice in the matter. So, in choosing to save Trinity he is actaully fighting against the Matrix. It makes it very complicated to say what is the "right" thing to do here. So, basically, whatever New Age message that was brought across in the film in the beginning-middle of the film, in my opinion, totally got thrown away because it all came out to be a lie. But now the door is open for post-modernism philosophy to take control, because that sure was opened up with this new twist. Oh, and Neo ain't nothing like Jesus at all by any means! "I didn't find you," he says to a young man, "you found me." Not! But apart from one of the ships being named the Logos, I didn't see any Biblical parallels this time. But who except Christians are looking for or paying attention to those? Bottom line - the Matrix is a movie for people who like action flicks. The first one had some pretty strong spiritual parallels - some good, some wrong - that made the story more intriguing, and it was actually a good story (story-quality wise that is) which made it more worth seeing that most action flicks that come out (again, that is for people who like action flicks. The second movie, as far as movies go, the only thing it has going for it is the mystery aspect of it. What is the truth now? (BTW, God-Man, do you think Persephone transferred something to Neo? Remember how she put on the lipstick before she kissed him? Anyway, some others have speculated this.) Sorry for the side-not folks. It is a perplexing mystery. :x:

I am feeling at odds about this whole subject. I am even wondering if it is worth getting all up in arms about. Remember that horrible movie The Last Temptation of Christ? We Christians raised a mighty roar against that film, for good reason! Some of us even picketted theaters that were showing it, signed boycott petitions and the whole works. Some time later, I heard news from an inside source stating that the producers of that film were actually the ones behind provoking the Christians to rise up against the film as we did as a means of gaining free publicity (you know how people tend to flock to controversy, and seriously, would anyone have known about the film had not the Christian organizations made such a big stink over the film? I sure would never have heard of it). After hearing that report, I felt quite humbled. And I wondered - OK, exactly what battle am I fighting right now? Am I to be a like a bird high on a perch looking down on the world being the world (whether it be living in sin, promoting sin, or misrepresenting the Name of the Lord in very bad ways) and cry out to the birds next to me, "They are such filthy rotten heathens!! Look at them there..."? Does that accomplish anything? Or am I to cry out to the world below me, "You are such filthy rotten heathens...!"? Personal experience: you only drive people away from God with that. There's an expression: It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. I've done a lot of "cursing the darkness" in my day. Look at where it's gotten me. NOWHERE! So, how do I "light a candle?" I am still learning this. But one thing I can think of is that if I can find a way to glorify God through something - anything - why not take the opportunity and use it to its full advantage? When I read soemthing like this: Hello! Never in my wildest dreams did I picture something like this ever coming out of Hollywood! Yes, it falls short of the Cross, but it's a step in the right direction. And, sometimes it takes little steps like that to get to the final destination. Little steps took this country down the path of immoratlity; why cannot little steps bring sinners to God? Mind you, I don't like the negative aspects of the film, nor do I condone them. But given the choice between "cursing the darkness" and "lighting a candle," I'd rather light the candle and use it to light other candles if at all possible. I can pray that sinners walking into that movie would HEAR this message of repentance, that this small seed would fall onto fertile soil in their hearts, that they too will eventually be driven to their knees and in seeking "God" will find come to find Jesus! That is all I am saying. I am not pushing anyone to see the film, nor am I asking you to throw away your convictions, nor am I looking to this film for "entertainment" and nor would I go see this film for the sake of mere entertainment. That just goes against my grain. But having read this review, I do not believe it is the outlandish mockery of God it at first seemed from the previews. That's not to say there isn't room for improvement.... As per the language, I don't know what you meant by "You cannot go and expose the Holy Spirit within you to vile language" in terms of how I read it. My first thought was, "I think the Holy Spirit is tough enough to handle some foul words!" Actually, He can probably handle it better than I can! My second thought was, "Golly, I can't even go down to the neighborhood convenience store without the risk of exposing myself to vile language." I don't know how things are where you live, but around here I can hardly go anywhere, even to work, without hearing such words. If holiness means not exposing myself to vile language, I'd have to live as a hermit! I am being serious. It is e-v-e-r-y-w-h-e-r-e. Now, if Morgan Freeman uses such words in the film - yeah, I'd have major problems with that. ************************************ But my point is not, really, about advocating or defending this film. It's really not worth getting into a battle over. My point is about "sitting in the seat of judgement" and using this as an example. Do I really belong there? I'm not talking about discussing with believers about what is right and what is wrong practice. But I am talking about discussing with fellow believers, "Can you believe just how far our society will go to show their mockery of God?!" Is there life in this kind of discussion, really? Blessings!

OK, the review I mentioned before is back up. Click here to read it. Maybe after you read this you might see why I've double-taked my opinion of the movie.

Well...if the UN actually did it's job in the first place . . . . :suspect: Sorry, Peanuts, but the UN has proven itself unfaithful, untrustworthy, and inneffective in enforcing its proposals and written agendas (Yeah, note I said "written" agendas - I wonder about the "unwritten" ones. ) OK, there be my thoughts.

Yeah, I'm with you Shilou! Of course, what I am thinking is a lot more complex in answer but much simpler in question: "How would you explain the account of Creation from a 21st century Western scientific standpoint?"

Garantham, PA?! As in Messiah College?! That was my college - graduated in '92. :a2: Definantly a big congrats and prayers for many, many, many, blessing!!

I hope you are not saying you believe that this is what I am saying. That is s-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o not my heart, not by any means at all.

You would just have different garbage to contend with. One thing a lot of people don't realize is the dangers of the evil spirit of religion. Oh, it looks like God - but boy it sure ain't! I may not have the garbage I would have had had I not been a Christian all my life, but I have other things in my past to contend with. Do you know that my over-extreme religiosity actually drove people away from wanting to know Jesus? (I can tell you the stories, so please no one say I am being too hard on myself. It really did happen.) My point is not to divert this thread onto another discussion, but to make the point that, as much as your past hurts, you really can't linger by the fence looking at the supposedly greener pasture. (Actually, I would say I have lived in a lot more desert terrain than I have green terrain.) I have found a better way to find mercy for the memories. I hopw both of you may find this, too.

No, I haven't seen it. I've been too swamped with getting these school projects done. Besides, I wanted to see what the Christian movie review sites had to say about this film first. I was feeling wary of how the second film would have been portrayed (knowing they really could have gone more redemptive or less redemtive with the second), and it seems like they went the completely wrong way. The underlined part in my previous post is a link to such a review. It tells all you (didn't) want to know.