bfloydo

Define it in two ways for the purpose of this thread - as a church (congregation of people) and as a building / place of worship. Both definitions suffice. I guess that all Christians are the Church, but to the logistics of a particular community, this is not relevant. I think it is most relevant, for it helps to guide us in our treatment, giving, and helping others in the community. One thing I have often pondered with many churches is the thought of gathering to worship God. Well, I thought the command was to Love.... Love to me is a very close personal relationship, and often in a Loving relationship... time alone together, to express that Love is manifested in flesh as well as spirit... BTW I enjoy attending different churches and homes for fellowship but, If I am to receive discipline or express my deepest Love for God .... I prefer to do that alone, for the company of others is nothing more than an unwanted distraction.

Perhaps, a good lesson for those who want to dole out judgment in times that call for giving(even to innocent children)? Looks like she is getting a healthy does of her own medicine in the public & media.... Thank God for all things work to his glory!

In my opinion one person's soul is the main church. The two or three gathered brings to mind the two or three witnesses to convict a person. I consider the flesh(mind) and the spiritual(soul) as two differing and often conflicting entities. When these two are joined in agreement and written upon our heart, we have a congregation with God in attendance. Even Jesus said the Father was his witness(in his soul) and he also told us to go off alone and pray to the father.... I don't think he would have said this if he knew God wouldn't hear or answer..... to me the heart, mind, and soul must be in agreement in selfless Truth and within God's will..... for a prayer to be answered in the manner we ask...... If our heart, mind, and soul are not in line with what might be a foolish flesh desire then, in effect we have 2 or 3 witnesses(within our flesh church) against what we ask.... and are in conflict with what our path with God should be.

We are all slaves to that which our hearts and minds desire most. That which we would surrender last is what we have bound ourselves to the most. Anyone who believes they are in charge of their own destiny, has put a fool at the helm of his ship. The ship now steered by a fool, is forever lost in the sea of foolish desire. Anyone who has submitted and enslaved themselves to God's will, has put their love and trust in that which alone can bring the ship home safely. So in response to your question, I feel like I am along for the ride and learning how to help with duties on the ship. I never know what the ship will be subjected to in the tomorrows ahead but, I know that my only Hope is with God at the helm of my vessel.

My main suggestion was to follow the examples Jesus used very often.... To ask questions, of those we seek to help... so that they can self-reflect and see the error of their ways... as was the case in the adulteress who many sought to judge and stone but, walked away after self reflection and Judged not. Asking questions helps us gain better understanding of those we seek to help, and in Truth only the individual we seek to help can change themselves... it is my belief a question is better received and taken inside for reasoning than Judgment. I confess I really don't know what a church is. Is it the synagogues Jesus and many apostles preached in? Is it the 1st formation in the 300"s that sought to unify the roman empire's religion and kill all that kept or preached other Gospels? Is it the church that ruled during the inquisition? Should I question why many of Paul's writing's where canonized and none of the Gospels that promoted individual relationships got included? Is "the church" one of the hierarchy's in the 30,000 plus fractions of Christian denominations ? It is easy to get confused, especially when you consider all the language translations and then add on top of that at least 40+ different interpretations(Biblegateway.com)(May God help us if there is ever a Politically Correct version...lol)...... On top of this, one must ask the motivation for these changes and sort thru what maybe Leaven...... I choose to believe in a personal relationship and Jesus promise of "the Spirit of Truth" I also look forward to God's promise in Jeremiah 31:34 a time when contentions are put to rest, and churches, teachers/ preachers, will not be needed for all will know the Lord from the least to the greatest. It's a good suggestion to follow Jesus's example. I was talking to someone yesterday about this and she said there are over 100 questions posed by Jesus in the Gospels. She has been a Sunday School teacher for over 50 years and her class was wanting her to teach in more of a monologue than in a discussion. I found that interesting. As to the discussion on the Church I've started this thread here: order not to derail this thread on Matthew 7:1. I agree it will be wonderful when Christ returns and makes all things new. Then we will worship God, be without sin, and continue to be taught by God's Holy Spirit the truth. God bless, GE May God Bless the children, whom we can learn much from. I think the lesson to be learned from the children is not unlike that which we seek..... One Teacher, no opinions or discussions, only Truth. Reminds me of Jesus saying (NKJV) Matthew " Assuredly, I say unto you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as a little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven ". If you get a chance could you tell this teacher a stranger(me) would like to thank her for all her years caring & giving to our most precious gift from God, our children. May God Bless us all... his children "B"

I know that God alone can measure our Love.The greatest Love I can comprehend is to Love our enemies... Loving those in whom we often receive nothing but increased hatred in return, and many times the hatred and resentment grow, as you give Love and receive increased hatred and resentment. This Love is manifest in " Forgive them for they know not what they do ". I confess, I concern myself more with how woefully short I am in Loving God. I pray often for God to show me how I may Love him better, and the simple answer seems to be in "that, that you do unto the least of my brethren, so do you unto me" ... it matters not whether the least is spiritually or materially deprived, it matters that we recognize all that we are is of; God's Love, Grace, and Mercy. We ought give freely what God has given freely to us, with a glad heart..... Its amazing to me that God has so intertwined our Love for him as an outward expression of how we Love the least....... Loving the least or our enemies would seem backwards a world absorbed in ME, ME, ME but, to me it our way to proceed forward down the narrow path of perfecting our Love......> As to your question, I can only answer for self......... I do not Love as much as I should, I have much more room for improvement, I Trust that God is not done molding and teaching me, or I would not be here to write these words. Much Love to all my brothers and sisters

And because He was a rabbi, some believe He may have been the head of the synagogue in Caperneum. Did he not rent the veil so they we can enter and speak directly to Jesus/ God's?..... if we accept him carrying the burden of our sins, why would we allow anything or anyone to come between us? It is also written that " everyone who wants to live a Godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted " 2 Timothy 3:12 Perhaps we ought be encouraging some of these people that feel persecuted in church, In Truth it could be they are on the correct path... who made man the Judge? Paul also wrote " and having food and clothing, with these we shall be content " 1 Tim 6:8 I have never seen this contentment in any church leaders but, I have on the streets with poor believers.

I guess what was confusing me is that you said it wasn't about being hurt, but about being spiritually deydrated. And then after that, you brought up being wounded. If the issue is that you have been wounded, then I understand the inability to trust and the need to perhaps take some time out in order to heal. It is not my intention to fix your problem. . I was addressing the issue of spiritual dehydration. My point was that you can't blame that on how the pastor preaches, nor can you blame it on the mistakes the worship team made, or any of that. Spiritual dehydration is an issue that bears directly on our one-to-one relationship with God. I was not blaming you for what other people did or didn't do. I understand your frustration with how some churches operate. I understand spiritual dehydration because I have been there. But I had to get to the point where I took responsibility for it and looked to the Lord for the solution. The only person that was inhibiting my walk with the Lord was me. The Lord wasn't holding out on me, and no one else can dampen my fellowship with the Lord without my permission. There is something to be said for being able to worship the Lord in an atmosphere that isn't ideal or even conducive to worship. Can I worship the Lord even when the worship team doesn't get it right? Joy is not circumstantial; it doesn't depend on the conditions around me being right. My thirst for the Lord can only be quenched by the Lord. To be clear, it is not the pastor's job to quench your spiritual thirst. The pastor's job is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. Our ability to remain spiritually hydrated is dependent solely on our personal walk with God. It appears that you are blaming the problem on others when what you need to do is examine whether or not there is anything in your life that is keeping you thirsty. That is not me trying to fix whatever problem you have. Simply pointing to what may be the actual cause. The "fix" is between you and the Lord. I understand the sandpaper analogy, but do you think it is a fair analogy? I can see going to certain kinds of churches being like sandpaper; but it is it fair to lump all churches in that basket? Churches are made up of flawed, fickle people. It would be nice to find a church where there are no personality conflicts, where no one's flesh gets in the way, where the worship is always dynamic and every sermon is a homerun and always personally relevant and addresses all of the needs in the people. It would be nice to be in a church where everyone served each other from completely pure motives, where Christian/brotherly love ruled 24/7 and there was no gossip, and everyone had good communication skills. But that ideal church doesn't exist. If all of the conditions have to be right, would any of us go to church? I think its a fair analogy. How do you think Jesus felt in his time ? They hated him, wanted to stone him, and though they didn't crucify him... they turned him over to be crucified..... and why? because, he taught and stood up for the Truth which they hated, it infuriated those who sought to receive the glory, money, and praise due only God....... I doubt many so called Christian churches would fair much better if Jesus attended their services......what do you think? sandpaper seems child's play compared to being crucified !?! The church he built is our soul, the preacher he promised(and said best he die so we can receive) is the "Spirit of Truth" God said " cursed is the man that trusts in flesh" Jesus said " flesh profits nothing" so why do so many follow flesh?? The ideal church does exist, just as the kingdom of heaven.... it is within you, not without..... Colossians 1:26 wow what a great simple mystery Forgive me for being a bit curt but, the argument of not going to church as I do, is somehow wrong...This is wearing thin on me.It is an argument conceived by those who believe a close personal relationship with God must be accompanied by a relationship with man and his sticks, bricks, and stone church.... for Christ's sake, which man or church did Jesus attend so that he might please his Father in heaven?

1. “keep Judgment of others contained within” So if we know something to be wrong (i.e. a brother is in habitual sin) we shouldn’t judge that they need to be challenged and leave the results up to God? I do agree we should control our tongues and in particular not speak in anger. 2. Depending on the tone of the question it can be taken as judgement. However, I do see what you mean. Questions are always less accusatory and more inquisitive in nature. 3. I agree we’re to learn from all things but particularly God’s Word – the greatest command is love God and love people. Sometimes loves means confronting others and not passively standing by. Our job as Believers is to warn others of their folly and leave the results up to God. If I see someone drowning because they're not attempting to float shouldn't I at least warn them? Interesting discussion. To those you Love the most are you most certain to Judge the least!! For whom you Love in Truth you seek understanding and reconciliation, certain you are, to not use Judgment in reconciling with those you truly love. Those in Truth seek to walk the path together helping and encouraging those that may have stumbled, knowing that those that stumbled have taught you more than you have gained helping them along the path.....

Jesus spoke stern warnings to some. His statements were made for those who thought they were something (teachers of the law who thought their own righteousness could save them) to realize in God’s eyes everyone is the same – sin is still sin even if it packaged differently. Denying their need for a Savior (Messiah) by counting on their own justification instead of relying on Jesus’s was their biggest sin. What do you think? I think God will Judge them by their own words, actions, and motives.... as he will all...I do not know their hearts, minds, or souls as God certainly does. I do not know if they prayed for forgiveness for sins(as we all have). I will focus my Judgment on the only person that I am given to Judge(with any measure of Truth) in my heart, mind, and soul........... myself, hoping and praying that God will free me from this flesh that strives against the spirit. The parable to me means God's Truth was given and the man decided to keep it hid away. He feared the backlash of others who would not like this Truth God gave him to plant in others. He did not profit, nor did he bear fruit .... he loved the world and its profits more than God and his profits.... my interpretation ne way?

1. Questions: We may not be able to judge a person's motivation but can we judge the fruit (spirit or flesh) in a person's life? If so, should we do so? (Galatians 5:16-26) Further another question based on what you've said brother: If there is no righteous judgement in the Church (again based on the fruits or evidence in people's lives, actions, and words) how can there be Church disicipline? (Matthew 18:15-20) 2. What if we're not judging in self-righteous judgment? What if we're trying (our motivation) to help others see the error of their ways in a spirit of gentlness, kindness, graciousness in an effort to restore a brother or sister to a closer walk with God? (Galatians 6:1-5) The thoughts on the #3 deserver a seperate post I believe. My main suggestion was to follow the examples Jesus used very often.... To ask questions, of those we seek to help... so that they can self-reflect and see the error of their ways... as was the case in the adulteress who many sought to judge and stone but, walked away after self reflection and Judged not. Asking questions helps us gain better understanding of those we seek to help, and in Truth only the individual we seek to help can change themselves... it is my belief a question is better received and taken inside for reasoning than Judgment. I confess I really don't know what a church is. Is it the synagogues Jesus and many apostles preached in? Is it the 1st formation in the 300"s that sought to unify the roman empire's religion and kill all that kept or preached other Gospels? Is it the church that ruled during the inquisition? Should I question why many of Paul's writing's where canonized and none of the Gospels that promoted individual relationships got included? Is "the church" one of the hierarchy's in the 30,000 plus fractions of Christian denominations ? It is easy to get confused, especially when you consider all the language translations and then add on top of that at least 40+ different interpretations(Biblegateway.com)(May God help us if there is ever a Politically Correct version...lol)...... On top of this, one must ask the motivation for these changes and sort thru what maybe Leaven...... I choose to believe in a personal relationship and Jesus promise of "the Spirit of Truth" I also look forward to God's promise in Jeremiah 31:34 a time when contentions are put to rest, and churches, teachers/ preachers, will not be needed for all will know the Lord from the least to the greatest.

Your question assumes that the only purpose in life is to consume for ones own self so I shall answer in that respect for the purpose of illuminating the truth about such a purpose. The Serpent said You Can Become Gods. The life of consuming for self is the life lived as if what the Serpent said is true. The purpose of that life then is to be your own God and deny God his rightful place in your life. Yes, that life has a purpose, one with a tragic ending. Solomon said it best. The purpose of life is to obey God and do his will. But please understand that that entails consuming all that God would have one to consume. Solomon also taught about this earlier in his book on preaching. A question assumes nothing, its purpose was for self-reflection. I agree obey God and do his will..... I said the same thing as you, only in a different way... I can get a dog to obey me but, it does not mean the dog loves me. If one loves God with all their heart, mind and soul then they obey out of Love not Fear. BTW, I believe Jesus a better Teacher than Solomon, so my humble opinion is; Jesus said it best in his 2 commands. I see you are from In. that's where I came to know God for the 1st time, Evansville... and then my one and only testimony was in Goshen, In. ... lots of fine folks there, thanks for your comments. Peace

1. What do you think of Matthew 7:1 and judging? 2. Now, go back and read the entire passage in context. What have you learned? See Matthew 7 for context. 3. Do you agree or disagree with the comment from reasons.org? 1.) I think we should not judge anything God created, except self. If we do, we judge God's purpose in his creations. In self-judgment, reflection, and correction we seek our own purpose which is God's Will for us. 2.) If we Judge(with our mouth) we push aside God's righteous judgment for our own self-righteous Judgment ... we have become a fool and will stand self-condemned by our own mouth. 3.) I disagree with the comments, and look to Jesus words and actions to clarify. " Out of your own mouth I will Judge you, you wicked servant " Luke 19:22 " As I hear, I judge: and My Judgment is righteous, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the Father who sent me " John 5:30 " consistently biblical manner "?? if this means you know with certainty its God's will for you to Judge, I'll buy it. Otherwise I think its best to do as Jesus said and not Judge. It seems to me Jesus gave us the best examples of how to handle ourselves concerning Judgment. 1.) Control your tongue -- keep Judgment of others contained within 2.) If you seek to help another, speak it as a Question, so that they may self - reflect .. and you have avoided Judging 3.) Seek always the lessons to be Learned, for we are told to even Love our enemies. Judgments come in the form of statements, and most of the times Jesus spoke statements ... vipers, brood of vipers, white washed tomb stones ect. they where directed at the Teachers/ Preachers of the day............... I believe his words are prophetic and is the case today, and also the reason we are warned that few should strive to Teach, for their judgment will be the harshest. We should rebuke sin, Love the sinner, Love our enemies..... for we don't know what God has prepared for anyone's future(including our own) Consider Stephen, ask that the sin of killing him be forgiven. Saul/ Paul was one that witnessed this...many early Christians had to overcome their Judgment of Saul/ Paul. The man Paul was sent to for sight, contended a little but, did as God ask of him...... prayed over his enemy(who given time would become a great ally). Blessing "B"

Thoughts, I welcome yours. Love is an emotion displayed thru words, actions and thoughts. If, I believe in Jesus and his words( and I do ), I know two Commands(not a suggestion).... Love God & neighbors, God with all my heart and soul, neighbors as myself. Love and caring for one another is not just taught, it is Learned by example, and a willingness to give to another without regard to self.... The Bible gives us many, many examples in actions, stories, and parables to Learn from.... to me the best example in action, is Jesus. Many have ask ask " Why doesn't God just plug all this in for me, and not go thru all life's struggles?" -- To Learn Love and Truth, one must experience it and Live, it to Learn it. Would God not be deceiving a person, if he plugged it all in, and made you to feel you actually Lived and Learned? If you had a robot that you programmed to Love you (the best anyone knew how ), would that really make you believe you are Loved? Would it not just be words/ actions pre programmed? Even if we try to consider the best A.I.( Artificial Intelligence/ a computer that can Learn ) that is not yet available -- How could a computer properly Learn without all the senses to provide it input? If you had a child(who has free will), grow up... and one day come hug you & say " I Love you and Truthfully thank you for all the Lessons you taught me ".. would you feel Loved? If you have a Friend( and Lord ) who died so that you could Live and Learn, would that make you feel Loved? If the only purpose in Life is to consume for oneself, does that Life really serve any purpose? Conclusion - Our purpose is to Live, Learn, and help our brothers and sisters along the way. If I Learn my Lessons, I get to go home and personally thank our Heavenly Father and tell him " I Love you ".

LOL, Your post made me think of all the good folk's and good/ bad times this southern guy had in Ok..... I worked for years at Liberty Glass, Sapulpa..Ok heck if it wasn't for Ok. I wouldn't have known or believed noodling, wore cowboy boots, bought a truck, busted my butt on black ice, met so many native American's, seen the play Oklahoma...outside, the giant praying hands at ORU, rooting for the sooners & cowboys, Eskimo Joe's, ect.. and met many, many down to earth folks... including Mary Fallin Gov. @ the time though she was running for Lt. Gov. It is a great state to live in.

Wanted to share some thoughts on my favorite church. God and I alone attend, making it impossible for any but God to contend. I prayed for the right words to describe my feelings to share with you all. I have gone to many churches and denominations, and God willing, will go to others for I truly enjoy fellowship in flesh. My favorite church is in my heart and mind, the foundation( which God laid ) within my soul. Though God waited patiently for me, for many years I did not go. Struggling in a world I hated so, I finally turned to God and ask him to deliver the final blow. He welcomed me within his house, arms opened wide. He lifted me up and lovingly stood me at his side. He showed me in this life I should expect a rough and rocky ride. He took my life, in a way I could not imagine, full of Love his son before me paid. He shows and teaches me how to build on the foundation, he alone laid. He feeds me and warns about the leaven, if I eat this I puff up, and keep myself from heaven. He is more than I can ever understand. Lord, in my times of fear and doubt, may I humbly hold your hand. The name of my church is " Freedom thru slavery(servitude)" May God bless us all...his creation and children.

Right, it's also my fault I left each service feeling exhausted. It's my fault I left feeling more depressed than I entered. It's my fault that I got used. It's my fault that I no longer learned anything from the sermons because the pastor was repeating old messages. It's my fault that worship always ended just as there was finally a spiritual breakthrough and we didn't get to enjoy the fruits of our labor to get there. Seriously, how would you like being told it was your fault that you got beat up? Well, that's how I'm feeling right now. You guys need to learn how to heal the wounded rather than shoot the wounded. I'm done here. Wow, conflicts on this thread bring this to verse to mind: Galatians 5:13 - 16 (The Voice) Brothers and sisters, God has called you to freedom! Hear the call, and do not spoil this gift by using your liberty to engage in what your flesh desires; instead, use it to serve each other as Jesus taught through love. For the whole law comes down to this one instruction: "Love your neighbor as yourself", so why all this vicious gnawing on each other? If you are not careful, you will find you've eaten each other alive! Here is my instruction : walk in the spirit, and let the spirit bring order to your life.

I think the simple key is ... God didn't command it ... the detestable thing is sin / going against God's will The flesh dies or raises at God's will, as said.. he even knows when a sparrow dies... God can be accounted for many flesh deaths but, there are always valuable lessons. Jesus said " the flesh profits nothing" willingly he accepted his death and God's will, he also carried the burden sin for all. Pharaoh had many chances and saw many miracles, but refused God's will. Lets try a real life example of a young child who is told by his adult parent " Do not play with fire, you could burn yourself and the whole family up by doing so. This is the Law for the child. The child see's the parent lighting a fire in the fireplace, and ask," why are you doing such a foolish thing, playing with fire?" The parent responds, " I am not playing with fire, I am using it for you and the families benefit." "Do you like a warm house, your meat cooked, Light in the darkness?" the child humbles himself, knowing he cannot use fire in this fashion and apologized. We should always come before God as even a child, just as Jesus said about children "such is the kingdom of heaven". Blessings "B"

Knock on the door and ask the Lord to open so you can get some fresh air..........

Interesting thoughts but they don't really address the questions... 1. What do you think of Proverbs 22:6? 3. Is there a difference between a promise and a proverb in the Bible? As to your comments... I do agree sometimes we forget that education is primarily the responsibility of the parent (s). Sometimes we want teachers or books to do all the education. What I've seen is that children often learn the most not by what I say but what I do in many instances. I would agree brother that I too pray my children don't make the same mistakes I have made. Perhaps as jobs became more specialized it was apparent that it was more efficient (perhaps not necessarily better) for children to be educated by others. I mean even 60-70 years ago there were still public schools. Farmers (say even pre-industrial revolution) didn't have time to teach children how to read and write. Much less history, sciences, etc. I do think that today parents take less responsibility for the training of children. Even in the church sometimes as a Sunday School teacher it surprised me how little interaction children had with their parents on even the basic Biblical stories - much less meatier subjects in Scripture. God bless, GE *To clarify I meant non school aged children sent off... these are very formative years 1.)The Purpose and Theme of Proverbs is pretty clearly stated in Proverbs 1 ( I have never seen promise used in defining proverb) I would think Solomon with all his wisdom did the best he could with his son Rehboam who followed him as king. This son was known for not listening to elders, brutal treatment to his people, and a division of Israel. One cant Learn unless they listen and take heed, this promise is laid out in the last few verses of proverbs 1.

Good points, of course in both cases they where raised and grief turned to Joy, both cases he said it would come to be....maybe he had thoughts of how much we grief needlessly, which might be rooted in our lack of or little faith.... maybe a mixture of all things mentioned in these posts but, all seem rooted in his Love for God's children.

1. What do you think of Proverbs 22:6? 2. On the flip side if a child is trained in a bad manner should it surprise us when their actions, words, thoughts, motivation, and such are evil? 3. Is there a difference between a promise and a proverb in the Bible? What saddens me is that in recent times ( aprox. last 60-70 years ) we seem to be turning the Job of Teaching over to others, as Dad's and Mom's both go off to work, leaving the child in others care. Throughout most of human history the this was not so. Maybe the first lesson many children Learn is that money, and material things have priority over them... I confess to my guilt in this matter and am trying to rectify some issues with my now adult children.... O how I pray for my children not to make some of the same mistakes their parents made. I know much of this started during the 2 world wars as many Jobs where filled by women, and many men where unavailable or dead.

Man in such a case perhaps just say that things had not gone as you would have hoped for but The Lord knows best..or just something along those lines. No-one would expect all the details or any in depth conversation ....just a little feedback would be appreciated. I never requested a prayer from anyone here but, you and many fine folks here are an answer to my prayers for some fellowship..... so I praise God for steering me this way and thank you for reminding me to openly praise him to others.............. Blessing "B"

I feel like there is a reason for two witnesses......Deuteronomy 17:6 "On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness." 2 Corinthians "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." There are more of this type verse most say " two or three witnesses" I see this as the final chance to hear Truth and Repent for sins, then perhaps the third witness arrives and many are put to death ---> Jesus

This seems simple to me. Two come to testify to the real Truth = the world hates them, because it is not the truth they want or believe. Thoughts?