allofgrace

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Deut 1:39 ‘Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it. Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. Heb 5:13-14 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. 2 Sam 12:22-23 And he said, “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” Before Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of tree of knowledge they had no knowledge of evil, but afterwards they did and because of that willful act of disobedience that sin nature passed on to all their off spring. But looking at the few verses that I find in scripture and there are a few more but these will suffice to show the point. God did not hold those children under the age of 20 accountable for the refusal to go into the promise land but He did everyone over the age of 20 except Joshua and Caleb. And the verses that speak of a child not having the knowledge or ability to discern what is good or evil He does make a distinction. And when David's son died, David says he would go to be with the child and I do not see why he would draw any comfort from that unless they were both going to be in the same place and alive. What joy would he receive of knowing their bodies would be in the grave? And I only add the Hebrew passage to demonstrate that even the Christian is a babe when coming to the Lord and must grow in grace and knowledge in order to be more obedient in their walk and witness and this is done by their having the knowledge to appropriate the wisdom and power which the Holy Spirit will provide. They still have the sin nature but I believe scripture implies that where there is no law or knowledge of it, there is no sin charged to their account. Each will have to decide their own convictions because there little to go on.

The greatness of the question lies in the mind of the beholder. The reason you would want to raise a dead body is because it is dead and the spirit that has gone to be with the Lord does not have a body. Paul describes in 1 Cor 15 what will happen to the bodies of the dead saints first and then those that are alive. The saints are waiting for their resurrected bodies as this passage shows and what this verse is saying in Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. Why Paul tells us this is a better question---------------at least to me! But, what do I know ? Well, it is scriptural.

I will let each determine what is ignorant. But all one has to do is read the scriptures to know that God did not think Saul would be a good king. Nor did He want anyone other than Himself to be recognized as King over all His people. He is the King of Kings and there is no other true King. As you said, we should stick with what thus says the Lord, so let all you is interested in truth read what the Lord says in: 1 Sam 8:10-21 So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who asked him for a king. 11 And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. 12 He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. 14 And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. 16 And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17 He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. 18 And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.” 19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us, 20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.” 21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the Lord. 22 So the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed their voice, and make them a king.” And Samuel said to the men of Israel, “Every man go to his city.”

Not that I agree that God acts in faith Himself, which I do not find in Scripture, for why and how would He have faith in Himself seems foolish. But there are those that have translated that phrase, faith of God. But we can see that they explain it is having faith in God's ability to do whatever is ask of Him. Here are just a few from biblos.com Barnes' Notes on the Bible Have faith in God - Literally, "Have the faith of God." This may mean, have strong faith, or have confidence in God; a strong belief that he is able to accomplish things that appear most difficult with infinite ease, as the fig-tree was made to wither away by a word. Clarke's Commentary on the Bible Have faith in God - Εχετε πιϚιν θεου is a mere Hebraism: have the faith of God, i.e. have strong faith, or the strongest faith, for thus the Hebrews expressed the superlative degree; so the mountains of God mean exceeding great mountains - the hail of God, exceeding great hail, etc. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible And Jesus answering, saith unto them,.... To all the disciples; for what Peter said, he said in the name of them all; and according to Matthew, the disciples said, "how soon is the fig tree withered away?" To which this is an answer; though the Arabic version renders it, "to him"; as if the words were directed particularly to Peter: have faith in God; or "the faith of God", so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, Persic, and Ethiopic versions; that is, exercise, and make use of that faith which has God for its author, which is the work of God, and of his operation, a free grace gift of his; and which has God for its object; and is supported by his power, and encouraged by his goodness, truth, and faithfulness: and so the Arabic version renders it, "believe in God"; not only that such things may be done, as the drying up a fig tree, but those that are much greater. Geneva Study Bible And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have {e} faith in God. (e) The faith of God is that assured faith and trust which we have in him.

The word itself may not be, just like the word Trinity is not, but the principle for both is clearly there. What does sovereign mean to you? Is there anyone more powerful, more knowing than God? 1 Tim 6:13-16 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. The NKJ I use has a note for Potentate to also mean Sovereign. Here is the meaning of potentate from the 1828 Webster dictionary; PO'TENTATE, n. A person who possesses great power or sway; a prince; a sovereign; an emperor, king or monarch. Exalting him not only above earthly princes and potentates, but above the highest of the celestial hierarchy. There is no sovereign like the Lord our God and no one does anything that He does not allow, He is Sovereign over all things whether or not anyone disputes that or not. The principle is taught throughout scripture on that. Then why is it that we see scripture like this: John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". Granted I would agree with you that He does not compel some to not believe if that be your point but He knew full well that there would be those who would not receive the Lord and He states here that those who do not believe are condemned already. And other scriptures tell us that unbelievers will spend eternity in torment so that would let us know that He indeed knew that there would be many in the lake of fire. After all He created all things and places. Maybe should do like you said: We need to just stick with the Word.

You are quoting Rev 13:8 and he quoted 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. KJV I post that just for info, knowing you just overlooked that by mistake.

I do not know about the bibles you are looking at, but I used to buy bibles from a publisher's warehouse that they sold to dealers that may have wrinkles on just one page or some small defect that they did not want to sell as first quality. I bought many of them brand new and sold them to others for what I gave for them. I paid 1/10th of the selling price then. I never remember paying over $3 for a leather bound reference bible. There was nothing in it or missing that was not in a first quality bible. Look through it good and buy it. A defect in the book will not cause a defect in the reader, but applying what is in the defected pages will align the believers walk with the Lord.

If this was so then this would take away from the aspect of God being all knowing. How could He warn me of something before it occurs if He is not on the other side of my life, watching a re-run so to speak. Nothing is unknown to God. God knew us before we were even in the womb !!! Why does it appear that an all knowing God would not know our lives, having it laid out before His eyes? I must not have made it clear, that was my reason for not agreeing with the post above mine. The verse I used shows that God knew what was going to happen in the psalmist life before his substance was even formed. Please re-read what I said. Your ways, being a Spirit Filled believer that hears God better always follow and know his ways for your life. You better have his wisdom as it's freely given to all men. That scripture was written to a backward and unsaved people. You don't want to put yourself in their shoes, not for a second. Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: I think the scripture already covers that, I never mentioned what he declared, yet you bring it up?? your friend Jacob There was never a scripture that says God is all knowing, that was my point of what I posted. God defines very clearly what he knows, and very clearly what he did not. There is no scripture that says our lives are laid out before him. We make a lot of things up, that are not scripture. What God did know was us before we were even conceived. He knows all about our heart, He knows every thought, He could pinpoint us in less than a nano second if he need to find us, He knows how many grains of sand, how many stars, how many hairs on your head. What he said he knows, for his Word never fails, and always comes to pass. He see's the snare of the fowler to get us (Psalm 91), he knows Satan's Plans for us. He sets up safety nets far into the future for us, The Holy Spirit warns us of things to come, danger ahead. He directs us to people that seem innocent, but through them years later many lives are made better, his wisdom and understand surpasses our comprehension. yet, as I pointed out he Told Eli of his plan. A plan to make his family the priesthood, a great plan that was the best plan. It would have blessed Eli's family for generations, and God spent time to train and raise up this family of priest that Eli was in charge of. God has never made a bad plan, never made a bad choice. Yet. 1Sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed. What God said and planed, did not happen because of mans choice to not honor him. God does not set things up, plan, and purpose things for failure. To say God knew Eli would not honor him, is to say God on purpose makes bad choices, and it's his will that people not obey him. That thinking is contrary to so many scriptures. That is the point I was trying to make when we talk about Limited Atonement for only people God has picked and chosen. There is more about our Father in heaven that Religion has covered up. We made our Father to be like we think a god is, and in reality, He is far different than what we say He is. For he Has told us several times that He never planed failure, nor considered it, and always has responded to mans actions with faith, hope, and Mercy that man will obey and do as He says. Jesus Is Lord. I will let it rest.

I don't see that logic being scriptural at all, or don't understand your reasoning. As I read that reasoning, God doesn't know everything before it happens. Ps 139:13 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.And in Your book they all were written,The days fashioned for me,When as yet there were none of them. God would not be omniscience if He did not know everything, nothing ever occurs to God, like this verse says, He knows before it happens. That does not mean we are living a scripted life, it just means His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts because His ways and thoughts are much higher than ours. The just live by faith, not by our own understanding. God tells us to ask in faith in prayer for our needs even though scripture says He know our needs before we ask. Everything that He said would happen before the world began happened just as He says.

The atonement first demonstrated was when the Lord told Moses to tell the people in Egypt to kill a lamb and take the blood and put it on the door posts and lintel and those that did would not be destroyed when He would strike the land of Egypt. Of course Jesus is the spotless Lamb of God who laid down His life for the forgiveness of sin of all who receive Him. Those are the elect who receive Him just like only those who believed God and put the blood on lintel and the two door posts were spared. No one is effected by Jesus atoning death who does not receive Him as Lord by faith. But what some others have said is about the same. But in effect no one that does not believe and trust Him has any of the benefit of His atoning death. So it all depends on the wording of the question asked. Was it only for the elect, yes. Which would force the next question, who are the elect, but that has created a flood of responses for the last 500 years. listen to them, I am right, no, I am, no you're wrong, I am not---------------O me!--I'm not going there.

Many have tried to show you that the scripture do verify that the word of God is the last new revelations from God. It looks like the ball is in your court, the bible doesn't day it is open, if so, where? But the proof is in the pudding, why don't you list only one new revelation that has occurred since the Apostles died and that will be a start to prove your point. When I asked about the scriptures used, no body responded, and when someone finally did, even though they don't agree with me, they turned around and said everybody had been using them out of context. applying a meaning that isn't there. Those verses never, not one time say GOD can't add to scripture. NOT ONCE. before I answer your question, what is the definition of revelation you are using, once I know that, I will answer your question about a new revelation. New revelation is something that has not been shown in scripture before from God. You can post any since the Apostles last wrote. I have personally never heard of one. I just read your post about Christ coming being a new revelation, you forgot to give the date and time otherwise all you have come up with is what scripture already has recorded. This is my last comment to you on this, I agree to disagree.

Many have tried to show you that the scriptures do verify that the word of God is the last new revelations from God. It looks like the ball is in your court, the bible doesn't day it is open, if so, where? But the proof is in the pudding, why don't you list only one new revelation that has occurred since the Apostles died and that will be a start to prove your point.

Would you cast the first stone? Love, Steven Casting the first stone is a bit different than listening to him... comment withdrawn

Thanks for the post. But the bible never says the gift of prophecy has ceased. If there are no new revelations, then there can be no dreams or visions either? Joel said in the last days God would pour out his spirit and young men would dream dreams and old men would have visions. How can this be, if there is no new revelations? Is this also an act of illumination and not revelation? Wouldn't the end of all new revelations mean the end of all Prophets and Apostles? If Apostles and Prophets are no more, then we have to get rid of pastors, teachers and evangilists as well. because they are a 5 fold minstry. they work together. Not really, pastors and teachers and evangelist are speaking forth the word of God, not giving new revelations. There are no Apostles of the Lord now. When they replaced Judas, what did they use as their guidelines for replacing him. The person had to have traveled with them during the time of the Lord(Acts 1:21-22 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”) and besides that it was prophesied in the OT that it would happen Ps 109:8 which is stated in Acts 1:20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his dwelling place be desolate. And let no one live in it". And the 5 fold ministry you speak of in Eph 4:11-16 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. From v12-16 it shows what their duties were to be and why, to build up the body of Christ that they not be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine from dishonest sources. If there are new revelations not already in scripture, tell me how one verifies it to be true. I know of no place in scripture that says we are to study to show ourselves approved except by studying the word of God, I would like to see it if I missed it. And someone ask where it says there are no new revelation after the Apostles, I simply ask where does it say there will be? We do have many places where it says that it is the word of God that transforms the mind. Peter echos the same about the word of God in 1Pet1:25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.” Let each be persuaded in their own mind.

No new prophesy or new revelations. What you describe about learning about new knowledge from God is new illumination from the Holy Spirit directing believers to how to apply the word of God in their lives. If it were new revelation there would be no way to check its accuracy and to verify that it is from God. We are encouraged to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The word is the lamp unto our feet and the light unto our path. No one has gained all the wisdom from scripture, why would we need more?

Then why is the i in TULIP, and what does irresistible mean?

Acts 16:30-31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” All in his household who believed were also saved. We must learn to trust the word above all other sources. 2 Cor 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. Nor by feelings or our own understanding even. It takes time to learn the word and to apply it. Pro 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,And He shall direct your paths. He will always do as He says, But the bottom line will always be, your assurance is His faithfulness and your walk of faith. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Lamentation 3:22-24 Through the Lord’s mercies we are not consumed, Because His compassions fail not. 23 They are new every morning; Great is Your faithfulness. 24 “The Lord is my portion,” says my soul, “Therefore I hope in Him!” An important lesson to learn is that every good thought and desire that comes into your heart will come from the Lord through the witness of the Holy Spirit to your spirit. He guides we learn to follow. Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. John 15:5b Without Me you can do nothing. The Lord gives the will to do and the power to do. Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. And that is why He always get the glory, what gets to heaven first comes down from heaven, 1 Cor 1:29-31 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.” 1 Cor 10:31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Learn to praise Him for all things(1Thess5:18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.) Because all good things or thoughts come from Him and those we believe to be contrary or of the flesh are to be rejected. Nevertheless, all things that He allows, you will learn that you can handle in Christ and it will build you up in the Lord, Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose, and 1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. Notice carefully the last part of this verse, that you may be able to bear it, not escape it always, but that you always will be able to bear it. So that when you are confronted and in the situation you know you can overcome it in Christ, but don't fall into the teaching that says you will never go through difficult situation. This is a lot to absorb but read it carefully and if it bears witness with the word, run with it. But remember, the just shall live by faith, Rom 1:17, Gal 3:11, Heb 10:38 and Habakkuk 2:4.

You can go to http://biblos.com/ and they have many study aids on there for free. Over 20 different translations of the Bible, and about that many different commentaries by popular writers of the past. You can also find a lot of free sites that let you read from their libraries on their Christian sites. If you like John MacArthur you can go to the Grace to You site and listen to every sermon that he has preached over the past 40 at his church for free. He has quite a few sermon from Revelations here: http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/scripture/revelation. You can listen to them from your computer or download them free to your mp3 player. The best study aid that I like and use is called The New Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge and I have it on a CD that has several bible translations and I open it and the NKJ which I use and every time I click on a verse in NTofSK it opens the bible to that verse and it will really open up the understanding of the verses like nothing else that I have ever used. They have that on the biblos.com but you have to turn to the verses in your Bible.

It is very difficult to put everything that needs to be said in these short spaces without flooding the post. What works for one may not be the next persons method, nevertheless they work for that person. I do find it very valuable as I am just reading the bible for a daily reading to write down a verse if it will help me in particular in my walk with the Lord and then I memorize that verse and not to lose that verse or other verses I would go over them every day and if I had a new one to learn I would do that one first and then beginning in my mind I would start in Genesis and go through the verses I knew in book order and this I would do 5 days a week while driving to work, sometimes during the day and on the way back home. It was a 45 minute drive. The Psalmist does say in Ps 119:11 "Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against you". This to me was a wonderful blessing and God did and does bless those who follow His advise. For the one who started the OP, Simon Peter, you may know but if not, that it is the Lord that gives you ever good idea to pursue that is pleasing to Him, Phil 2:13 For it is God working in you, to will and to do of His good pleasure. John 15:5b without Me you can do nothing. Therefore the desire to hunger and thirst for His word abiding in you, is from Him and if you pursue that earnestly His word will not return unto Him void in you but will accomplish that for which He sent it to you. And that is to build you up in the faith. But it is like a young child, one step at a time until you can not only walk swiftly but run with the wind in your face and by hiding His word in your heart, you can come against any temptation with the method that He used when the devil tempted Him in Luke 4 and Matt 4, He answered in v4,7,10 by using the scripture as His reply. Phil 2:13 is a good one to start with, but that is every persons choice to their need.

I had never heard of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals but seeing as how they are mentioned I looked up their view and here is an answer to the question about Lordship salvation that I found: Is the Alliance for or against Lordship Salvation? I think I may confidently state that there is no one affiliated with the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals who takes a stand against the basic ideas of lordship salvation. That is, we firmly assert that one must have Jesus as Lord in order to have Him as Savior. The New Testament could not possibly be clearer on this matter -- see Luke 9:23-24, Ephesians 2:10, Romans 8:3-4, just for starters. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone apart from works. But we are saved to do good works, so that a professing believer who bears no fruit has no biblical grounds to hope for salvation. "We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves never is alone." Here is how we properly relate Paul's teaching on justification and James' teaching. Paul insists that works are joined to faith but not to justification. That is, to summarize Galatians, “Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for ‘The righteous shall live by faith’” (Gal. 3:11), and “In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6). Faith in Christ alone justifies, but that faith works through love. Therefore, while Paul asserts that we are justified by a living faith alone, James denies that we are justified by a dead faith. Paul's affirmation and James' denial go hand in hand to present justification by faith alone, which faith always works. Personally as I have stated before, I would whole heartily agree with what this answer states, for what that's worth. I only post it to maybe show what is being talked about on the subject of Lordship salvation from my viewpoint and others who might use this as a guide line. Because when I posted what I said in my other post I had never read this but reading it one can see my understanding walks hand in hand with this answer.

Repentance to me is best described in this passage and is produced by the convicting power of the word of God and the Holy Spirit in the heart of the sinner to bring them to Jesus for salvation. This demonstrates true repentance and its result, 1 Thess 1:9-10 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. But in essence one cannot do good works until after they are saved. And I do not know where others got their understanding of Lordship salvation but it is not believing that the sinner works their way into salvation. Lordship salvation as written by John MacArthur was that once a person gives their life to Jesus Christ by grace through faith is that the result will be that the person will do as the above passage says, they will, with a strong emphasis on will, turn from a life living in the flesh and begin to grow in the grace and knowledge and lifestyle that is Christlike. Though not perfectly but it will and should be as the scriptures say in Romans 8 and others places, God will be transforming believers into the image of His dear Son, Jesus Christ while here on earth. It is progressive and different progress is made, but those on the other side that John MacArthur was speaking against were and are teaching that one can accept Jesus as their Savior, but not as the Lord of their lives and even after making a profession of faith they can still live a life in the flesh and even deny that Jesus is their Savior and they would still be saved because they once accepted Him as their Savior. This was it in a condensed form, and to say that one can be saved and later deny Christ as their Savior and never produced the fruit of righteousness by the Holy Spirit in their lives from my viewpoint is never taught in scripture. Many scriptures are plain in this teaching, why call Me, Lord, Lord and do not the things I say, Luke 6:46 and Matt 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! Good works are a result of salvation not the cause of salvation, Lordship salvation does not teach salvation by works but that good works will follow conversion. At least this is my understanding of what John MacArthur wrote and I have discussed this with several times with those who take the opposing view and they claim that Lordship of the believers life is expected but not mandatory for believers who only accept Him as Savior. Personally I don't know how anyone could come up with such an idea from reading the scriptures.

Much has been said and agreed to about the promise coming through the Seed, that is Christ Jesus by faith which is true and there are many Jews who have given their hearts to the Lord by faith in His finish work of reconciling the believer to the Father. But that does not exclude what scripture says about in the latter days, He will restore Israel back into the vine from which it was severed because of unbelief. I did not want to post all that is said on this but this should suffice to demonstrate the point and I have highlighted what I believe stresses my point on this restoration of the lost ones of Israel and to show that Paul by the Holy Spirit makes this point abundantly clear that this passage is referring to restoring those that are lost but will by faith receive their salvation in Christ Jesus and these come out of the tribulation and I believe along with the saints the Lord will set up His earthly kingdom of a 1000 years and then the end will come after that last releasing of Satan and the short rebellion of the nations. Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Rom 11:11-36 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?” 35 “Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?” 36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. What is clear is that the covenant made to Abraham must be thoroughly studied to make sure that each side of God's covenant with him is correctly applied. On this side of glory there will be no universal agreement as to who is completely right. I am sure some may even disagree with my post here. Amen! or O me!

Heb 9:23-25 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— NKJ Thomas Nelson Publishing. V23 is telling us that Christ as our High Priest did not go into the holy of holies as the Levite high priest would do with a blood sacrifice once a year which was a copy on earth of the heavenly temple, but He went into heaven itself by His once for all sacrifice for sin which was Himself. He was not only the High Priest who offered the sacrifice but He was the sacrifice, the spotless Lamb of God who is now in heaven making intercession for the saints. There are those that do believe as you that He actually took His blood and offered it on the altar in heaven but there are many who do not believe that to be literal. But as Shiloh has said, heaven did not need a cleansing.

Show me some scripture that say "Steven went to heaven" We must remember that Jesus is our example and all that happened to him will happen to us which means that we will first decend into the lower reaches of the earth before we are raised from the grave. What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? He said "this day you shall be with me in paradise" now we all know that Jesus first decended and since the thief went with Christ that very death which is the day of His death, the thief went with Christ into Paradise. Desiring "to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: IS A LONG WAYS FROM BEING CLOTHED WITH OUR HEAVENLY CLOTHING. Well read this again What did Stephen see before being stoned ? - Jesus Was this not Jesus coming for him ? - sure Stephen was a educated man in the Gospel and asked Jesus to come and get him he knew his body was going to die. So the flesh died and Stephen moved out a live spirit and went to heaven and not to be naked he got an heavenly body. Why would you want to raise a dead body when you are already alive in heaven ? God has to speak a body back into existence so that ____________________________ ? what purpose ? If the body is going to be raised from the grave and then changed into a heavenly body anyway, why come back down here and be dead again and be resurrected from out of the ground, just get it while you are already up there. I think you are right about Stephen going to be with the Lord, but where you got the idea that he got a new body already is not in the scriptures. And why would he be naked, its his spirit that went to heaven. In Rev 6:11 and 7:9 they were wearing a white rob it says. New bodies are not given until the resurrection of the bodies as Paul talks about in 1 Cor 15. The purpose is because that is how God said it would happen.

The idea of changing its meaning did not come from my posting it. Why would I, if scripture does not support an idea, it cannot be verified as coming from God. Let's look at what at how the Holy Spirit describe antichrist by John: 1John2: 18-23 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. This is the spirit of antichrist which indwells all those who oppose Jesus Christ and the Father. And as v22 declares that the ones that do this are liars and scripture says that the Devil is a liar from the beginning. And just as he possessed Judas he will do during the tribulation in the beast and the false prophet, both of whom have the spirit of antichrist within them as we shall see John describe those who deny Christ in chapter 4 in another paragraph later. But here I want to show the beast and the false prophet doing the work of their father, the one behind all liars, the Devil. Rev 19:19- Chapter 20:1-3 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. Chapter 20 1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. These two, the beast and the false prophet along with Satan thrown into the bottomless pit during the Kingdom reign of Christ. As I asked before and got no answer, I ask again, where do these events fit into your theory of when the tribulation was 2000 years ago. Was the devil bound, is he free now? And it is clear to see that the spirit of antichrist indwells these two, and that spirit is their father, the devil as Jesus told those who opposed Him, you are of your father, the devil. John 8:42-44 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 1John 4:1-6 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. This adds to the chapter 2 passage as to why believers test the spirits, and that is by the Holy Spirit leading our hearts and minds and knowing and applying the word of God. Those that are attempting to purposely mislead the saints are doing the work of their father, the devil, as John describes the beast and the false prophet. Which brings this question to mind concerning your explanation that the tribulation already has happened. The two prophets of God who will be killed and who had power from God to destroy those who came against them when it was God's purpose and they were killed and then raised back to life, when did these events take place in your tribulation time? 2 John 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. So reading from these passages where does it negate what I have said will happen during the 7 years of tribulation when it comes to pass as John has been shown by the Lord, after all it is the Revelations of Jesus Christ. Unless it is something specific this will end my response on the subject, let each one who reads what I have posted and if it does not bear witness to the truth, they can reject it without my taking no offense.